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Thread: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

  1. #426

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    It was a direct order from John Fox.
    Fox isn't going to throw Manning under the bus now, but I thought that Manning can overrule any call, and usually does. Manning said that he called for the run on 3rd and 7. I don't think anyone asked PM about taking a knee, but I think that the widespread assumption that it was Fox's call is dubious. If Fox were to now say "That was what Peyton wanted" then obviously there would be a firestorm. Fox may be taking the bullet.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I thought taking the knee was anti-Peyton. Especially with two timeouts.

    Here's the article.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-400_162-...CBSNews.com%29

    As for what Elway would have done in the situation?
    "I thought it was the right thing at that time," Elway said. "I think with where the team was mentally and the situation we were in, I thought that it was a good move."
    Denver had a 99.9% probability of winning when Balt. was at the 30 with 41seconds left.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-15-2013 at 03:09 PM.

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  4. #428
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I think it does. When you're ranking all time quarterbacks, every little detail matters. Virtually everyone agrees that Manning is a top 5 all time QB, or at the very worst top 7 or 8. But when you're ranking the top three or deciding who is the best ever, then post-season record is inevitably going to enter the discussion.

    Let's compare Brady and Manning. I think their regular season successes are about even. Both have won a ton of games, both have won their division a billion times, and both have put up freakish stats. Brady from 2007-present has been putting up ridiculous statistics. Manning gets Brady on MVP's and obviously has higher career totals since he started playing three years earlier, but overall I think they are a wash in the regular season. Maybe slight edge to Manning since has played a bit longer and has the two extra MVPs.

    The biggest difference between Brady and Manning is the playoff record. It's not necessarily the 11 losses that hurt Manning because anyone who is extremely successful for a long time and makes the playoffs every year is inevitably going to have postseason losses. You can't win the Super Bowl every year. What kills Manning are the eight one and dones and only nine wins in twelve postseason appearances. Four of those wins, almost half, occurred in one single postseason. Outside of the 06 miracle, Manning's postseason career has been filled with disappointment. Is it all his fault? Of course not. But as Kravitz said, the offense only averaged 14 points in his 10 Indy playoff losses. It's happened so many times that it really can't be ignored.

    Brady only has two playoff home losses (compared to Manning's 5) and two one and dones. That's not to say that Brady is the sole reason for that, but who is the common denominator on the field for the Pats over the course of the last 12 years? It's Brady. He deserves a ton of credit for taking care of his home field in the playoffs.

    The glaring difference between Manning and Brady in the playoff record is enough to tip the scales in Brady's favor since they are similar on most everything else, IMO.
    Well if we're going to look at EVERYTHING from Manning's career, shouldn't we nitpick other players to the same degree as well?

    Joe Montana played with Jerry Rice (best receiver of all time) on a team that was pro-bowl caliber within most positions before the salary cap era. He played for Bill Walsh, a coach who was regarded as the best during his era, and a guy who created the west coast offense which was new and pretty much unstoppable at the time. He also had the help of an elite defense

    He's got 4 rings and a playoff record of 16-7. Of his 16 victories, 12 came in the years they won the SB, with 4 1st playoff game exits. His teams failed to make the playoffs in 3 seasons. He doesn't have the stats that many modern QB's have because he played during a different era.

    One of the first of the "clutch quarterbacks". I NEVER got to see him play except for when he played for KC, but I know enough about football to know he was a great great player.

    Tom Brady: played with the greatest coach of his era in Bill Belichick. Leaned heavily on the running/short passing game early on within his career. Is 17-6 in the playoffs with 3 SB rings, and 5 SB appearances (about to be 6) Has failed to make the playoffs once in his career, and has lost the first playoff game twice. Was involved in "spygate" where the Pats were basically accused of filming practice walk through's of the rams before the SB. In spite of having record setting offenses, team has yet to win a SB following spygate scandal. In fact, as Brady's stats have risen (starting in the 2007 F-U season) the Pats have been 5-4 in the playoffs.

    Prior to 2007, Brady averaged 226.5 passing yds/gm. He was 12-2 in the playoffs.
    Since 2007, Brady has averaged 289.6 yds/gm and is 5-3 with 2 SB losses to the Giants.


    Obviously both of these guys are great. But I feel they have had some benefits that Peyton hasn't, mainly in the coaching department. Mora, Dungy, Caldwell, and Fox are good to very good coaches. None of them are known for exotic/groundbreaking trailblazing with X's and O's the same way that Belichick and Walsh are. (Dungy was known as a Master motivator, and defensive guru with the "tampa 2" but he was never an innovator offensively at all)

    (and Yes I know Peyton played under Tom Moore, so I'm not trying to understate that fact)

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Here are a few links that dive deeper into Manning's post season career. Takes into account field positioning, average td drive length, etc. Some interesting info:

    http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=8700

    And the Manning vs Brady argument

    http://18to88.com/Articles/manningbrady.htm

  6. #430

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    ...Was involved in "spygate" where the Pats were basically accused of filming practice walk through's of the rams before the SB...
    100% factually inaccurate! This may seem a minor point, but I've learned that 95% of people actually believe this made-up crap.

    Taping of practices was a February 2008 pre-super bowl media surprise allegation that emerged 5 months after spygate, was denied, was refuted, and then was retracted on the front page of the paper that broke the made-up story, one week after the super bowl.

    "On Feb. 2, 2008, the Boston Herald reported that a member of the New England Patriots' video staff taped the St. Louis Rams' walk-through on the day before Super Bowl XXXVI. While the Boston Herald based its Feb. 2, 2008, report on sources that it believed to be credible, we now know that this report was false, and that no tape of the walk-through ever existed...The Boston Herald regrets the damage done to the team by publication of the allegation, and sincerely apologizes to its readers and to the New England Patriots' owners, players, employees and fans for our error."
    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3395152

    Spygate was the practice of using a staff member, in plain sight and wearing team apparel, during games, to videotape from the sidelines. Nothing more, nothing less.

    You can of course try to argue that spygate may have helped Brady, but if you do so I think it's important to separate myth from fact first!
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 01-15-2013 at 05:46 PM.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    100% factually inaccurate! This may seem a minor point, but I've learned that 95% of people actually believe this made-up crap.

    Taping of practices was a February 2008 pre-super bowl media surprise allegation that emerged 5 months after spygate, was denied, was refuted, and then was retracted on the front page of the paper that broke the made-up story, one week after the super bowl.


    http://sports.espn.go.com/nfl/news/story?id=3395152

    Spygate was the practice of using a staff member, in plain sight and wearing team apparel, during games, to videotape from the sidelines. Nothing more, nothing less.
    Lol didnt know it was crap when it was being reported. I retract it from my argument

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  9. #432

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    nfl.com article suggests that the Ravens DBs were getting increasingly confident as the game went on, creeping up, on the theory that Peyton was unwilling to try to throw deep.

    http://www.nfl.com/news/story/0ap100...il.1st10.Daily
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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  11. #433

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    This isn't as well-done as the other fake "texting" conversations but some might still get a chuckle out of it:

    http://profootballmock.com/peyton-ma...-still-stands/
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Okay, who's ready to tell me that going 30/42 396yrds 3td 1int gets the blame for not winning?

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Okay, who's ready to tell me that going 30/42 396yrds 3td 1int gets the blame for not winning?
    A quarterback whose offense does not put up a single point in the second half at home in a dome without question deserves some blame. Ryan also committed two critical turnovers in the second half: The botched snap and a costly pick. He also couldn't make a winning play at the end of the game when they were in the red zone.

    Atlanta took a 17-0 lead with 14:54 left in the second quarter. That's essentially taking a 17-0 lead with three quarters left. Yet they'd only score seven more points the entire rest of the game, and zero in the second half of the ball game. Ryan had a great overall day statistically, and if fantasy football were still going on then I'm sure his owners would have been happy. But he didn't do enough to win the game at home. If you're up 17-0, you gotta put a choke hold on the other team and win the game. Ryan played phenomenal at the very beginning of the game, but didn't do enough to win it.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I really can't see Manning taking that knee unless his coach specifically told him to do it. It doesn't make sense with all that I've seen of Peyton throughout his career. The interception in OT made absolute sense and was very Peyton-esque, though.


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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    A quarterback whose offense does not put up a single point in the second half at home in a dome without question deserves some blame.
    I get some, I'm asking for THE blame.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I get some, I'm asking for THE blame.
    No one ever deserves all of the blame for a football team's loss. But you gotta put a sizable chunk on him and his offense, IMHO.

  18. #439

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Honestly after seeing Brady yesterday I thought Manning's game doesn't seem so bad now..

    Of course different teams different matchups etc.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Basketball Fan View Post
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    Honestly after seeing Brady yesterday I thought Manning's game doesn't seem so bad now..

    Of course different teams different matchups etc.
    Yeah, at least Manning scored in the second half.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Mac_Daddy View Post
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    I really can't see Manning taking that knee unless his coach specifically told him to do it. It doesn't make sense with all that I've seen of Peyton throughout his career. The interception in OT made absolute sense and was very Peyton-esque, though.
    I can see it if he knew his arm wasn't a threat to get the ball down the field. ...Of course they only needed a FG and had TO's so who knows?
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    No one ever deserves all of the blame for a football team's loss. But you gotta put a sizable chunk on him and his offense, IMHO.
    I'm not sure how much better realistically you can expect a QB to play. When 30/42 for 400yds 3tds and a pick isn't good enough, there's a problem.

    It's like saying, X basketball player deserves the blame for a loss when he goes for 40pts on 12-17 shooting 6rebs 5assists and 2tos. Sure, they can play better, but they did more than their part. You've got to start looking at other facets of the game that were much bigger problems.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-21-2013 at 04:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I'm not sure how much better realistically you can expect a QB to play. When 30/42 for 400yds 3tds and a pick isn't good enough, there's a problem.

    It's like saying, X basketball player deserves the blame for a loss when he goes for 40pts on 12-17 shooting 6rebs 5assists and 2tos. Sure, they can play better, but they did more than their part. You've got to start looking at other facets of the game that were much bigger problems.
    I would rank not scoring a single point in the second half as one of the biggest, if not the biggest problem. I like Matt Ryan and find Atlanta to be a pretty likable team, but I just don't agree that the offense did "more than their part" when they put up a big fat zero in the second half of the NFC Championship game at home in their dome.

    Football is a situational game. There's a big difference between putting up points in the first quarter versus putting points up at the end of the game in a pressure cooker situation when the other team has had time to make adjustments. Atlanta was able to come out hot in their loud dome against a rattled Niners team and hang up some points at the very beginning. That wasn't very surprising. However, the Niners are way too good of a team to get bulldozed, and everyone knew that they would make a run. They also had the whole game for their elite defense to make adjustments against the Falcons, and that's why scoring in the fourth quarter of the NFC Championship game is much different than putting up 17 points at the very beginning. The 17-0 lead doesn't matter anymore when you're carrying a narrow 3 point lead into the fourth quarter. Your offense scoring a bunch at the beginning doesn't mean that they should be absolved blame for not being able to make a play at the end of a game in a pressure situation. Ryan fumbled a snap and had a terrible interception. If that offense makes just one big play in the second half, the Falcons win that game. They didn't get the job done. Jumping up to an early 17-0 lead might be enough to get them past the Panthers in the regular season, but you have to do more than that against a team like SF in the NFC Championship game.

    I don't put a ton of stock into the statistical aggregate when judging a player's performance in a crucial game like this. Like I said, if Ryan were on your fantasy team yesterday then you would have been very happy about his performance. But in the real game, his points were front-loaded in the beginning and he failed to make a winning play in the second half, which is what you have to do if you want to play in the Super Bowl. Conference championships aren't won by putting up zero points in the second half. Remember, Atlanta's inability to put a game away almost allowed Seattle to come back and win last week. You might be able to get away with it one time, but you can't win back to back playoff games by replicating that formula.

    In the four second half quarters at home this postseason, Atlanta put up just ten total points: 10 against Seattle and zero against San Francisco. They didn't deserve to be in the Super Bowl.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-21-2013 at 11:49 PM.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I get what you're saying, but at the same time do you really think it's realistic to expect even better play out of your QB than what Ryan did?

    From what I've gathered from all of this is that whenever a team loses, it's always the QB's fault. Everything you said applies to pretty much every game. The top 5 QBs in the NFL are sitting at home right now. Looks pretty clear to me that if you expect to step up and win in the playoffs, you've got to depend more than just having the best player on the field and thinking they can simply carry you there. Watching 12 seasons of the Colts having the best QB in the league, and then floundering in the playoffs as the big gaping holes are ripped open was enough visual evidence, watching other teams struggle with defense and running only reinforces it all.

    I think you're downplaying the importance of the other 21 full time starters and their influence on what happens.

    And that's been my point throughout this. We get practically similiar stats from QBs. One is a loser, the other are the two best QBs in the postseason of all time. The difference between them is razor thin, other than record. Clearly, there's something else going on.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-22-2013 at 09:17 AM.

  24. #445
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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    I get what you're saying, but at the same time do you really think it's realistic to expect even better play out of your QB than what Ryan did?

    From what I've gathered from all of this is that whenever a team loses, it's always the QB's fault. Everything you said applies to pretty much every game. The top 5 QBs in the NFL are sitting at home right now. Looks pretty clear to me that if you expect to step up and win in the playoffs, you've got to depend more than just having the best player on the field and thinking they can simply carry you there. Watching 12 seasons of the Colts having the best QB in the league, and then floundering in the playoffs as the big gaping holes are ripped open was enough visual evidence, watching other teams struggle with defense and running only reinforces it all.

    I think you're downplaying the importance of the other 21 full time starters and their influence on what happens.

    And that's been my point throughout this. We get practically similiar stats from QBs. One is a loser, the other are the two best QBs in the postseason of all time. The difference between them is razor thin, other than record. Clearly, there's something else going on.

    I agree that the line is razor thin. Tom Brady has always said that "it's a game of inches" in his postgame press conferences. He knows that all too well because he was a fluke Tyree catch away from having a perfect season which would have without question crowned him as the greatest of all time. If Garcon catches that wide open pass or if the Saints don't onside kick it, then Manning probably has two rings and would certainly be the GOAT on many more lists. But that's just football.

    But yes, I do think it's realistic to expect better play out of a QB than Ryan. Jumping out to a 17-0 lead against a Niner team that was rattled early on in the loud dome certainly helps, but that's not where the game is won. His offense put up 24 points total. That will win you a lot of games against the likes of the Bucs or Panthers, but it wasn't enough against a Niner team with a hot offense, in a dome for the NFC Championship. The 17-0 lead is meaningless when you're carrying a narrow 3 point lead into the fourth quarter. At that point, you need your potent offense to make a play if you want to advance to the holy grail of sporting events. Atlanta was not able to make a play when they had to and that's why they are sitting at home. Sure the defense also has to be held accountable, but it's not like Ryan did them any favors when he turned the ball over twice in crunch time. Also, Atlanta's lack of points in the second half shows that they were putting together very short drives, meaning that the tired defense was constantly being trotted back onto the field.

    I'm not saying that Ryan played "bad" by any means. He certainly played well enough to win a lot of games. But the Super Bowl is for the best of the best and you almost certainly have to make clutch plays at the end of the ball game against an elite opponent if you want to make it to the Super Bowl. Kaepernick did, Ryan didn't. I personally cannot classify Ryan's play as anything better than "OK" when he put up a big fat zero in the second half.

    I watched all of those Colts games too, and I would rank our under-performing offense as a major reason for us coming up short so many times. The defense played well enough in games (Pitt, N.O.) for us to win if our offense had played up to its billing.

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    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Don't want to mediate here but what you both say here is right and the truth, like most times, is in the middle. Yes, you need a big play to win in the playoffs and the QB should have steel balls to make it happen or at least initiate it. Yes, it would look bad if his team doesn't score for a whole half in their biggest match of the season so far. Yes, some QBs are regarded better if you judge them by their playoff record.

    BUT don't forget that this is a TEAM sport. A collective effort. Manning, had he won that game vs Baltimore, everyone on the next day would have sung his praises. His numbers were more than good. Yes, he threw two picks (one pick 6 that should have been a PI) but let's be honest here. The defense is first to put the blame on and has a large share of responsibility. Not all of it of course but a big chunk of it. Sure, Brady has a far better record than Peyton in the playoffs. Does that make him better or more clutch than Peyton? Maybe. Probably. But what I know for sure is that the rest of Brady's teammates stepped up too when they had to and helped their team when needed. You could argue Peyton or Ryan in this case, didn't have that help.
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