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Thread: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Now that the Manning era is over, I've been pinching myself over how lucky we were to watch this dude every year. And yes, I took it for granted. I think most people probably did. Every year, you went into the season knowing that the Colts would get a bunch of prime time games and national focus. Every year, you knew that you would win the division and at least contend for the championship. Every year, you got to watch this guy carve up a bunch of inferior teams who looked like they didn't belong on the same field at times. Every year, you knew that the star of your team would be in a bunch of goofy commercials that were broadcast for the entire country.

    Sure there were some disappointments and I think most fans will always feel that we should have achieved a little bit more. But for that one moment, in early 2007, we were at the top of the sports world. That second half against the Patriots in the AFC championship game was without question the best moment of my entire life as a sports fan and I don't think anything could ever top it. We at least know what it is like to be a fan of an NFL team that won a Super Bowl, and there are a lot of fans who cannot say that.

    The horseshoe will always come first to me, but I am definitely going to be watching Peyton closely this year. I wish him all the best and will be rooting for him every game. I hope he plays until he's 40.

    I stopped taking it for granted back in '03 or '04, I think it was. The Bucs game where the Colts came back from 21 down with 5 minutes to go after Peyton's pick 6. I didn't get to see it happen because I was angry and turned off the tv to get some sleep. One of the few things in my life that I truly regret. I've never given up on a Manning since.


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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I won't say it was a bad decision, but I'm sad Manning never got the send off Reggie got.

    And yeah, watching him play again is great. It could be tough to stay logical about the Luck long term plan if the Broncos continue to look good, or heaven forbid win a super bowl.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Is it really surprising that a healthy veteran Peyton Manning on a good playoff team is going to do better / look better than a rookie Andrew Luck on a bad non-playoff team?

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    I would say that our running game has been pretty awful the last 5+ years and that there weren't really a lot of lanes available due to poor running back play and poor offensive line play. Peyton probably felt compelled to throw because that was the only way we could win. In Denver, he has a great offensive line with superior running back talent than we had here. I always felt that Peyton would have loved to have a proper running game, and when Edge was around, we played to better potential than we have since he left and Tarik retired.

    I can't wait to watch him play. My hope is that Peyton wins a couple SBs within the next few years, and then our Colts (+Luck) become good enough to win SBs after that. Would be the perfect scenario.
    And as I've said for seven years, you win SBXL if Manning is willing to hand the ball off to James. Manning shut him down that day, not the Steelers defense. The Steelers defense only had to worry about Manning and on that day, the only thing keeping the score close was a blown call on Polamalu's interception. Neither of those teams were going to lose to Denver or Seattle.

    I don't believe for a moment that either Rhodes or Addai were near as effective as James. You didn't have to account for them defensively, they made their mark when defenses became one-dimensional nickel or dime packages. They didn't accomplish much against "base" defenses and you didn't see much "base" defense after James left. But with James there, you couldn't afford to play the dime against the Colts, and playing nickel all game long was risky.

    And that's when the decline began, even though Manning still milked a lot of regular season wins out of a flawed concept and roster.

    The Steelers aren't there yet, but Art Rooney III keeps saying, "we need to be able to successful at running the ball when we need to." And that's exactly what Denver did Sunday night - run successfully when they needed to or when we gave it to them - and it hurt us more than Manning's arm hurt us.
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
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    I won't say it was a bad decision, but I'm sad Manning never got the send off Reggie got.

    And yeah, watching him play again is great. It could be tough to stay logical about the Luck long term plan if the Broncos continue to look good, or heaven forbid win a super bowl.
    The broncos were a playoff team last year (thought just 8-8) and won their initial playoff game. They added Tracy Porter to play the other side of Champ Bailey (very good CB combo) they have Von Miller and Dumerville to rush the passers, an above avg offensive line and running game. When you add 18 to the mix, then you have something pretty good.

    The colts are coming off a yr when they won 2 games, have changed into a completely new offensive and defensive philosophy, is being led by a rookie QB with a pretty bad offensive line, on and off running game, and a new defense--all under a 1st yr head coach.

    How could anyone possibly try and compare the two situations and feel slighted because 18 is doing well in DEN and we are struggling in Indy. Gotta be realistic man.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And as I've said for seven years, you win SBXL if Manning is willing to hand the ball off to James. Manning shut him down that day, not the Steelers defense. The Steelers defense only had to worry about Manning and on that day, the only thing keeping the score close was a blown call on Polamalu's interception. Neither of those teams were going to lose to Denver or Seattle.

    I don't believe for a moment that either Rhodes or Addai were near as effective as James. You didn't have to account for them defensively, they made their mark when defenses became one-dimensional nickel or dime packages. They didn't accomplish much against "base" defenses and you didn't see much "base" defense after James left. But with James there, you couldn't afford to play the dime against the Colts, and playing nickel all game long was risky.

    And that's when the decline began, even though Manning still milked a lot of regular season wins out of a flawed concept and roster.

    The Steelers aren't there yet, but Art Rooney III keeps saying, "we need to be able to successful at running the ball when we need to." And that's exactly what Denver did Sunday night - run successfully when they needed to or when we gave it to them - and it hurt us more than Manning's arm hurt us.
    The steelers jumped out to a 14-0 lead in the first and led 14-3 at halftime. It's hard to stick to the run when you're down in a playoff game, esp when the opposing team is running the ball and milking the clock. (The Steelers TOP was close to like 35 minutes. )

    Also, James wasn't exactly "lighting it up" he was averaging 4.3 ypc.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    4.3 YPC ain't bad in the playoffs. But I agree about having to play from behind.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Keep in mind, I said, "Difficult to stay logical." People dont always think straight when it comes to sports. Explaining how Luck makes sense long term and the Colts don't have a very good team doesn't seem to work if Manning is tossing TDs in prime time. Lots of people in Indy seemed convinced Kravitz somehow had a role in getting Manning cut.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I'd like to remind it's only been 1 game, so all these Luck vs Manning comparisons are silly. Wait until later in the season, or more realistically, next season when both players have had time with their new teams.
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    This is Indiana, our sports fans don't wait for anyone.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    People didn't immediately fall into a frenzy over Manning either. The circumstances were far different though, no question about that. Manning came to a Colts franchise that hadn't tasted success aside from the miracle 1995 run. But it did get to a point where people wondered if Manning was ever going to have what it took to take the next step. We actually had a game blacked out in 2003, which was Manning's 6th season (the year he won his first playoff game). That was the year where we lost to the Pats in the AFC Championship game. He had showed plenty of success before that, but we always flamed out in the playoffs and had gotten creamed 41-0 by the Jets the season before. People didn't start getting nuts about the Colts until the 03 playoff run. A decent chunk of Manning's career had already played out by then.

    If people don't want to wait around for Luck then that's their choice I guess. If he does start to have great successes a few years from now then they will eventually pay attention.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    If we have a losing season, which is possible, we need a stud RB to boost the offense. Manning had James early in his career, who was the top RB in football. Imagine how much better Luck would be if he had Arian Foster.
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    This Peyton thing is silly. Our team has enough deficiencies at this point, and with Manning's 30-something million on the payroll we'd have to cut quite a few more players than we already did to stay under the cap.

    If Manning was here the team around him would be worse than what Luck is working with. U-G-L-Y.

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  22. #39
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    4.3 YPC ain't bad in the playoffs. But I agree about having to play from behind.
    The Steelers were #1 that year in YPC defensively (#3 in total rushing yards defensively). 4.3 YPC was a good performance from the ground. 14 rushes in a playoff game? That's a recipe to lose, even if the game is played indoors. 38 passes and 14 rushes? That's some awful balance for a playoff game.
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Let's not forget in that 2005 loss to the Steelers, when the Colts got that miracle fumble recovery and had both a chance to tie the game OR win it, Manning wasted a few possessions going deep(and coming up empty) rather than trying to get Vandershank closer, let alone simply moving the chains and making a TD a little easier.

    At that point in his career Manning was still a little more inclined to go with the hero play rather than the more simple play in the crunch.

    Plus, Vandershank had already used up his late game FG mulligan against Tampa Bay. Don't forget, against TB Vandy MISSED the FG on that late game monster comeback of the Colts. But there was a penalty against TB that game Vandy another chance... and he made that one.
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I don't believe for a moment that either Rhodes or Addai were near as effective as James. You didn't have to account for them defensively, they made their mark when defenses became one-dimensional nickel or dime packages. They didn't accomplish much against "base" defenses and you didn't see much "base" defense after James left. But with James there, you couldn't afford to play the dime against the Colts, and playing nickel all game long was risky.
    They obviously weren't as good as Edge, but they certainly got the job done in 2006. Moving on without Edge was a big worry going into 2006, but the Addai and Rhodes combo proved to be extremely effective for the Super Bowl season.

    Addai in 06: 1081 yards, 7 TD, 4.8 YPC
    Rhodes in 06: 641 yards, 5TD, 3.4 YPC

    Addai became good enough that season that defenses at least had to give him respect. He was also very good for the first 2/3 or so of the 2007 season. So our run game was fine immediately after Edge left. The problem was Addai's best two seasons happened to be the first two seasons of his career. He never played any better than he did in those two seasons, and in fact, got worse. We were hoping that by year 4 or 5, he would be one of the better backs in the league. It never happened. From 08-10, the last three years of Manning's career here, the running game was certainly lacking.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 09-14-2012 at 06:34 AM.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    They obviously weren't as good as Edge, but they certainly got the job done in 2006. Moving on without Edge was a big worry going into 2006, but the Addai and Rhodes combo proved to be extremely effective for the Super Bowl season.

    Addai in 06: 1081 yards, 7 TD, 4.8 YPC
    Rhodes in 06: 641 yards, 5TD, 3.4 YPC

    Addai became good enough that season that defenses at least had to give him respect. He was also very good for the first 2/3 or so of the 2007 season. So our run game was fine immediately after Edge left. The problem was Addai's best two seasons happened to be the first two seasons of his career. He never played any better than he did in those two seasons, and in fact, got worse. We were hoping that by year 4 or 5, he would be one of the better backs in the league. It never happened. From 08-10, the last three years of Manning's career here, the running game was certainly lacking.

    Edge made the offense high powered because he could run and catch the ball. Addai was good, but didn't tun the ball hard enough and Rhodes was more of a short field running back
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I always felt like Edge was carrying his load on offense, he was a true stud that had to be accounted for... whereas Addai got his yards/TDs because defenses were so keyed on Peyton and the passing game. It was sort of an afterthought/nuisance for opposing defenses --- "Stop Peyton, Stop Peyton, Stop Peyton --- oh dammit, we had 8 guys back in coverage and forgot about Addai and he rattled off a 15-yarder, and now we gotta stick a guy in run support for a play or two to keep them honest --- Stop Peyton Stop Peyton Stop Peyton".

    He could never get those tough yards... all that dancing around and hesitating behind the line drove me nuts.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-14-2012 at 09:56 AM.
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    The Steelers were #1 that year in YPC defensively (#3 in total rushing yards defensively). 4.3 YPC was a good performance from the ground. 14 rushes in a playoff game? That's a recipe to lose, even if the game is played indoors. 38 passes and 14 rushes? That's some awful balance for a playoff game.
    We were LOSING the game. You don't keep trying to run the ball when you're losing. Of James' 13 carries, 8 were in the first half (IIRC) and we were DOWN the entire game. Yes I agree 100%, we needed to run the ball more. Hell the one year we did, we won the superbowl. But when you're playing the best defensive team against the run, AND you're down, you may need to start passing the ball if you want to score points.

    Plus, it's not like we got blown out. We were a missed FG away from going into OT, so the comeback would have been complete had it not been for Vanderjagt's miss.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Let's not forget in that 2005 loss to the Steelers, when the Colts got that miracle fumble recovery and had both a chance to tie the game OR win it, Manning wasted a few possessions going deep(and coming up empty) rather than trying to get Vandershank closer, let alone simply moving the chains and making a TD a little easier.

    At that point in his career Manning was still a little more inclined to go with the hero play rather than the more simple play in the crunch.

    Plus, Vandershank had already used up his late game FG mulligan against Tampa Bay. Don't forget, against TB Vandy MISSED the FG on that late game monster comeback of the Colts. But there was a penalty against TB that game Vandy another chance... and he made that one.
    Very good point there. Peyton had a tendency to try and go for the deep play, as opposed to hit a check down.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    Edge made the offense high powered because he could run and catch the ball. Addai was good, but didn't tun the ball hard enough and Rhodes was more of a short field running back

    Again, I would never say that they were as good as Edge. I'm just saying that they got the job done and that our running game was fine in 2006 and in the bulk of 2007. It wasn't until 08 that the running game began to look poor.

    We still had a good line in 06. That definitely helped.

  32. #47

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    The thing with Edge was he seemed to always get positive yardage, and almost always got a yard or two after he got hit. Addai and Brown so often only got a yard, or even stopped for negative yardage, usually getting pushed back rather than falling forward like edge.

    I can't remember what game it was, but the team was dropping 8 back to deal with Manning. And Addai was still struggling to get yards. I know the line was bad, but you shouldn't need a perfectly clear path to pick up 4 yards.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I always felt like Edge was carrying his load on offense, he was a true stud that had to be accounted for... whereas Addai got his yards/TDs because defenses were so keyed on Peyton and the passing game. It was sort of an afterthought/nuisance for opposing defenses --- "Stop Peyton, Stop Peyton, Stop Peyton --- oh dammit, we had 8 guys back in coverage and forgot about Addai and he rattled off a 15-yarder, and now we gotta stick a guy in run support for a play or two to keep them honest --- Stop Peyton Stop Peyton Stop Peyton".
    This was my point. Sure, those guys put up some decent numbers earlier rather than later. But they did it because after James left, the top ten defensive priorities when facing the Colts were:

    1. Stop Peyton
    2. Stop Peyton
    3. Stop Peyton
    4. Stop Peyton
    5. Stop Harrison
    6. Stop Peyton
    7. Stop Wayne
    8. Stop Peyton
    9. Stop Clark
    10. Stop Peyton

    So there was a gulf to run into. As I said above, you couldn't play a dime defense against the Colts when James was there - you respected what he could do. You could play a dime defense agains the other guys because you weren't that worried about them and occasionally shift back into a nickel if it seemed the Colts were going to go after the soft spot in the dime.

    The Steelers went into that game in January of 2006 hoping to stop the run so that the Colts would become a one dimensional passing team. That's always Dick LeBeau's #1 goal - take away the run so that the opponent is forced to pass. That's well documented and the Colts voluntarily made themselves one dimensional.

    The Colts last eight offensive plays from scrimmage were a thing of defensive beauty. We were dialed up and ready to blitz, and I believe we just barely missed a sack/ had a "QB pressure" on the 3rd and 16 play.


    1. 1-10-IND 18 (2:31) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass to E.James to IND 20 for 2 yards (K.von Oelhoffen).
    2. Two-Minute Warning
    3. 2-8-IND 20 (2:00) (Shotgun) P.Manning sacked at IND 12 for -8 yards (J.Porter).
    4. 3-16-IND 12 (1:33) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to B.Stokley.
    5. 4-16-IND 12 (1:27) (Shotgun) P.Manning sacked at IND 2 for -10 yards (sack split by J.Porter and J.Farrior).
    6. Pittsburgh Steelers at 01:20
    7. 1-2-IND 2 (1:20) J.Bettis up the middle to IND 4 for -2 yards (G.Brackett). FUMBLES (G.Brackett), RECOVERED by IND-N.Harper at IND 7. N.Harper to IND 42 for 35 yards (B.Roethlisberger, J.Tuman).
    8. Indianapolis Colts at 01:01
    9. 1-10-IND 42 (1:01) P.Manning pass to R.Wayne to PIT 36 for 22 yards (B.McFadden, T.Polamalu).
    10. 1-10-PIT 36 (:39) P.Manning pass to M.Harrison to PIT 28 for 8 yards (I.Taylor).
    11. Timeout #1 by IND at 00:31.
    12. 2-2-PIT 28 (:31) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to R.Wayne (B.McFadden).
    13. 3-2-PIT 28 (:25) (Shotgun) P.Manning pass incomplete to R.Wayne.
    14. Timeout #1 by PIT at 00:21.
    15. 4-2-PIT 28 (:21) M.Vanderjagt 46 yard field goal is No Good, Wide Right, Center-J.Snow, Holder-H.Smith. PENALTY on IND-M.Vanderjagt, Unsportsmanlike Conduct, 15 yards, enforced at PIT 36.



    Plus, it's not like we got blown out. We were a missed FG away from going into OT, so the comeback would have been complete had it not been for Vanderjagt's miss.
    And its a good thing the comeback was incomplete, since eight of those points occurred just a couple of plays after the blown call on the "incomplete" pass:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/playof...ory?id=2294309

    = = = = = = =

    My purpose is not to rehash that game. Even though I enjoyed all of it except for the play in the link above. But those that have been around here know that I've said many times that Manning-the-offensive-coordinator was Manning-the-QB's worst enemy that day. My point in this thread is to remind of the context behind my statement that I believe he's learned his lesson on balance. If you don's see the play-calling errors of that game then the context doesn't matter to you. That's fine.

    This isn't the National Passing League (although just think how crazy he would be under the Canadian rules/ in the CFL), this is regular tackle football and is still a 22-man game that requires balance and tradeoffs among all six dimensions (passing offense, passing defense, rushing offense, rushing defense, coverage, and returns). Denver whooped us Sunday night because they were not one dimensional. They ran 27 times for 90+ yards and picked up eight first down on the ground. That's running the ball when you need to. 26 pass attempts and 2 sacks mean there were 27 rushing plays and 28 passing plays. Can't argue for better balance than that! My team, on the other hand, is no longer the poster child for balance and had 26 rushes (for only 2 first downs and 4 TFL's, YUCK!! That's not running the ball when you need to) and 45 passing plays (including five sacks).

    Barf. Just barf. That's how you can win ToP 35 minutes to 25 minutes but still lose by two scores.
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  34. #49
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    the top ten defensive priorities when facing the Colts were:

    1. Keep Peyton and offense on bench and away from the football
    2. Stop Peyton
    3. Stop Peyton
    4. Stop Peyton
    5. Stop Harrison
    6. Stop Peyton
    7. Stop Wayne
    8. Stop Peyton
    9. Stop Clark
    10. Stop Peyton
    Fixed
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, that’s teamwork."

    -John Wooden

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I am just tired of seeing one team being the standard or the litmus test for "good football"...
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