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Thread: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

  1. #376
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Fair point. Few would argue that Peyton is one of the most clutch quarterbacks in regular season history. The wins Luck pulled out in the 4th quarter this year were the type of wins that Manning has had throughout his career.

    I would wager any amount of money though that Luck doesn't have to wait until his sixth season to win a playoff game like Manning did. It's a shame that Manning has struggled in the playoffs so much throughout his career. When he won the Super Bowl six years ago, I really thought the sky was the limit for him and that he'd make a serious run at being the greatest of all time since he was only 31 years old at the time. He got the Patriot monkey off of his back and finally won that elusive championship, so I figured nothing was in his way. But he hasn't faced the Pats in the playoffs since, yet has continued to struggle. It's disappointing that he's only won two playoff games since XLI. Obviously it's not all his fault, but you have to lay a decent chunk of the blame on him for that record, especially since he gets all of the accolades when his teams succeed.
    I will say this...Peyton has some of the WORST LUCK in Playoff history.

    --Saturday his defense gives up a 70 harder with 30 secs
    --Tim Jennings gives up a deep completion late in the 4th, then Caldwell calls a TO that allows the jets to kick a late FG as opposed to going for a TD
    --Hank Baskett
    --Ricky Williams fumbled against the chargers at the goal line, Marvin Harrison fumbles on the red zone, defense can't stop Billy Volek
    --defense couldn't stop Darren Sproles

    That's his last 5 playoff losses. Obviously he could've done more, but to say he's "lost" these games is false. I understand the QB gets all the blame and all the praise, but when compared to a Tom Brady or even a Big Ben, 18 has had some poor poor luck

  2. #377

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Don't forget Big Ben tackling Nick Harper and several key Mike V FG misses, in that game and in OT against Dan Marino waaaay early in his career.

  3. #378

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I will say this...Peyton has some of the WORST LUCK in Playoff history.

    --Saturday his defense gives up a 70 harder with 30 secs
    --Tim Jennings gives up a deep completion late in the 4th, then Caldwell calls a TO that allows the jets to kick a late FG as opposed to going for a TD
    --Hank Baskett
    --Ricky Williams fumbled against the chargers at the goal line, Marvin Harrison fumbles on the red zone, defense can't stop Billy Volek
    --defense couldn't stop Darren Sproles

    That's his last 5 playoff losses. Obviously he could've done more, but to say he's "lost" these games is false. I understand the QB gets all the blame and all the praise, but when compared to a Tom Brady or even a Big Ben, 18 has had some poor poor luck
    You make some fair points but I have to disagree about the "poor luck" factor. First of all, when you fail to put points on the board as a QB, you open yourself up to those type of bad luck situations. If Peyton would have come through more often, those freaky plays wouldnt have mattered.
    Also, if everything has to go right for you to win, then good luck with that. A QB cant have everything go right all the time. Brady and Big Ben went out and won the games and didnt put themselves in a situation where a fluke play gets them beat. Also, neither of them would lose a playoff game when they get 2 returns for TD's.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ransom View Post
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    Don't forget Big Ben tackling Nick Harper and several key Mike V FG misses, in that game and in OT against Dan Marino waaaay early in his career.

    Yeah, but Pitt was screwed when the Polamalu pick was overturned. It should have never come down to the Vandershank. Manning didn't play great in that game and should have handed it off to Edge more.

    The loss in Miami in the 2000-01 playoffs was not against Dan Marino. Jay Fiedler was the Dolphins QB in that game. Marino retired after the 1999 season.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0012300mia.htm
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-14-2013 at 10:50 AM.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    I will say this...Peyton has some of the WORST LUCK in Playoff history.

    --Saturday his defense gives up a 70 harder with 30 secs
    --Tim Jennings gives up a deep completion late in the 4th, then Caldwell calls a TO that allows the jets to kick a late FG as opposed to going for a TD
    --Hank Baskett
    --Ricky Williams fumbled against the chargers at the goal line, Marvin Harrison fumbles on the red zone, defense can't stop Billy Volek
    --defense couldn't stop Darren Sproles

    That's his last 5 playoff losses. Obviously he could've done more, but to say he's "lost" these games is false. I understand the QB gets all the blame and all the praise, but when compared to a Tom Brady or even a Big Ben, 18 has had some poor poor luck

    The onside kick certainly turned the tide of the Super Bowl and gave New Orleans a massive jolt, but there were still plenty of opportunities for the Colts to win that game. When New Orleans scored a touchdown on the drive after the onside kick, they took a 13-10 lead. The Colts immediately responded with a touchdown drive to take a 17-13 lead with about 6 minutes left in the third quarter. We wouldn't score a single point for the rest of the game. The offense deserves a decent chunk of the blame, especially since they served up New Orleans with a pick 6.

  6. #381

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yeah, but Pitt was screwed when the Polamalu pick was overturned. It should have never come down to the Vandershank. Manning didn't play great in that game and should have handed it off to Edge more.

    The loss in Miami in the 2000-01 playoffs was not against Dan Marino. Jay Fiedler was the Dolphins QB in that game. Marino retired after the 1999 season.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0012300mia.htm

    Good catch on the Marino error. You beat me to it. Also, I forgot about the bad call on the Polamalu pick.
    I still go back to my previous point concerning the lack of production being the problem for Manning and not bad luck. The Colts offense put up 17points against Miami in that OT playoff loss. The defense held Miami to 17 points in regulation. In the Pittsburgh loss, Pitt only scored 21 - a very winable game if the offense did its job. We need to also remember that the majority of $$$$ was always spent on the offense to give Manning multiple weapons. Harrison, Edge, and Clark were all elite until age and injury came in to play.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Yeah, but Pitt was screwed when the Polamalu pick was overturned. It should have never come down to the Vandershank. Manning didn't play great in that game and should have handed it off to Edge more.
    And was it 2 long pass plays or 3 instead of taking a shorter throw and trying to get closer before we ran out of downs and put Vandershank on the field?
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    And was it 2 long pass plays or 3 instead of taking a shorter throw and trying to get closer before we ran out of downs and put Vandershank on the field?
    Yeah I think he tried to hit Wayne in the endzone, IIRC.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    The point was that Peyton has had a tendency to force some things his entire career. Clean that up a little more and maybe his playoff record improves...
    You really think so?

    Player A: 524 completions 733 attempts 71.5% 5629yds 41tds 20INTs 8fumbles
    Player B: 481 completions 761 attempts 63.2% 5679yds 32tds 21INTS 3fumbles

    That breaks down to (Player A) 22.78 of 31.87, 244.74yds, 1.78tds, 0.87INTS per playoff game
    ..............................(Player B) 24.05 of 38.05, 283.95yds, 1.60tds, 1.05INTS per playoff game


    People tend to remember Peyton's bad playoff performances, and forget that he's had some great ones go offset them.

    At the end of the day, I agree, wins means more than any empty stats, but PM is a pretty good playoff QB.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-14-2013 at 12:01 PM.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I'll throw Player C in the mix as well.

    460 completions, 734 attempts, 5772yds, 38tds, 21INTS

    20/36.7 for 62.27%, 250.96yds, 1.65tds 0.91INTs per playoff game.

    I concede that Players A and C have better stats, but A&C are known as two of the best (if not the best two) playoff QBs of all time. While Player B is known as someone that chokes in the playoffs. Is the difference between the stats really that significant to think that Player B's team playoff struggles fall on his shoulders, while all the rings between A&C are because they're just so good?

    A - Tom Brady
    B - Peyton Manning
    C - Joe Montana

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  13. #386
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I'd still be very happy with either Peyton or Tom behind Center for a Playoff game.

    Denver failed Peyton more than he failed them, IMO.

    Hey, maybe I'm just a Manning apologist, though.
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    That was still a terrible throw and read on Peyton's part though on the pick. I don't know what he was thinking there. That's never been a good throw for him.

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  16. #388

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    That's all a bunch of if's and's and but's. Luck WAS available. It most certainly had a hand in his decision. I also don't buy your "tool" logic --- that's mostly your own perception. Show me the tweets where he was damning Manning to be damaged goods. I don't remember that, and I follow Irsay. The only slightly agitated tweets he threw Manning's way was when Manning went public with some stuff and Irsay said he needed to keep it private.

    The team needed to be cleaned out --- why would he keep Manning around? Why would Manning want to stick around on a rebuilding project, and take a huge hit himself against the salary? You're damning Irsay and not looking at Manning himself, who publically portrayed one image when all along I believed he wanted out for his own career. I don't blame him one bit. It could also be argued that Manning signed an extension without disclosing the full details of his condition to Irsay. It's all a bunch of woulda coulda shoulda --- but to put it all on Irsay is not the correct line of thinking, if you ask me. These guys are both power players and capable of handling their own business.

    In the end, it was an amicable departure, and it worked out the best for both parties, so being bitter about it is just pointless. The only regret I have is that Manning couldn't have retired here, but I also realize we would rode him into oblivion and likely set us back a good 5-10 years into developing our next competitive team.

    I guess you must've missed the Rob Lowe tweet about Peyton retiring etc and given how he was Irsay's friend he got that from somewhere.. regardless I found Irsay tweeting to be rather cringeworthy in general especially when the Colts had their losing streak and he seemed to be rattled easily over it. And in SB week how if Manning wasn't healthy he wouldn't bring him back etc. really he would've been better served saying nothing same for Manning but it was obvious he was driving down his stock.

    That being said regardless of what I may think of him I'm still a fan of the Colts and he's made good decisions thus far I just wish he wouldn't tweet but that's just my general issue with Twitter more than anything.

    Of course Manning wanted out but he's a player I hold them to different standards than owners every player knows how expendable they are they come and go but he never promised that Manning would be a Colt for life etc. Irsay did that.

    I just saw how the owner of the Niners handled Montana/Young and the Packers Favre/Rodgers and found it to be far better than Jimbo go figure.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Since,
    Don't your posts just confirm Peyton has fallen short in the playoffs both in wins and in stats (at least in regards to him being arguably the GOAT)?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Barely lagging behind two guys that get pretty much all the attention as the best two postseason QBs of all time, confirms Peyton's postseason struggles?

    I think it confirms that Peyton's performance isn't the driving force of why the Colts struggled for so many years. Any QB not named Brady or Montana would love to have those statistics.

    EDIT: I think Peyton is the GOAT, but I understand why people think otherwise. I just think when you look at the entire body of work each player has given, and not over-inflate team success, Peyton gets the edge. I don't think if you swapped out Brady for Manning that what happened in the post season would flip as well.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-14-2013 at 02:36 PM.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I saw on the NFL network where questions about Manning's arm were popping up... besides the INTs they were pointing at taking a knee in regulation with TO's in his pocket and deep throws...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I saw on the NFL network where questions about Manning's arm were popping up... besides the INTs they were pointing at taking a knee in regulation with TO's in his pocket and deep throws...

    I remember a short sideline pass to Stokley in the fourth quarter that was pitifully low. Stokley had to practically get on his knees to catch it. The ball was dead.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-14-2013 at 07:44 PM.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Barely lagging behind two guys that get pretty much all the attention as the best two postseason QBs of all time, confirms Peyton's postseason struggles?

    I think it confirms that Peyton's performance isn't the driving force of why the Colts struggled for so many years. Any QB not named Brady or Montana would love to have those statistics.

    EDIT: I think Peyton is the GOAT, but I understand why people think otherwise. I just think when you look at the entire body of work each player has given, and not over-inflate team success, Peyton gets the edge. I don't think if you swapped out Brady for Manning that what happened in the post season would flip as well.
    It's easy for the stats to get skewed a bit. Peyton has "only" played 20 playoff games, so it doesn't take much to skew the stats. For example, 9 of Peyton's 32 postseason touchdowns (28%) came in the two beat downs against Denver in 03 and 04. He has made the playoffs 12 times, yet almost 30% of his post season touchdowns came in two games.

    Peyton is a top 5 all time QB, but the postseason resume' prevents him from being the best ever, IMHO. Aside from the miraculous run six years ago, his post season career has been defined by missed opportunities and a bunch of "what could have been" moments. Our defense let Pitt get out to a hot 14-0 start in the first quarter seven years ago, but they only allowed 7 points after that. Our offense scored just 3 points throughout the first three quarters. And that's when we had Edgerrin James, so the running game cannot be blamed there. It was Manning who didn't hand the ball off enough to Edge while forcing throws. That was the best team of the Manning era and we just didn't get the job done. Then you have the two miserable showings in Foxboro, the 41-0 beatdown at the Meadowlands, the back to back losses against San Diego, the pick six against the Saints while not scoring a single point after the 6 minute mark in the third quarter, and the costly pick on Saturday.

    There have been too many offensive letdowns for Manning to be absolved of a sizable chunk of the blame. You can't blame eight one and dones and five home losses on poorly constructed teams when those teams were dominant in the regular season. That's not to say that the teams didn't have flaws, but Manning deserves blame for the numerous instances where the offense didn't play up to par in games where the defense played well enough to still win. I just don't think Manning can get all of the accolades for his team's success in the regular season while being absolved the blame for the 9-11 playoff record. The 9-11 playoff record and 8 one and dones are just as much a part of his legacy as all of the regular season wins.

    It's painful to admit, but I don't see any area where Peyton edges Brady except for regular season MVP's. Manning also obviously has better career totals because he had a three year head start on Brady. Brady has the five Super Bowl appearances, three championships, two league MVPs, two Super Bowl MVPS, and from 2007 onward he has been an absolute statistical freak. He had the 50 TD season in 07, missed 08, had a solid bounce back campaign in 09, and has been a beast the past three seasons. Brady has had the better career, IMO.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-14-2013 at 10:02 PM.

  22. #394

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    They beat them this year and were a Lee Evans drop away from beating them in the AFC Championship game last year.
    I hate to nitpick but it's mystifying to me why almost everyone calls this a "drop".

    Sterling Moore made very few good plays in his career, so the best one should not be ignored



    Sports science even broke it down:

    "Moore hit it out of Evans' hands less than a third of a second after Evans hauled it in. His slap generated just 50 pounds of force (about as much as a clap of the hands)...By using his hand like the blade of an ax splitting wood, Moore applies a concentrated force to the edge of the ball. This torque causes an initial rotation of fewer than 90 degrees, but that's enough to spin the ball off of Evans' forearm and out of his grasp.

    Our analysis reveals that when Evans' second foot makes contact with the ground, evidenced by the changing shape of his shoe, the ball has already been knocked loose. So in fact, it was not a catch. The officials got it right."
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I think "drop" gets loosely used when a receiver fails to hold on to the ball. I wasn't implying that the officials got the call wrong or anything like that. Moore made a great play, but Evans has to secure the ball in that scenario.

    He had time to secure the ball. A better receiver keeps possession of it and gets the touchdown. This angle shows there was time for him quickly secure it before Moore slapped it. He starts taking steps, yet doesn't tightly secure the ball as he should. It's certainly not an easy play, but it's the type that you're expected to make as an NFL receiver.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?featur...-GrnnPVM#t=28s

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  25. #396
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    No matter how good Peyton is, and no matter how many times we make excuses for his playoff losses, at some point you have to start looking for the common denominator in all of those losses.

    I'll be the first to admit it's way easier to think this way now that he's not the QB of my favorite team.

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  27. #397

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'll throw Player C in the mix as well.

    460 completions, 734 attempts, 5772yds, 38tds, 21INTS

    20/36.7 for 62.27%, 250.96yds, 1.65tds 0.91INTs per playoff game.

    I concede that Players A and C have better stats, but A&C are known as two of the best (if not the best two) playoff QBs of all time. While Player B is known as someone that chokes in the playoffs. Is the difference between the stats really that significant to think that Player B's team playoff struggles fall on his shoulders, while all the rings between A&C are because they're just so good?

    A - Tom Brady
    B - Peyton Manning
    C - Joe Montana
    QB's job is to win the game not merely put up stats. Manning is the greatest all-time stat monger the game has ever seen. He will always get his stats no matter what the game looks like. But to suggest he is in the same league as Montana and Brady when it comes to the playoffs is insane. They have 7 SB title's between them while Manning has only 1 (and pretty much stunk up the place during that playoff run). You play to win the game - not put up stats

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    It's easy for the stats to get skewed a bit. Peyton has "only" played 20 playoff games, so it doesn't take much to skew the stats.
    Tom Brady "only" has 23. So did Montana.

    They're that close in the number of games, even with Peyton's eight one and dones, because Brady and Montana both have some, and they also have missed the postseason, while they were completely healthy.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-15-2013 at 09:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
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    QB's job is to win the game not merely put up stats. Manning is the greatest all-time stat monger the game has ever seen. He will always get his stats no matter what the game looks like. But to suggest he is in the same league as Montana and Brady when it comes to the playoffs is insane. They have 7 SB title's between them while Manning has only 1 (and pretty much stunk up the place during that playoff run). You play to win the game - not put up stats
    Pretty hard to win the game with crappy stats. You've got to handle your business on the field with stats, before you can hope to win. It's such an easy cop out.

    There are 21 other starters out there, not including special teams. And whether or not those 21 guys win is completely dependent on just one other guy?


    I'm not saying Peyton has outperformed Brady or Montana, I'm asking does the drop off between the two to Peyton really warrant calling them the best ever and him a choker?

    Brady needed Adam V to win two of the three SB. They've not won since he left. History would be completely different if those two 40yd kicks would have missed. I know about the "if's" in there, but I'm just pointing out that it's not like Brady carried the Pats off into the sunset.

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  31. #400

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Pretty hard to win the game with crappy stats. You've got to handle your business on the field with stats, before you can hope to win. It's such an easy cop out.

    There are 21 other starters out there, not including special teams. And whether or not those 21 guys win is completely dependent on just one other guy?


    I'm not saying Peyton has outperformed Brady or Montana, I'm asking does the drop off between the two to Peyton really warrant calling them the best ever and him a choker?

    Brady needed Adam V to win two of the three SB. They've not won since he left. History would be completely different if those two 40yd kicks would have missed. I know about the "if's" in there, but I'm just pointing out that it's not like Brady carried the Pats off into the sunset.
    Peyton had better stats (minus the turnovers) than Flacco had but who made the crucial throws?
    The crappy stats comment is just not accurate. How many times did Joe Montana have a bad game but come up big in the final minutes to win a game?
    I dont think anyone can call Manning a choker. That is just too harsh. What he is not is a leader who inspires his team. A real leader would never have taken a knee with 30 seconds left in regulation and 2 timeouts. As John Unitas said: "You know you're a real leader when you tell the coach to go to hell." Brady, Montana, Unitas, or Elway would have at least tried to get their team in position to win that game. Why? Because they are real leaders and Manning is not.

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