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Thread: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

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    Default Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    All day, everyday.

    Sounds random but seems like they are categorized based on 3 point shooting and Ray Allen winning a championship. Reggie Miller was more than a 3 point shooter and despite some of his quality teams, he never had KG, Pierce and Rondo to carry him. He carried the Pacers while competing in the Jordan/Ewing era. Allen was the 4th best player on his championship team. Prior to that, Allen was playing with Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell. Check out their numbers... both combined to average 40 points a game.

    This thread might seem random but I'm sick of the fans who think Ray Allen is better because he broke Reggie's record and won a championship. Even seeing one hit wonders like Wade being ranked ahead of Reggie for mooching off Shaq and Lebron. Reggie had some good teams and good teammates, but come on. He was also the best on the floor for our Pacers. Allen and Wade were never the best on the floor for their team. Wade is a given, Shaq and Lebron were clearly better. And while it's obvious the Celtics had three other players better than Allen, anyone who watched the Bucks would remember Robinson being better than Allen as well.

    This is a useless thread but say what you will, Reggie Miller was special. I will never understand the comparison between him and Ray Allen. One was leader and carried his team. The other, was in a group of players that would have been stars in their own right without Allen.

    Watching old Miller footage can make one feel drunk. Especially in the offseason.

    Miller Time!!!!!

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Let's just say there is a reason why there is a minimum 5 year period after retiring before you can be inducted into the Hall of Fame. People tend to rate players higher when they are still playing.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    I would take Miller over Ray Allen too..but Ray Allen is the king of 3 pointers. Sucks to say that though.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Ray was better than Reggie with the ball in his hands, particularly in their primes. With the Celtics Ray rarely handled the ball, but earlier in his career he was a guy you could give the ball and have him create his own shot pretty consistently. Reggie was never great in that regard, he could create from time to time, but for the most part he was a guy who had to be set up. Ray was a bit better of a rebounder, and a marginally better passer, and defensively neither was really going to blow your socks off. I get the whole Reggie being clutch thing, but if there's one guy it's not worth making that argument against, it's Ray.

    On the whole, they're more different as players than people like to acknowledge. If I need a guy who can create with the ball in his hands, I'm probably taking Ray. If I already have that, I go Reggie in a heartbeat. It's not especially cut and dry either way though, entirely depends on the team they're on and what that team needs. Reggie was more efficient, Ray was better at putting up volume.

    A Gerald Green fan who now finds himself rooting for the Suns.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Quote Originally Posted by repole View Post
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    Ray was better than Reggie with the ball in his hands, particularly in their primes. With the Celtics Ray rarely handled the ball, but earlier in his career he was a guy you could give the ball and have him create his own shot pretty consistently. Reggie was never great in that regard, he could create from time to time, but for the most part he was a guy who had to be set up. Ray was a bit better of a rebounder, and a marginally better passer, and defensively neither was really going to blow your socks off. I get the whole Reggie being clutch thing, but if there's one guy it's not worth making that argument against, it's Ray.

    On the whole, they're more different as players than people like to acknowledge. If I need a guy who can create with the ball in his hands, I'm probably taking Ray. If I already have that, I go Reggie in a heartbeat. It's not especially cut and dry either way though, entirely depends on the team they're on and what that team needs. Reggie was more efficient, Ray was better at putting up volume.
    Reggie was a lot better at getting his own shot than he is given credit for. No he wasn't GREAT at this, but nobody makes the HOF, and scores as many points as Reggie did as being only a 3-pt shooter who NEEDS someone to set him up to score. In fact, Reggie averaged more FTA a game than Ray has within his career.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOP View Post
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    All day, everyday.

    Sounds random but seems like they are categorized based on 3 point shooting and Ray Allen winning a championship. Reggie Miller was more than a 3 point shooter and despite some of his quality teams, he never had KG, Pierce and Rondo to carry him. He carried the Pacers while competing in the Jordan/Ewing era. Allen was the 4th best player on his championship team. Prior to that, Allen was playing with Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell. Check out their numbers... both combined to average 40 points a game.

    This thread might seem random but I'm sick of the fans who think Ray Allen is better because he broke Reggie's record and won a championship. Even seeing one hit wonders like Wade being ranked ahead of Reggie for mooching off Shaq and Lebron. Reggie had some good teams and good teammates, but come on. He was also the best on the floor for our Pacers. Allen and Wade were never the best on the floor for their team. Wade is a given, Shaq and Lebron were clearly better. And while it's obvious the Celtics had three other players better than Allen, anyone who watched the Bucks would remember Robinson being better than Allen as well.

    This is a useless thread but say what you will, Reggie Miller was special. I will never understand the comparison between him and Ray Allen. One was leader and carried his team. The other, was in a group of players that would have been stars in their own right without Allen.

    Watching old Miller footage can make one feel drunk. Especially in the offseason.

    Miller Time!!!!!
    Ray Allen was definitely the 3rd best player when they actually WON the championship. Rondo wasn't Rondo at that point yet.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Ray Allen was definitely the 3rd best player when they actually WON the championship. Rondo wasn't Rondo at that point yet.
    And if Reggie had joined that team at the AS break, he would have been the fifth or lower...
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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Once again everything Reggie did was skewed (rightfully so) by his memorable and game winning post season performances.

    I think if you compared Reggie regular season only vs Ray's regular season only, Ray probably is a little better, maybe. (and when I say compare, I don't mean stats, I mean compare their impact on winning)

    But Reggie was remarkable in the playoffs and even though Ray was also very good in the playoffs, Reggie's playoff performances put him well above Ray.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    In NBA history, I don't think there were 10 players who meant more to a franchise and fanbase than Reggie Miller meant to the Indiana Pacers. That has to matter at least some when discussing a player's legacy.

    This thread is proof of that.

  13. #10

    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    At the end of the day, they really were two pretty equal players. That's why they get compared. They weren't really rivals. They just happen to be two of the best (the two best) three point shooters in NBA history with similar strengths and weaknesses.

    Reggie's fans are likely to say Reggie was better and Ray's fans are likely to say Ray's better simply because they are a fan of the player.

    I think when all is said and done, people will look at both players, and when "ranking" Ray will likely get the edge, simply because of statistics. Ray's got a championship and Ray's got the 3 pointer record.

    That said, when you talk about "Legacy" I think Reggie will have the stronger one. Ray doesn't mean as much to any of the team's he's been on as Reggie meant to Indiana.

    but when it's all said and done, the two really are pretty equal.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Well, Allen wasn't just a 3 point shooter either, when he was younger. He was a great athlete and a solid playmaker.

    That said, I would still take Reggie as a player due to his overall demeanor / attitude / charisma / killer instinct or whatever you call it.

    Career wise, very comparable.
    Allen's championship / multiple contending years on a deep great team. + Conference finals on a Hawks-level team before that.
    versus Reggie's years and years of contending on a team that's somewhere in between.
    But I suspect that challenging Jordan's Bulls and the Knicks choke will stick in people's memories longer than anything Ray Ray did.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Quote Originally Posted by TOP View Post
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    All day, everyday.

    Sounds random but seems like they are categorized based on 3 point shooting and Ray Allen winning a championship. Reggie Miller was more than a 3 point shooter and despite some of his quality teams, he never had KG, Pierce and Rondo to carry him. He carried the Pacers while competing in the Jordan/Ewing era. Allen was the 4th best player on his championship team. Prior to that, Allen was playing with Glenn Robinson and Sam Cassell. Check out their numbers... both combined to average 40 points a game.

    This thread might seem random but I'm sick of the fans who think Ray Allen is better because he broke Reggie's record and won a championship. Even seeing one hit wonders like Wade being ranked ahead of Reggie for mooching off Shaq and Lebron. Reggie had some good teams and good teammates, but come on. He was also the best on the floor for our Pacers. Allen and Wade were never the best on the floor for their team. Wade is a given, Shaq and Lebron were clearly better. And while it's obvious the Celtics had three other players better than Allen, anyone who watched the Bucks would remember Robinson being better than Allen as well.

    This is a useless thread but say what you will, Reggie Miller was special. I will never understand the comparison between him and Ray Allen. One was leader and carried his team. The other, was in a group of players that would have been stars in their own right without Allen.

    Watching old Miller footage can make one feel drunk. Especially in the offseason.

    Miller Time!!!!!


    i'd pick Reggie over Ray Allen any day. Reggie is way more clutch and way better of a scorer
    Smothered Chicken!

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    Well as far as who's better is concerned, I think it can go either way. As a fan of basketball, both are pretty remarkable basketball players. In Miller's case, he proved his critics wrong on the very day he was drafted, rose to the elites of shooting guards and has an outstanding pro career despite a lack of championship in his portfolio. Ray was expected to be a great player as he was drafted 4th overall on one of the best draft rosters in NBA history, has fulfilled the expectations set to him, and had been a good part of the reason for the Celtic's last championship.

    But of course I'd still go with a Reggie Miller regardless because he made me a Pacer fan for life. He's just one of the few people that has truly inspired me because he has overcome very big obstacles in his life and just instilled more memorable moments than any other player, including Ray Allen.

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    Default Re: Reggie Miller over Ray Allen.

    I think you can sometimes forget the types of shots that Reggie made in all games, not just the highlight playoff games. You watch replays and see the type of moving shots and cutting for passes and it's pretty freaking elite. To me Ray's 3pt game was much more spot up than Reggie's, but Ray was better dribbling for 2pt space.

    They are somewhat even but I think Reggie made tougher shots for most of his career, and in an era of MUCH MORE PHYSICAL defense. Ray got to come into the NBA toward the end of all that.

    And the FTA is a great point, especially when compared to 3PAs if you want to talk about the scorer that could take it to the rim.

    FTA/3PA/FGA (p36)
    3.9/5.8/15.1
    5.3/4.9/13.2

    So you have a FT to 3P ratio of 0.67 for Ray and 1.08, quite a difference when talking about a guy getting to the line more than taking the long shot.

    FT per FGA overall is still Reggie's advantage at 0.26 to 0.40. This is where Reggie ranks much higher than Ray to me, he was a much more efficient scorer, a smarter scorer, and a guy that didn't typically rely on volume to load up on points. Plus as I said, those fouls were from guys like Oakley and Starks and Ewing, not hand slaps by a slow player that just got beat.

    And yet this efficiency and drawing fouls didn't come from taking more 2PAs, they both run 37-38% 3PA of their total FGA. Reggie was pickier about shots, craftier at drawing fouls, and made some tougher and IMO longer 3pt shots. There are a few in the 25pt quarter that are just Chuck Person stupid distance.

    And by the way, Mitch Richmond deserves to be in this discussion too. He got to the line a ton, shot a nice 3, but just not as much of his overall scoring as the other 2. All 3 are great, all have nice scoring stats, but Reggie had a clutch killer streak in him that's elite enough to even be better than other decent clutch guys.


    Tough call, great discussion.

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