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Thread: Vogel learning from his mistakes

  1. #1
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Vogel learning from his mistakes

    I know I wasn't the only one who almost lost it in the playoffs this spring. Vogel for some odd reason wanted to give opposing teams a chance by not playing his starters. Well it looks like he's learned from his atrocious mistake.

    http://www.indycornrows.com/2012/10/...oach-to-pacers

    "There were a number of positions last year that we sort of split down the middle, halfway with maybe a 28/20 split of the minutes or a 24/20 split of the minutes," Vogel said about last season's playing rotation. "I think this team is going to be more of a starter-owned team, with all of the starters averaging over 30 minutes and the bench guys averaging in the teens. But I definitely plan to take advantage of our depth."
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  3. #2
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    I am weeping tears of joy right now.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    We were heralded to have nearly historic depth (that we obviously didn't have), and I think Vogel may have gotten caught up in the hype. With the lockout shortened season and the idea that depth would be king because players would need to stay fresh, it made a lot of sense (minus the fact that our depth really wasn't that great).

    This year, I think we will be bringing two guys who are starter quality off the bench in Green and Augustin. Mahinmi is another guy who has a proven record as a successful backup filling a specific role. If Lance and Tyler can be worth anything this season, plus the addition of Plumlee, I will really feel good about the depth of this roster.

    That said, the starting 5 proved over and over that they could hang with anyone as a unit, and I'm ALL FOR more minutes for them and less for the bench. Not running egg-timer substitutions will be an important strategy as well. This team has many different skills available, and a number of interesting mixes that we could see on the court at a given time. We should be able to line up against anyone and have advantages somewhere on the court. So, not writing in stone how many minutes each guy should see nightly would allow us to utilize the different combinations and mismatches we can create. Hopefully this is something Vogel works on in his game-planning and game-management.
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    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Our depth last year was one of the biggest myths in the NBA. Outside of DC or Hill the rest of the bench was a pu pu platter. Dahntay gave us some good minutes, but we really needed offense from our wing bench guy. The front court, while full of "smashmouth" was a garbage can as far as talent is concerned.

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  9. #5

    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    I agree that the lockout helped influence this. But its good to see Frank realizes this was a mistake.

    The fact is that against the upper echelon teams, our starters have to be prepared to play more minutes. And luckily our bench should be capable of playing with a secured lead so we won't have to play the starters late into games where we have a secure lead.

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  11. #6
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    I didn't think the number of minutes he played the reserves was a mistake, but rather how he often went to an all reserve lineup. More mixing and matching would be as good idea.

    But I didn't think it was a big problem last year

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Our depth last year was one of the biggest myths in the NBA. Outside of DC or Hill the rest of the bench was a pu pu platter. Dahntay gave us some good minutes, but we really needed offense from our wing bench guy. The front court, while full of "smashmouth" was a garbage can as far as talent is concerned.
    I wouldn't go quite that far. If you compared our bench DEFENSE to previous years I think we were pretty deep, but the bench OFFENSE never gelled the way it should have. Onbe would have expected SOMEONE to be able to get hot each game instead of everyone being cold most of the time.
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Our bench defense featured Tyler Hansbrough. And still does unfortunately.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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  16. #9

    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Our bench defense featured Tyler Hansbrough. And still does unfortunately.
    Hopefully Miles bumps him out.

    And i think one of the reasons we went with an all reserve line up was without training camp, alot of the arrangement vogel would have wanted to go with had never played together. But I might be stretching on that one.

  17. #10

    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    I'm very anxious to find out what his rotations are gonna be like and if he pays attention to whos hot and whos Hansbroughing.

    10 man, that leaves the door wide open for Stephenson, who is the most familiar with our offense, to crack the rotation.

    I prefer a 9 man rotation so that there is always a starter on the floor and have the sixth and 7th man getting close to starter minutes but when u have sick depth I suppose it isn't a bad thing to make use of it...

  18. #11
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    I certainly hopes Miles doesn't bump Tyler out.

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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I certainly hopes Miles doesn't bump Tyler out.
    Why not?

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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  22. #13
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I didn't think the number of minutes he played the reserves was a mistake, but rather how he often went to an all reserve lineup. More mixing and matching would be as good idea.

    But I didn't think it was a big problem last year

    I think the only time it was a real problem was in the playoffs. He did not adjust during the playoffs and it hurt the team. The regular season is long so the bench can play more and keep the veterans fresh for extended minutes in the playoffs. Boston does a great job at this.
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  24. #14
    This has to be the year!
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    This is outstanding news..... This takes me back to games 4 & 6 of the Heat Series. Game 4 I believe we were up 10 heading into the 2nd quarter. We start the quarter with DC and the rest of the bunch from the bench while Miami started the quarter with both Wade and Lebron. Needless to say our lead was diminshed within 2 minutes of the quarter and we struggled the rest of the game. Playoff basketball is just that! Your best players play nearly the whole game. However I am glad that he spent the summer getting better as well. I love him as our coach!

  25. #15

    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Our starting five had a positive plus/minus against Miami overall, right? I am pretty certain Hibbert did as an individual. This is music to my ears as well. Our starting five is killer. They are underrated as a unit because Hill wasn't the starter until late inter season and the 28/20 split stuff. But people are gonna be shocked at how good they are together for a full 82 game slate at 30+ mins apiece.

  26. #16
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I didn't think the number of minutes he played the reserves was a mistake, but rather how he often went to an all reserve lineup. More mixing and matching would be as good idea.

    But I didn't think it was a big problem last year
    The line change has irritated me from the start of Vogel. I do not think it was a lockout thing. I think it has to do with him being a players coach. Which is not detrimental, but you can't lose sight of the goal. Which is winning.

    I want to see Tyler next to Roy more. And Paul next to Green. West next to Ian. And DJ with Danny.

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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Why not?
    That would mean Tyler is playing really bad

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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That would mean Tyler is playing really bad
    That would be different from how he played most of last season how exactly?

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
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  30. #19
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    For the record UB- I had no problem with the minutes during the regular season. I just expected the minutes to jump up big time in the playoffs but they never did.
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  32. #20
    Bring Back Bender bballpacen's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That would mean Tyler is playing really bad
    Or it would mean Miles is doing very well... Which I would enjoy eating that serving of crow...

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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    For the record UB- I had no problem with the minutes during the regular season. I just expected the minutes to jump up big time in the playoffs but they never did.
    Simply thanking this isn't enough.

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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    That would mean Tyler is playing really bad
    I hope he gets bumped out. DJ and Green will be the focus on the offense for the 2nd unit/bench. Plumlee can at least rebound, which would be a great help. Wouldn't have to try to give Tyler touches all the time and watch him brick or get blocked at the rim.
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Just like UncleBuck wrote, I didn't have a problem with the minutes guys were getting. With a shortened schedule, it was key for the Pacers to keep guys fresh. That was also the main reason that we didn't have so many injuries.

    However, the problem I had was switching out all the starters pretty much at once for the bench. That was just a huge mistake, and he got better as the year went along.

    I do hope Lance plays well and earns more playing time. He could really put us over the top if he could play more often like he did in the Bulls game.
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  39. #24
    Can see thru wooden doors dal9's Avatar
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Simply thanking this isn't enough.
    eh, it probably would have been.

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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Not for me. Makes me think about how silly the whole the "starters were the problem" and the more recent "starters got (I forget the actual term that was used but) killed."

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