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Thread: Ref'ing thread

  1. #126
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Seriously, why are you guys still defending Tate's "catch"? Jennings, goes up and grabs the ball with both hands, in possession. At nearly the same time, but after the fact, Tate reaches across Jennings body and *touches* the ball, but does not have possession of the ball. His other hand, starts to go to the ball, but then falls away as both players fall to the ground. Throughout the entire play, Tate's right hand never touches the ball until both playres land on the ground and then his right hand goes for the ball. By that point in time Jennings had 1) grabbed the ball with both hands 2) clutched the ball to his chest 3) caught Tate's hand underneath the ball in his chest. Tate was on the other side of Jennings.

    Even after Jennings made the catch, the resulting scrum on the ground resulted in:

    Ball | Jennings | Tate

    Tate was separated from the ball by a fricking person. Unfortunately for Tate, when he "caught" that ball lying on the ground, there was already a defender attached to the damn thing.

    At no point in time did Tate ever establish possession of the ball. He established a touching of the ball with one hand around a defender who had already maintained possession of the ball.

    Even so, the two refs came in calling opposite calls. They did not confer with each other, they just auto-picked touchdown. What in the world were they thinking? Consult! You have the game on the line with this one call, and you just wing it??? It was a miscall on the field, after a non-call on a penalty on Tate. Since the grey area of the rules made it hard to overturn the incorrect call on the field, not to mention that ref had 60,000 rabid 'Hawks fans foaming at the mouth --- he says the touchdown stands. Of course he did, he would've been lynched on the spot by that crowd. You could see the look on his face, it was a very uneasy look... he knew it was an interception but looked pressured to uphold the call due to the scene, the wharbling mass of insane fans goin' nuts in the stands.

    Rules schmules --- the correct call on this play should have been pass interference on Tate and end of game. The next correct call, if we go with the non-call on Tate, is that Jennings intercepted the ball. End of story. The next correct call, if we go with the incorrect call of touchdown, was that the play should have been reversed. Three incorrect calls wham-bam-bam in a row.

    And then they lost control of the situation by allowing Green Bay to exit the field, and not knowing what to do about the extra point. It was helter-skelter, a complete cluster****. That's why there is such an uproar. The incorrect call is just a small part of the entire scene. There were about 5-6 **** ups by the refs in about 10 minutes, starting with the missed pass interference on Tate in the endzone, and ending with the ridiculous scene of GB exiting the tunnel to come out and defend that ridiculous extra point. The on-field interview of Pete Carroll was a joke, he was trying to get his team back on the field while doing the interview, and when asked about the extra point, he was like "I have no idea what's goin on" in reference to the officials. That was the icing on the cake. When even the coach has no idea, and knows he's getting a free win.

    It was when the entire nation said "these refs have to go".
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-26-2012 at 01:49 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  2. #127
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Seriously, why are you guys still defending Tate's catch. Jennings, goes up and grabs the ball with both hands, in possession. At nearly the same time, but after the fact, Tate reaches across Jennings body and *touches* the ball, but does not have possession of the ball. His other hand, starts to go to the ball, but then falls away as both players fall to the ground. Throughout the entire play, Tate's right hand never touches the ball until both playres land on the ground and then his right hand goes for the ball. By that point in time Jennings had 1) grabbed the ball with both hands 2) clutched the ball to his chest 3) caught Tate's hand underneath the ball in his chest. Tate was on the other side of Jennings.

    Even after Jennings made the catch, the resulting scrum on the ground resulted in:

    Ball | Jennings | Tate

    At no point in time did Tate ever establish possession of the ball. He established a touching of the ball with one hand around a defender who had already maintained possession of the ball.

    Even so, the two refs came in calling opposite calls. They did not confer with each other, they just auto-picked touchdown. What in the world were they thinking? Consult! You have the game on the line with this one call, and you just wing it??? It was a miscall on the field, after a non-call on a penalty on Tate. Since the grey area of the rules made it hard to overturn the incorret call on the field, not to mention that ref had 60,000 rabid 'Hawks fans foaming at the mouth --- he says the touchdown stands Of course he did, he would've been lynched on the spot.

    Rules schmules --- the correct call on this play should have been pass interference on Tate and end of game. The next correct call, if we go with the non-call on Tate, is that Jennings intercepted the ball. End of story. The next correct call, if we go with the incorrect call of touchdown, was that the play should have been reversed. Three incorrect calls wham-bam-bam in a row.

    And then they lost control of the situation by allowing Green Bay to exit the field, and not knowing what to do about the extra point. It was helter-skelter, a complete cluster****. That's why there is such an uproar. The incorrect call is just a small part of the entire scene. There were about 5-6 **** ups by the refs in about 10 minutes, starting with the missed pass interference on Tate in the endzone, and ending with the ridiculous scene of GB exiting the tunnel to come out and defend that ridiculous extra point.

    It was when the entire nation said "these refs have to go".


    it was clearly an INT. no question about it
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  3. #128
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Okay, here, I went and made some images from this HD video of the play http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZpV5xIJax4s:

    Jennings has established the catch with both hands, above Tate's head. Tate is barely touching the ball with his left hand, and his right hand isn't touching the ball at all:
    https://resources.oncourse.iu.edu/ac...tch/catch1.png

    Again, Jennings has ball firmly in possession, and Tate's right hand is grasping JENNINGS ARM, not the ball:
    https://resources.oncourse.iu.edu/ac...tch/catch2.png

    Again, Jennings has ball with two hands and clutched against his chest, while Tate is behind Jennings, his left arm is caught between Jennings chest and the ball, and his right arm is swinging freely out in space nowhere even close the ball:
    https://resources.oncourse.iu.edu/ac...tch/catch3.png

    Jennings has ball in both arms, clutched against chest; Tate is underneath Jennings, arms wrapped around Jennings trying to fake "possession" of the ball:
    https://resources.oncourse.iu.edu/ac...tch/catch4.png

    The refs evidently deemed that enough for them to call it a catch by Tate. Absolutely absurd.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  5. #129
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread


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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    $21,000 fine for a hit that could have paralyzed someone. $50,000 fine for touching a scab referee on the arm. The hypocrisy of the NFL? Priceless.

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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    THEY'RE BACK
    Smothered Chicken!

  10. #132
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    I knew my boycott would work

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  12. #133
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    You did it Dab! You brought the refs back!
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  13. #134
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    $21,000 fine for a hit that could have paralyzed someone. $50,000 fine for touching a scab referee on the arm. The hypocrisy of the NFL? Priceless.
    While I agree with all hypocrisy statements for Goodell, I understand all the "unsafe" hit fines this season have been for a first offense have been $21,000 - a 5% increase over last year.

    I'm still waiting for Goodell to start fining the offensive players that lower their heads at the last second... that's obviously not what happened in the Steelers-Raiders game Sunday but it has happened many times in the past two seasons. That's the other part of the hypocricy, not all of these helmet hits are the fault or responsibility of the defensive player but its only a fine to the defensive player. This isn't about "player safety", its about keeping the money makers on the field, and Goodell has quickly turned into a more-Satanic version of David Stern: marketing whore masqureding as a commissioner.
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  14. #135
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    While I agree with all hypocrisy statements for Goodell, I understand all the "unsafe" hit fines this season have been for a first offense have been $21,000 - a 5% increase over last year.

    I'm still waiting for Goodell to start fining the offensive players that lower their heads at the last second... that's obviously not what happened in the Steelers-Raiders game Sunday but it has happened many times in the past two seasons. That's the other part of the hypocricy, not all of these helmet hits are the fault or responsibility of the defensive player but its only a fine to the defensive player. This isn't about "player safety", its about keeping the money makers on the field, and Goodell has quickly turned into a more-Satanic version of David Stern: marketing whore masqureding as a commissioner.
    J, my problem is not necessarily that I view $21,000 as "not enough" my issue is that you would fine a coach more than the player. That is all. And I agree offensive players don't catch enough blame when they make dangeours hits.

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  15. #136

    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    I keep hearing from people saying that we will be upset when the real refs blow calls too.

    Yes, that's true. But blowing 2-3 calls per game vs. blowing 15-20 calls per game is a huge difference.

    Also, blowing calls was to me anyway not even the main problem with the replacement refs that was making games unwatchable. The replacement officials simply could not administer the game, meaning:
    1) they often did not know the rules
    2) they often did not communicate the calls to coaches, players, fans, or anybody
    3) they often did not even spot the ball correctly-- uummm knowing down and distance is not a "nice to have" option!
    4) they did not keep random skirmishes from breaking out all over the field 10X a game due to missed cheap shots
    5) they could not keep the game moving, with all of the random extended moments of indecision

    To me, the season starts now.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  17. #137
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    I keep hearing from people saying that we will be upset when the real refs blow calls too.

    Yes, that's true. But blowing 2-3 calls per game vs. blowing 15-20 calls per game is a huge difference.

    Also, blowing calls was to me anyway not even the main problem with the replacement refs that was making games unwatchable. The replacement officials simply could not administer the game, meaning:
    1) they often did not know the rules
    2) they often did not communicate the calls to coaches, players, fans, or anybody
    3) they often did not even spot the ball correctly-- uummm knowing down and distance is not a "nice to have" option!
    4) they did not keep random skirmishes from breaking out all over the field 10X a game due to missed cheap shots
    5) they could not keep the game moving, with all of the random extended moments of indecision

    To me, the season starts now.
    This sums it up pretty nicely. I especially agree with #1 and #3 on your list. Those are the ones I thought were the biggest problems.

  18. #138
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    I keep hearing from people saying that we will be upset when the real refs blow calls too.

    Yes, that's true. But blowing 2-3 calls per game vs. blowing 15-20 calls per game is a huge difference.

    Also, blowing calls was to me anyway not even the main problem with the replacement refs that was making games unwatchable. The replacement officials simply could not administer the game, meaning:
    1) they often did not know the rules
    2) they often did not communicate the calls to coaches, players, fans, or anybody
    3) they often did not even spot the ball correctly-- uummm knowing down and distance is not a "nice to have" option!
    4) they did not keep random skirmishes from breaking out all over the field 10X a game due to missed cheap shots
    5) they could not keep the game moving, with all of the random extended moments of indecision

    To me, the season starts now.
    Yeah, it wasn't just the blown calls that were irritating. The pace of the game was just ridiculously slow with these inept scabs. Wasn't Belichick complaining about this the other night during the game? The delay benefited the Ravens in whatever the situation was, IIRC. That Falcons-Broncos MNF game was just brutally slow.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-27-2012 at 06:05 PM.

  19. #139

    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Wasn't Belichick complaining about this the other night during the game? The delay benefited the Ravens in whatever the situation was, IIRC.
    The ball was spotted more than a full yard short of the first down and it was going to be 4th and over a yard. Now, mind you, the spot was BAD. But where they had spotted it was far, far away from the 1st down marker. Yet they stopped play for a LONG measurement to show that they were way, way short, as everyone knew. In the meantime, the Ravens had seen replays from every angle and wisely decided to challenge the spot, and won.

    No big deal, really, since they corrected the awful spot, but it made the Ravens decision to challenge easy, and those challenges are a precious asset. Also not a big deal because is wasn't even one of the top 10 low points of the game in terms of officiating.

    A non-New England sportswriter broke down the Ravens-Pats game, analyzing the 24 penalties called (but not any obvious penalties that were NOT called, including a headbutt, slaps to the face, and some obvious tackle-by-the-neck holds on the Ravens). Anyway, 14 penalties were called in the game on the Ravens, with 2 being clearly bogus, 3 being inconclusive on replay, and nine being clearly correct. 10 penalties were called against the Patriots, with 5 being clearly bogus, 1 being inconclusive on replay, and 4 being clearly correct.

    So... bad calls both ways, for sure. But... the kicker was that 4 of the 5 obviously bogus penalties on the Patriots either stalled a possible NE scoring drive or extended a Baltimore scoring drive that eventually produced a TD (2 of them coming on 3rd and long). Neither of the two bogus penalties on the Ravens D affected scoring (i.e., the Patriots didn't score anyway). bottom line: bogus calls in the judgment of the writer affected the score, and perhaps by double digits for the Ravens.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  21. #140
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    The ball was spotted more than a full yard short of the first down and it was going to be 4th and over a yard. Now, mind you, the spot was BAD. But where they had spotted it was far, far away from the 1st down marker. Yet they stopped play for a LONG measurement to show that they were way, way short, as everyone knew. In the meantime, the Ravens had seen replays from every angle and wisely decided to challenge the spot, and won.

    No big deal, really, since they corrected the awful spot, but it made the Ravens decision to challenge easy, and those challenges are a precious asset. Also not a big deal because is wasn't even one of the top 10 low points of the game in terms of officiating.

    A non-New England sportswriter broke down the Ravens-Pats game, analyzing the 24 penalties called (but not any obvious penalties that were NOT called, including a headbutt, slaps to the face, and some obvious tackle-by-the-neck holds on the Ravens). Anyway, 14 penalties were called in the game on the Ravens, with 2 being clearly bogus, 3 being inconclusive on replay, and nine being clearly correct. 10 penalties were called against the Patriots, with 5 being clearly bogus, 1 being inconclusive on replay, and 4 being clearly correct.

    So... bad calls both ways, for sure. But... the kicker was that 4 of the 5 obviously bogus penalties on the Patriots either stalled a possible NE scoring drive or extended a Baltimore scoring drive that eventually produced a TD (2 of them coming on 3rd and long). Neither of the two bogus penalties on the Ravens D affected scoring (i.e., the Patriots didn't score anyway). bottom line: bogus calls in the judgment of the writer affected the score, and perhaps by double digits for the Ravens.

    Coincidence that it always seemed to be the road team getting screwed? I think not.

    In fact, did any of the more egregious examples in recent weeks concern the home team getting screwed?

    No doubt that New England got the short end of the straw the other night.

  22. #141
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Coincidence that it always seemed to be the road team getting screwed? I think not.

    In fact, did any of the more egregious examples in recent weeks concern the home team getting screwed?

    No doubt that New England got the short end of the straw the other night.
    Not many. The pass intereference call on Ike Taylor vs. Santonio Holmes was laughably bad, against the home team, and had no ability whatsoever to jumpstart the Jets offense. But that was a textbook example of a call by these replacement refs that every single Jets fan was laughing at too, knowing they got the benefit of incompetence on that one. They seemed to favor the home team but made enough mistakes in the other way to balance it out somewhat.
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  24. #142
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    I hope NBA fans remember this next time the NBA and their refs have a dispute. The real refs are really pretty good and for sure they are the best available

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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I hope NBA fans remember this next time the NBA and their refs have a dispute. The real refs are really pretty good and for sure they are the best available
    NBA refs are way worse then NFL refs.

    That said, I think we would have a similar situation should the NBA refs get locked out.

    Control of the game, in any league IMO, is half the battle. Clearly the replacement refs failed.....and failed hard

  26. #144

    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    You would have a similar situation with an NBA ref lockout especially if the NBA couldn't sign D1 college refs, mid-major college refs, Euroleague refs, FIBA refs, etc. as replacements, and had to pick up guys reffing the high school AAU circuit.

    There will always be a big change when you drop off about 5 levels in skill and aptitude. It's like inviting someone from a YMCA league to try out for the Pacers and expecting them to succeed.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  28. #145
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    You would have a similar situation with an NBA ref lockout especially if the NBA couldn't sign D1 college refs, mid-major college refs, Euroleague refs, FIBA refs, etc. as replacements, and had to pick up guys reffing the high school AAU circuit.

    There will always be a big change when you drop off about 5 levels in skill and aptitude. It's like inviting someone from a YMCA league to try out for the Pacers and expecting them to succeed.
    Hey! My YMCA league is pretty good.

  29. #146
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Interview with ref who blew the GB-Sea game:
    http://espn.go.com/nfl/story/_/id/84...-wayne-elliott

    $ quote:
    Quote Originally Posted by espn
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    The league issued a statement after the game saying that Tate should have been called for offensive pass interference.

    Elliott said that during training he remembered being told that "you don't really call interference on a Hail Mary. ... You just let it go."

  30. #147
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Eh... not sure about that. I think in the instance where a horde of players all go up at once and collide mid-air, then ya, I can see them not calling interference. But if a guy shoves a guy to the ground while the ball is still on the way and before everyone jumps up, that to me is a blatant and penalizable act of misconduct.

    If what they say is true, then basically every Hail Mary is an absolute, barnyard, every-man-for-himself free for all in which all rules are ignored. I don't buy that.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  31. #148

    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Pass Intereference gets called on Hail Marys. Not often, but I have seen it. One was a Drew Bledsoe Hail Mary in 1999 I think.

    Also from that ESPN interview the ref now agrees he should have called it an interception, after insisting otherwise before.

    Asked if he would stick by his call after seeing the replay, Elliott said: "I'd probably call interception. I learned a rule by screwing up the rule."
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  32. #149
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I hope NBA fans remember this next time the NBA and their refs have a dispute. The real refs are really pretty good and for sure they are the best available
    I thought refs didn't impact the game?

  33. #150
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    Default Re: Ref'ing thread

    What's the rule on this:

    During the last two minutes of the half/ game, a complete pass for a first down and the receiver (let's just call him Antonio Brown, for the fun of it.) is tackled in bounds. Then let's say the defender, and let's just call him Kurt Coleman for the fun of it, pulls Brown's shoe off his foot after the tackle and then throws it to the sideline.

    Since this "hypothetical" tackle was in-bounds, the clock was runnings, so let's also say the QB, and let's just call him Big Dumb Ben, hypothetically of course, feels the need to spike the ball and waste the first down while Brown searches for the missing shoe.

    It might look like this:



    Is there a penalty to be called here? Should there be? Or should this become the next big defensive gimmick against a hurry-up/ two minute drill?

    I can laugh since my team still kicked the GW FG a few plays later.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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