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Thread: Vogel learning from his mistakes

  1. #26
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    At the start of and the season....I'm envisioning a 10 man rotation...as Vogel suggests with a 30/18 split:

    GHill ( 30 mpg ) / DJAugustin ( 18 mpg )
    PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) / LStephenson ( 18 mpg )
    DGranger ( 30 mpg ) / GGreen ( 18 mpg )
    DWest ( 30 mpg ) / THansbrough ( 18 mpg )
    Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 18 mpg )

    But I fully expect that this rotation will slowly be whittled down to a 9 man rotation as Vogel figures out what works and doesn't work as we get closer to the Playoffs.

    GHill ( 21 mpg ) / DJAugustin ( 27 mpg )
    PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) / GHill ( 9 mpg ) / GGreen ( 9 mpg )
    DGranger ( 30 mpg ) / GGreen ( 18 mpg )
    DWest ( 30 mpg ) / THansbrough ( 9 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 9 mpg )
    Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 18 mpg )

    My thought is that DJ and Green are too good to limit to 18 mpg and that Lance ( unless he totally breaks out ) is going to see his minutes reduced at the expense of the 2 of them. Add in that I expect that unless Hansbrough becomes far more consistent on the offensive end.....I can also see Hansbrough's minutes reduced as well with Mahinmi getting the bulk of the "1st Big Man off the bench" minutes.
    Last edited by CableKC; 10-02-2012 at 07:13 PM.
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  2. #27
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by CableKC View Post
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    At the start of and the season....I'm envisioning a 10 man rotation...as Vogel suggests with a 30/18 split:

    GHill ( 30 mpg ) / DJAugustin ( 18 mpg )
    PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) / LStephenson ( 18 mpg )
    DGranger ( 30 mpg ) / GGreen ( 18 mpg )
    DWest ( 30 mpg ) / THansbrough ( 18 mpg )
    Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 18 mpg )

    But I fully expect that this rotation will slowly be whittled down to a 9 man rotation as Vogel figures out what works and doesn't work as we get closer to the Playoffs.

    GHill ( 21 mpg ) / DJAugustin ( 27 mpg )
    PGeorge ( 30 mpg ) / GHill ( 9 mpg ) / GGreen ( 9 mpg )
    DGranger ( 30 mpg ) / GGreen ( 18 mpg )
    DWest ( 30 mpg ) / THansbrough ( 9 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 9 mpg )
    Hibbert ( 30 mpg ) / IMahinmi ( 18 mpg )

    My thought is that DJ and Green are too good to limit to 18 mpg and that Lance ( unless he totally breaks out ) is going to see his minutes reduced at the expense of the 2 of them. Add in that I expect that unless Hansbrough becomes far more consistent on the offensive end.....I can also see Hansbrough's minutes reduced as well with Mahinmi getting the bulk of the "1st Big Man off the bench" minutes.
    I'm right there with you. I can def see a 9 man rotation, but I fully expect Lance to play better. It'll be very interesting to see how things play out. Any time Hans plays less than 10min/game is a win in my book.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

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  3. #28

    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    One of the interesting things to see with Stephenson possibly playing more is how that works with him and Augustin on the court at the same time. Both are poor perimeter shooters and Green is potentially the only good shooter on the second unit, which could create some ugly offense.

    It's another reason, I think, to try Augustin with the first unit more and Hill with the second unit, where he'd be needed more as a shooter and scorer.

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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    I'm right there with you. I can def see a 9 man rotation, but I fully expect Lance to play better. It'll be very interesting to see how things play out. Any time Hans plays less than 10min/game is a win in my book.
    Unless Mahinmi and Miles shows up with some hidden and unknown offensive game....I don't see Hansbrough being eliminated from the rotation. Of course....unless Granger is shifted over to play a few backup PF minutes. The only way that I can see this happening is if Lance totally convinces Vogel that he should play 18+ mpg with and we do what the Heat does and play a lineup like the Heat does.
    Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.

    This is David West, he is the Honey Badger, West just doesn't give a *****....he's pretty bad *ss cuz he has no regard for any other Player or Team whatsoever.

  5. #30
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Until Tyler learns to set solid screens, seal his defender in the paint, and box out he will struggle to be what the Pacers need. He could shoot 52% from the field, but struggle to get a good rebound rate. That would be worse for us than if he average 6 boards a game and shot 41% from the field.

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  7. #31
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie fan View Post
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    One of the interesting things to see with Stephenson possibly playing more is how that works with him and Augustin on the court at the same time. Both are poor perimeter shooters and Green is potentially the only good shooter on the second unit, which could create some ugly offense.

    It's another reason, I think, to try Augustin with the first unit more and Hill with the second unit, where he'd be needed more as a shooter and scorer.
    DJ has performed poorly shooting the ball, and frankly it is unrealistic to expect him to turn it around, but he is easily the most skilled shooter on the second unit. While Green did an excellent job of picking his spots in half a season with the Nets last season, DJ is a pure shooter. Dude has a beautiful stroke, and if he carefully chooses his shots, he'll be lights out from downtown this season.
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    I think a lot of people are getting too hyped for DJ.

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  10. #33

    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I didn't think the number of minutes he played the reserves was a mistake, but rather how he often went to an all reserve lineup. More mixing and matching would be as good idea.

    But I didn't think it was a big problem last year
    yes, this^
    many times when we went from all starters to all bench- we ran into trouble. it really showed itself in the heat series.

  11. #34
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Based on the report from Day 1 of camp, Vogel kept the bench together as a unit even to the point of having Young sub for Danny when Danny sat out to rest his knee.

    I can think of some legitimate reasons to do that, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't concern me a little. At the minimum it tells me he still plans to platoon the bench for significant amounts of time - maybe not as much as last year, but it certainly doesn't indicate he is focusing on mixing the starters and bench. After all, he could have kept the other starters together and brought someone else up from the bench unit to play 3 if that was the purpose.
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Based on the report from Day 1 of camp, Vogel kept the bench together as a unit even to the point of having Young sub for Danny when Danny sat out to rest his knee.

    I can think of some legitimate reasons to do that, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't concern me a little. At the minimum it tells me he still plans to platoon the bench for significant amounts of time - maybe not as much as last year, but it certainly doesn't indicate he is focusing on mixing the starters and bench. After all, he could have kept the other starters together and brought someone else up from the bench unit to play 3 if that was the purpose.
    I think it is not a cause for concern. Right now they are running through drills and scrimmaging. The new guys are running the sets for the first time. Why not do that together with the starting core defending, and Young (who is defensive minded) in with them.

    I do not think this is an indicator of sub patterns for the season. And neither will be anything in the preseason, unless noted by Vogel. I am one of the biggest critics of the line change subs, but I don't think this is an indicator of what is to come.

  14. #36

    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Based on the report from Day 1 of camp, Vogel kept the bench together as a unit even to the point of having Young sub for Danny when Danny sat out to rest his knee.

    I can think of some legitimate reasons to do that, but I'd be lying if I said it didn't concern me a little. At the minimum it tells me he still plans to platoon the bench for significant amounts of time - maybe not as much as last year, but it certainly doesn't indicate he is focusing on mixing the starters and bench. After all, he could have kept the other starters together and brought someone else up from the bench unit to play 3 if that was the purpose.
    It's also an entirely new bench with returning starters.

    Although I hope he's able to mix and match starters and bench, I do think they will be together as a unit some. That's been Vogel's coaching choice for two seasons now. (I don't really have an issue with that, so long as the pieces fit. ) So I'm sure he wants them to be able to gell as much as possible.

    I think it'll be a lot easier for Vogel not to go to his bench so much this season. The makeup of last season, particularly with West being injured, didn't allow him to play 30+ minutes a game, and you had to play Hans more. We also wanted to give Hill starters minutes, which came at the cost of PG and Collison (for most of the season, until DC was replaced.)

    Vogel doesn't have those issues, except with DJ. But even then, it's not going to shock me if we just end up with a 3 guard rotation, so all of them are getting "starters minutes."

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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Lest hope Vogel learns how to guard Lebron and Wade by stop going over the screen time and time again.

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    I know this is something I complained about last season, so I'm glad they're taking a look at it in training camp. These are the things that make me more comfortable with Vogel at the helm.

    http://www.indystar.com/article/20121004/SPORTS04/210050319/Pacers-take-smash-mouth-basketball-another-level?nclick_check=1

    by Mike Wells

    The Indiana Pacers have taken smash-mouth basketball to another level, with assistant video coordinator
    Jhared Simpson wearing football shoulder pads in practice during a screening drill. Assistant coach Jim Boylen pitched the idea to coach Frank Vogel. Boylen got the drill from Michigan State coach Tom Izzo, whose teams have a blue collar reputation. Boylen also used it when he coached at the University of Utah.

    "It's a reference point type drill," Boylen said. "You want to make the pad click. It gave our guys the freedom to smack somebody without anybody getting hurt. It also gave them a good feel for what a solid screen feels like."

    The objective of the drill was to try to help the Pacers set better screens. They have struggled in that area over the years.
    "That was the idea," Vogel said. "Maybe we'll become a better screening team. One of the differences between the (Miami) Heat and our team during the playoff series last year was that I thought they were a better screening team."

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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    What I like about Frank, is that he's very good at spotting his own flaws and the team's flaws as a whole. He's willing to learn, and he doesn't have the ego to prevent him from asking someone for help.

    SO important for a young coach, who is already pretty good at the whole Xs and Os thing, as well as the motivating thing.

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  20. #40
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    Default Re: Vogel learning from his mistakes

    Quote Originally Posted by LoneGranger33 View Post
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    I know this is something I complained about last season, so I'm glad they're taking a look at it in training camp. These are the things that make me more comfortable with Vogel at the helm.

    http://www.indystar.com/article/20121004/SPORTS04/210050319/Pacers-take-smash-mouth-basketball-another-level?nclick_check=1

    by Mike Wells

    The Indiana Pacers have taken smash-mouth basketball to another level, with assistant video coordinator
    Jhared Simpson wearing football shoulder pads in practice during a screening drill. Assistant coach Jim Boylen pitched the idea to coach Frank Vogel. Boylen got the drill from Michigan State coach Tom Izzo, whose teams have a blue collar reputation. Boylen also used it when he coached at the University of Utah.

    "It's a reference point type drill," Boylen said. "You want to make the pad click. It gave our guys the freedom to smack somebody without anybody getting hurt. It also gave them a good feel for what a solid screen feels like."

    The objective of the drill was to try to help the Pacers set better screens. They have struggled in that area over the years.
    "That was the idea," Vogel said. "Maybe we'll become a better screening team. One of the differences between the (Miami) Heat and our team during the playoff series last year was that I thought they were a better screening team."
    Good stuff. If our guys could set a decent screen on a consistent basis I think it'll make significant difference.

    Also of note in that article - Mels Daniels attending practices as a guest of Walsh.
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