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Thread: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

  1. #26

    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Everyone in the league had the same "issue". I'm not blaming Vogel for us losing, but I hope he comes up with a more cohesive, and less predictable offensive strategy this year. I think the fact that we retained Shaw will help big time.
    No they didn't. How many other teams had a new coach last year and two new starters(by the end of the year)?

    The Pacers had much more to work on, compared to say teams like the Heat and Thunder. Whose coaching staff had already had time to work with their players the previous year. And whose lineups were relatively static.

    Where as Vogel had no training camp to introduce his system. He had to introduce during an already truncated season. While trying to phase in 2 new key contributors.

    I don't see why this is hard for you to understand.

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    No they didn't. How many other teams had a new coach last year and two new starters(by the end of the year)?

    The Pacers had much more to work on, compared to say teams like the Heat and Thunder. Whose coaching staff had already had time to work with their players the previous year. And whose lineups were relatively static.

    Where as Vogel had no training camp to introduce his system. He had to introduce during an already truncated season. While trying to phase in 2 new key contributors.

    I don't see why this is hard for you to understand.
    I would have thanked your post, but didn't due to the bolded part. Uncalled for even if I agree with you.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

  3. #28

    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    I would have thanked your post, but didn't due to the bolded part. Uncalled for even if I agree with you.
    I only put that part because this is the third time in three different topics where he has tried to pretend that Vogel had the same exact situation as other teams. I wouldn't have put that if it was the first time I was making the argument. But the third time, I am going to ask why he is just ignoring the points and continue to try to hold Vogel to an unfair standard.

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    I only put that part because this is the third time in three different topics where he has tried to pretend that Vogel had the same exact situation as other teams. I wouldn't have put that if it was the first time I was making the argument. But the third time, I am going to ask why he is just ignoring the points and continue to try to hold Vogel to an unfair standard.
    Understood. It is still more aggressive than you need. Your points carry weight with other people than just him/her. You can't control what others pay attention to, but they are more likely to notice the negative. Can't make or take it personal.

    Vogel needs more than one training camp I agree. I actually think we will underperform most people's expecetations this year, not because we aren't good, but the expectations might be a bit too high. I think Vogel needs to grow with this team and I think his coaching will be most important across our non-front court players this season. If we underperform, we shouldn't get rid of Vogel.
    "Your course, your path, is not going to be like mine," West says. "Everybody is not called to be a multimillionaire. Everybody's not called to be the president. Whatever your best work is, you do it. Do it well. … You cease your own greatness when you aspire to be someone else."

  5. #30

    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    Understood. It is still more aggressive than you need. Your points carry weight with other people than just him/her. You can't control what others pay attention to, but they are more likely to notice the negative. Can't make or take it personal.

    Vogel needs more than one training camp I agree. I actually think we will underperform most people's expecetations this year, not because we aren't good, but the expectations might be a bit too high. I think Vogel needs to grow with this team and I think his coaching will be most important across our non-front court players this season. If we underperform, we shouldn't get rid of Vogel.
    Fair enough.

    I am not sure what to expect, Vogel has never had a training camp. Do I expect our offense to be better rounded, sure. But I think the most improvement we will see will be on the defensive side of the ball. Our team defense as a whole needed work in the Miami series, Cuban even pointed that out. He said teams like us, weren't able to do what his Mavs had done against the Heat, because they had spent an entire preseason game just working on those things they went on to use.

    I think most of any offensive improvements we see this year, will just be from players growth, and actually having a distributor(DJ) on the roster.

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by pacergod2 View Post
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    I would have thanked your post, but didn't due to the bolded part. Uncalled for even if I agree with you.
    I don't see what was so horrible about what he said? He didn't call him stupid, or an idiot or anything. He was just saying he didn't understand why the other guy didn't understand. Nothing harsh, uncalled for, or aggressive.

  8. #32
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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    I only put that part because this is the third time in three different topics where he has tried to pretend that Vogel had the same exact situation as other teams. I wouldn't have put that if it was the first time I was making the argument. But the third time, I am going to ask why he is just ignoring the points and continue to try to hold Vogel to an unfair standard.
    I'm not sure what other two times you're talking about lol, but EVERYBODY had to deal with the lockout. That's just a fact. No Vogel prob didn't have enough time to fully implement what he wanted offensively or defensively, but neither did any other coach.

    I'm not trying to hold him to an omposs standard as I think he's a good coach, I just think some over state the fact that it was a lockout shortened season and we added a few new players. No it's not the SAME EXACT situation as other coaches and other teams, but different coaches have different issues to deal with.

    Van Gundy (whom I hate) had to deal with Dwight drama, Thibidoeau had to deal with injuries, etc. Vogel had to deal with trying to add new pieces on the fly, but that's his job as the head coach. He did a very good job, but I'm just not buying the lockout as an excuse for anything because everyone went through it.

    And again, I think Vogel is good. Has as much to do with the change in our culture as anybody. It'll be interesting what he can do with a full training camp.
    Last edited by Ace E.Anderson; 09-29-2012 at 12:53 AM.

  9. #33

    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I'm not sure what other two times you're talking about lol, but EVERYBODY had to deal with the lockout. That's just a fact. No Vogel prob didn't have enough time to fully implement what he wanted offensively or defensively, but neither did any other coach.

    I'm not trying to hold him to an omposs standard as I think he's a good coach, I just think some over state the fact that it was a lockout shortened season and we added a few new players. No it's not the SAME EXACT situation as other coaches and other teams, but different coaches have different issues to deal with.

    Van Gundy (whom I hate) had to deal with Dwight drama, Thibidoeau had to deal with injuries, etc. Vogel had to deal with trying to add new pieces on the fly, but that's his job as the head coach. He did a very good job, but I'm just not buying the lockout as an excuse for anything because everyone went through it.

    Lol whys that part hard for you to understand
    No offense here. But if you honestly think that a first year head coach isnt significantly worse off losing training camp than a second year coach, then you need to get your head examined. Other coaches didnt need training camp to get their systems in place because they had them in place from the year before. Thats just common sense. The Bulls, Heat, Celtics, Thunder and Spurs could just go with last years system. Vogel couldnt do that. He was in a drastically worse position with 2 new starters. Thats also something that none of those teams had to deal with IIRC
    Last edited by Mad-Mad-Mario; 09-29-2012 at 01:01 AM. Reason: iPhone is crappy for PD

  10. #34

    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    I would just let the starters figure out a way to score and with the size advantage most of them have, I think they will do fine during large parts of the game.
    If they struggle, Augustin can be of great help for our offense as the sixth man.
    It will be like a reward: hey man, u focused first on defense and then tried so hard to create offense on your own, I'll make it more easy for you, catch it and score...

    To finish games, DJ is probably our best option to create offense, but who could Frank substitute him in for?
    Hill is too good in the clutch and a very good defender. Paul is our best defender and can be a good scorer. Danny can shoot. West is clutch but not a great rebounder or rim protector. Hibbert is a good rebounder and great rim protector, but a bit slow to keep up in crunch time.

    Mahinmi perhaps. He isn't as good overall as our starters, but he can rebound, protect the rim and is useful on the perimeter to set screens and defend them.
    And scoring in the post is much more difficult late in games.

  11. #35
    Biggest Pacer Fan PacersForever's Avatar
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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    The best combination we could possibly get is,

    PG: DJ
    SG George

    Backup SG: Hill
    Backup PG: Stevenson

    DJ is a great facilitator we utilize him to the best of his ability at starting PG. Makes sense to start George over Hill to.

    Stevenson will be givin a chance a backup PG. If Augustin doesn't start then we have 3 PG's.

    Hill can spark the bench at backup SG.

    Unless we resign Barbosa then that's are best rotation.
    Last edited by PacersForever; 10-02-2012 at 06:09 AM.

  12. #36
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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    No offense here. But if you honestly think that a first year head coach isnt significantly worse off losing training camp than a second year coach, then you need to get your head examined. Other coaches didnt need training camp to get their systems in place because they had them in place from the year before. Thats just common sense. The Bulls, Heat, Celtics, Thunder and Spurs could just go with last years system. Vogel couldnt do that. He was in a drastically worse position with 2 new starters. Thats also something that none of those teams had to deal with IIRC
    Well you're half right, a first year coach maybe, but Vogel had coached our team for half a season and a playoff series the season prior, not to mention he was an assistant to JOB as well, so it's not like he had ZERO familiarity with most of the players on our roster and vice versa. Yes we had to implement West and Hill on the fly, but again any team that added players to their team had the same issue.

    Was he in an ideal situation? No. But calling it drastically worse than any other coaching situation is kind of drastic. As I said before, Vogel is a good coach and it'll be interesting if we'll see drastic changes within our play book after a full training camp.

    There's no point in debating because you've already made this bigger than it is, and have misconstrued my words. We just disagree and that's now twice you've tried to say something offensive. You've made your point, I've made mine. Move on...

    Now excuse me as I get my head examined

  13. #37
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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    The best combination we could possibly get is,

    PG: DJ
    SG George

    Backup SG: Hill
    Backup PG: Stevenson

    DJ is a great facilitator we utilize to the best of his ability at starting PG. Makes sense to start George over Hill to.

    Stevenson will be givin a chance a backup PG. If Augustin doesn't start then we have 3 PG's.

    Hill can spark the bench at backup SG.

    Unless we resign Barbosa then that's are best rotation.
    That's a fine scenario throughout the game. But the real question comes down the stretch. Who plays then? I can't see Hill sitting.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  14. #38
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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Well you're half right, a first year coach maybe, but Vogel had coached our team for half a season and a playoff series the season prior, not to mention he was an assistant to JOB as well, so it's not like he had ZERO familiarity with most of the players on our roster and vice versa. Yes we had to implement West and Hill on the fly, but again any team that added players to their team had the same issue.
    I disagree. The half season Vogel coached was spent simplifying the offense greatly over what JOB had in place, which gives very little basis for an offensive system that would be available to run without a training camp. In fact, I would propose that the simplified offense that carried over is exactly why we were easy to defend in far too many cases.

    While I assign a little more weight to the system this year than Mario does in terms of determining Vogel's future, in my case I want to see a system that has more depth to it even if it takes a while for the players to get into it. It will be extremely important to separate execution of a well-planned system (which would be on the players to a certain extent) from lack of a system (which would be on Vogel).
    BillS

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I disagree. The half season Vogel coached was spent simplifying the offense greatly over what JOB had in place, which gives very little basis for an offensive system that would be available to run without a training camp. In fact, I would propose that the simplified offense that carried over is exactly why we were easy to defend in far too many cases.

    While I assign a little more weight to the system this year than Mario does in terms of determining Vogel's future, in my case I want to see a system that has more depth to it even if it takes a while for the players to get into it. It will be extremely important to separate execution of a well-planned system (which would be on the players to a certain extent) from lack of a system (which would be on Vogel).
    If you read the story from the Indy Star this morning, Vogel touched on the ability to implement more schemes both offensively and defensively this season. I essentially agree--we were very predictable offensively last year. It will certainly be interesting to see how much more complex and we will be able to be offensively this season.

    I guess the point I was trying to make is that I believe that this is the year we find out what Vogel is. We shouldn't pretend this is his first year, and completely discount what he's done in his first two years here, both positive and negative. If we are somehow still very predictable offensively, a lot of that falls on the head coach's shoulders. The fact that last season was a lockout shortened season shouldn't change that fact..in my eyes.

    Now I'm not saying if we don't win 50 games, we should can the guy. In fact if we got off to a bit of a slow start because we are attempting to make sure we run every set to a T, then I wouldn't complain at all. All I'm looking for is improvement and a system that we can hang our hat on--especially offensively; because with this group of players we will have to rely on execution and strategy to take out other teams with superior talent.

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    I think people forget that Vogel is essentially a "second-year" player. He's still very young and inexperienced as a head coach, so you have to allow for growth on his part, also.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I think people forget that Vogel is essentially a "second-year" player. He's still very young and inexperienced as a head coach, so you have to allow for growth on his part, also.
    How many second year players get tossed under the bus if they don't make improvement that year?

    I am in favor of Vogel having his option picked up ASAP, which means no matter what happens this year he will have next year as well. However, that doesn't mean I don't think he should show something this year before he gets a contract extension.
    BillS

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  21. #42
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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    They only get tossed under the bus by fans, and generally illogically, so that point isn't very valid. Fans are idiots.

    Who would give up on Paul George now, he has two years under his belt. Exact same amount of time for Vogel. Of course we expect improvement from them. But if Paul George only improves 10% this year, are you going to throw him away?

    I already think Vogel is very very good, especialy considering how little experience and age that guy carries with him. I also think he's going to get better every year. We've done what we have these past 2 seasons despite absorbing some of Vogel's learning curve --- imagine how good we'll be once the guy starts to really figure it out. Man, that sounds familiar...
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 10-01-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    There are three aspects that make up a great general, their motivational skills, their strategic skills, and their ability to spot talent. I would say motivation is the most important, followed closely by spotting talent, and then strategic. Vogel has proven he is a great motivator, and most people believe he has the best assistant coach in the league. He just needs to prove he can be a strategist also, or at the very least is willing to use the talent he has collected around him to make up for his short comings.

    I would say he is 70% of his way to being a great coach. If he can show he can be a strategist also we may have a franchise coach on our hands. If not, he will never be anything more than an average coach.

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    There are three aspects that make up a great general, their motivational skills, their strategic skills, and their ability to spot talent. I would say motivation is the most important, followed closely by spotting talent, and then strategic. Vogel has proven he is a great motivator, and most people believe he has the best assistant coach in the league. He just needs to prove he can be a strategist also, or at the very least is willing to use the talent he has collected around him to make up for his short comings.

    I would say he is 70% of his way to being a great coach. If he can show he can be a strategist also we may have a franchise coach on our hands. If not, he will never be anything more than an average coach.
    Absolutely right, and strategy is usually earned with experience. We're talking a guy who has been a head coach for barely 2 years. Period. He wasn't a head coach on any level and found himself HC of an NBA team at the age of 37. Of course his strategy is likely going to be his worst skill. He seems smart enough and has the guys around him to nurture that skill, I have full faith that he will.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  25. #45
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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    One of the best strategic decisions he ever made was to immediately ditch all of JOB's weird strategies.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Lance will see little PT. He will get his chance early on like he did last year. Sadly, he simply doesn't have what it takes intellectually (basketball intellect) to play in the NBA. He's a lost cause.

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    Quote Originally Posted by WhoLovesYaBaby? View Post
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    Lance will see little PT. He will get his chance early on like he did last year. Sadly, he simply doesn't have what it takes intellectually (basketball intellect) to play in the NBA. He's a lost cause.
    Ive seen nothing that indicates that Lance doesnt have the basketball IQ to succeed. He actually seems to have a good grip on the game.

    Its his regular IQ and work ethic that worry me most.
    Stop quoting people I have on ignore!

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by Psyren View Post
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    Its his regular IQ and work ethic that worry me most.
    I tend to think he has a good IQ, a good bball IQ, and could even have a decent work ethic.

    None of those have to do with emotional maturity. His crucible will be making good decisions during difficult times. That primarily involves neither talent nor IQ.
    Last edited by McKeyFan; 10-02-2012 at 10:50 AM.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Our two starting guards and offensive firepower

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersForever View Post
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    The best combination we could possibly get is,

    PG: DJ
    SG George
    I continue to believe that Hill's future is ultimately as the starting 2. I think this is where he prefers to play and has suggested as such publicly, multiple times. I would not be surprised at all to see Granger go this season, paving a way for a substantive signing for DJ or a true point guard next offseason.

    That would leave us with DJ (or his archetype) at the 1, GH at the 2, PG at the 3, and Hibbert at the 5. That leaves our biggest future hole at the 4. I think we're really vulnerable there come this time next year.

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