Page 17 of 18 FirstFirst ... 7131415161718 LastLast
Results 401 to 425 of 446

Thread: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

  1. #401
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,459

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Tom Brady "only" has 23. So did Montana.
    Right. These are small enough samples that the overall stats can be skewed a bit. Like I said, almost 30% of Manning's post-season touchdowns came in the two Denver blowouts. When you're only looking at 20 or 23 games, all it takes is a few blowouts to really pump up someone's stats. I try to look at it on a game by game basis. I see an offense that underperformed year after year and a bunch of missed opportunities, aside from one magical run in early 2007. Peyton had one of the greatest halfs in the history of playoff football against the Pats and no one can ever take that away from him. But in other years, the offense routinely came up short and did not live up to its reputation. I don't think Manning can be absolved a sizable chunk of the blame for that, especially when he gets all of the credit for things going great in the regular season.

    From a Kravitz column:

    In Manning’s 10 playoff losses in Indy, the Colts averaged just 14.2 points per game.

    http://blogs.indystar.com/kravitz/20...eyton-manning/

  2. #402
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Sure it's accurate. It's not accurate 100% of the time, but you gave a general statement so I responded with one. You've got to perform in the game at some level to win.

    If a guy is putting up stats, and his team isn't winning, then shouldn't the focus be on the problems of the team? Sounds like the player with the stats is doing their part.

    Peyton's biggest problem is and always will be him forcing throws. It could very easily be argued that it's more of a symptom of having so much pressure on your shoulders to make up the difference from where your team is lacking in other areas. The INTs are his fault, no question about it, but it's not like he's averaging 3per game while Brady and Company are averaging none. I don't think a 0.18 difference is all that statistically significant.

  3. #403
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Right. These are small enough samples that the overall stats can be skewed a bit. Like I said, almost 30% of Manning's post-season touchdowns came in the two Denver blowouts.
    And almost 30% of his INTs have came from two NE games. The skewing goes both ways, for all three players. They're all three dealing with the same issues, which is why I don't think pointing out the number of games means that much. Not saying it's wrong, just saying it's constant.

    Again, I'm not saying that Peyton has performed better than those two. Clearly he hasn't. I'm saying does the difference in their play warrant the difference in opinion?

  4. #404
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    (and pretty much stunk up the place during that playoff run).
    Eh? He was brilliant in the NE and Baltimore games. I think the Baltimore game was one of his best ever.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  5. #405
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,459

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And almost 30% of his INTs have came from two NE games. The skewing goes both ways, for all three players. They're all three dealing with the same issues, which is why I don't think pointing out the number of games means that much. Not saying it's wrong, just saying it's constant.

    Again, I'm not saying that Peyton has performed better than those two. Clearly he hasn't. I'm saying does the difference in their play warrant the difference in opinion?
    I think it does. When you're ranking all time quarterbacks, every little detail matters. Virtually everyone agrees that Manning is a top 5 all time QB, or at the very worst top 7 or 8. But when you're ranking the top three or deciding who is the best ever, then post-season record is inevitably going to enter the discussion.

    Let's compare Brady and Manning. I think their regular season successes are about even. Both have won a ton of games, both have won their division a billion times, and both have put up freakish stats. Brady from 2007-present has been putting up ridiculous statistics. Manning gets Brady on MVP's and obviously has higher career totals since he started playing three years earlier, but overall I think they are a wash in the regular season. Maybe slight edge to Manning since has played a bit longer and has the two extra MVPs.

    The biggest difference between Brady and Manning is the playoff record. It's not necessarily the 11 losses that hurt Manning because anyone who is extremely successful for a long time and makes the playoffs every year is inevitably going to have postseason losses. You can't win the Super Bowl every year. What kills Manning are the eight one and dones and only nine wins in twelve postseason appearances. Four of those wins, almost half, occurred in one single postseason. Outside of the 06 miracle, Manning's postseason career has been filled with disappointment. Is it all his fault? Of course not. But as Kravitz said, the offense only averaged 14 points in his 10 Indy playoff losses. It's happened so many times that it really can't be ignored.

    Brady only has two playoff home losses (compared to Manning's 5) and two one and dones. That's not to say that Brady is the sole reason for that, but who is the common denominator on the field for the Pats over the course of the last 12 years? It's Brady. He deserves a ton of credit for taking care of his home field in the playoffs.

    The glaring difference between Manning and Brady in the playoff record is enough to tip the scales in Brady's favor since they are similar on most everything else, IMO.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 01-15-2013 at 12:44 PM.

  6. #406
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I'm not talking about records, I'm talking about statistics. Does the difference in statistics explain the difference in opinion on how each player plays during the postseason, not how each team performs.

    That's why I listed the stats. I'm asking, what specifically in the game stats points out the difference in level of play between the two players, not between the two teams.

    If the PM was the Pats QB, and put up the exact same numbers, do we think the record is exact same (meaning 9-11) or were the Pats teams good enough to absorb the statistical difference between the two, without any significant movement of the records?

    At the end of the day, PM is 9-11 that's 100% fact. But the question is where in the statistics does PM fall short and where does TB/JM seperate themselves from the rest.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-15-2013 at 12:50 PM.

  7. #407
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    And I wish Bob would have listed the actual scores of those games. I know there's that scoreless game against the Jets in there, and atleast one 3pt game against the Pats, and I'm thinking there's another 3pter in there as well. Assuming there's two, that would be six points in three games. That would mean there's 134pts out there to be divided among 7 games. The average for those other 7 is 19.14pts, which is a lot closer to average playoff scoring.

    That also falls into the skewing category.

    Either PM has some really good games in there that bump his stats up to the level of TB/JM, or they've laid some stinkers themselves, which we tend to forget about.

    EDIT: I should have just looked at wiki.
    19-16
    23-17
    41-0
    24-14
    20-3
    21-18
    28-24
    23-17
    31-17
    17-16

    TB averages 18pts in their losses.
    23-17
    38-34 (against PM)
    17-14
    33-14
    28-21
    21-17
    Last edited by Since86; 01-15-2013 at 01:08 PM.

  8. #408
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,459

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And I wish Bob would have listed the actual scores of those games. I know there's that scoreless game against the Jets in there, and atleast one 3pt game against the Pats, and I'm thinking there's another 3pter in there as well. Assuming there's two, that would be six points in three games. That would mean there's 134pts out there to be divided among 7 games. The average for those other 7 is 19.14pts, which is a lot closer to average playoff scoring.

    That also falls into the skewing category.

    Either PM has some really good games in there that bump his stats up to the level of TB/JM, or they've laid some stinkers themselves, which we tend to forget about.

    Just 18 points against Pitt, 17 against New Orleans, 16 against the Jets, and 17 against the Chargers four years ago. The only time Manning lost an Indy playoff game while putting up over 20 points was the 07 game against the Chargers when we lost 28-24.

  9. #409

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Eh? He was brilliant in the NE and Baltimore games. I think the Baltimore game was one of his best ever.
    Sorry dude - Manning was terrible during that Super Bowl run of 2006 (with the exception of the 2nd half against NE). He was mediocre in the Super Bowl and flat out stunk the place up against Baltimore! (15-30 170yds and 2 INT's - only scored 5 fg's and not a single offensive TD). If you consider that great we have much different ideas of what a QB is supposed to do.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0701130rav.htm

  10. #410
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,459

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Sorry dude - Manning was terrible during that Super Bowl run of 2006 (with the exception of the 2nd half against NE). He was mediocre in the Super Bowl and flat out stunk the place up against Baltimore! (15-30 170yds and 2 INT's - only scored 5 fg's and not a single offensive TD). If you consider that great we have much different ideas of what a QB is supposed to do.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0701130rav.htm
    The Baltimore performance was fine given the circumstances. We were outdoors against an elite defense. The interceptions were basically as good as punts, IIRC. Manning managed that game just fine. His only truly bad performance in the Super Bowl run was the three pick game against the Chiefs, but it really didn't matter. He also never really needed to open it up against the Bears in the Super Bowl. He played fine.

  11. #411

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The Baltimore performance was fine given the circumstances. We were outdoors against an elite defense. The interceptions were basically as good as punts, IIRC. Manning managed that game just fine. His only truly bad performance in the Super Bowl run was the three pick game against the Chiefs, but it really didn't matter. He also never really needed to open it up against the Bears in the Super Bowl. He played fine.
    You have got to be kidding!!!!!! Archie, is that you??????

  12. #412
    Member Sollozzo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    16,459

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You have got to be kidding!!!!!! Archie, is that you??????

    You can't throw for 350 yards and 3 touchdowns every game. That was a smashmouth game in cold weather against an elite defense. Manning managed the game smart and didn't do anything stupid. The context of the interceptions are important. When they are basically as good as punts in a smashmouth game, they aren't that big of a deal. We beat Baltimore at their own game and Manning managed a smart game.

  13. #413
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    In four posts Troy went from aruging that wins are what matters, and the PM is a stat monger while losing, to criticizing PM for not putting up stats in wins.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-15-2013 at 02:19 PM.

  14. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:


  15. #414
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Sorry dude - Manning was terrible during that Super Bowl run of 2006 (with the exception of the 2nd half against NE). He was mediocre in the Super Bowl and flat out stunk the place up against Baltimore! (15-30 170yds and 2 INT's - only scored 5 fg's and not a single offensive TD). If you consider that great we have much different ideas of what a QB is supposed to do.

    http://www.pro-football-reference.co...0701130rav.htm
    Stats are for deciding who wins the regular season awards, nothing more.

    PM would have won several Superbowls here in Indy if he had always played like he did in that Baltimore game. Guy was just a beast of a player. I've always thought of it as one of his finer games.

    Seriously - I think the traditional stats for documenting QB play are maybe the least helpful group of stats in all of sports. Are you really going to tell me Peyton was better in that one game against Kansas City where we didn't punt (as an example) than he was against Baltimore that night? Because if so then, yeah, we're far apart on this.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  16. #415

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You can't throw for 350 yards and 3 touchdowns every game. That was a smashmouth game in cold weather against an elite defense. Manning managed the game smart and didn't do anything stupid. The context of the interceptions are important. When they are basically as good as punts in a smashmouth game, they aren't that big of a deal. We beat Baltimore at their own game and Manning managed a smart game.
    350yds and 3 TD's = great game
    15-30 (no offensive touchdowns and 2 INT's) = flat out stinks
    Anyone who is not a Manning apologist agreed that was a pathetic performance.
    The context was this = we won because we had a HOF fg kicker who bailed out our QB who stunk up the field that day for the second week in a row.

  17. #416

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In four posts Troy went from aruging that wins are what matters, and the PM is a stat monger while losing, to criticizing PM for not putting up stats in wins.
    Read the context of the posts. You give the QB credit for making the important/crucial throws that leads his team to victory. When the team cannot score a TD he didnt do his job win or lose!

    Passing yards without points = stat mongering

  18. #417
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    In four posts Troy went from aruging that wins are what matters, and the PM is a stat monger while losing, to criticizing PM for not putting up stats in wins.
    Haha, very nice. If you line the posts up one against the other, it's like there's two separate people posting.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  19. #418
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    I guess I didn't realize that the only important or crucial throws are all touchdowns. I've been corrected.

  20. #419

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by SoupIsGood View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Haha, very nice. If you line the posts up one against the other, it's like there's two separate people posting.
    The earlier posts are referring to Peyton not putting points on the board in playoff losses (as documented by Kravitz)
    The later posts are specifically pointing the Baltimore game alone.

  21. #420

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I guess I didn't realize that the only important or crucial throws are all touchdowns. I've been corrected.
    If only scoring 14.2 pts a game there cannot be too many crucial throws completed.

    Eight "one and done's" while averaging 14.2 pts per game in 11 loses. Yea, that's the greatest QB that ever played. I am amazed the Ravens even showed up Saturday due to their "fear" of the greatest clutch QB of all-time
    Last edited by troyc11a; 01-15-2013 at 02:32 PM.

  22. #421
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    If you judge crucial or important throws on the number of touchdown throws, or points in general, then sure, but that's not how crucial or important throws are judged by most spectators.

  23. #422

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    If you judge crucial or important throws on the number of touchdown throws, or points in general, then sure, but that's not how crucial or important throws are judged by most spectators.
    Lets just say taking a knee with 30 sec left in regulation and calling a run play on 3rd and 7 is NOT making the crucial play. That is called being a coward! Brady, Montana, Unitas, or Elway would not have been afraid in that situation, they would have at least tried to win the game.

  24. #423
    flexible and robust SoupIsGood's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Lappy Go Hucky
    Age
    26
    Posts
    17,540

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You can't throw for 350 yards and 3 touchdowns every game. That was a smashmouth game in cold weather against an elite defense. Manning managed the game smart and didn't do anything stupid. The context of the interceptions are important. When they are basically as good as punts in a smashmouth game, they aren't that big of a deal. We beat Baltimore at their own game and Manning managed a smart game.
    Not only that, but IIRC he broke their back with a long late drive that was run basically to perfection. Through the whole game he kept putting the offense in winning situations and came through in a few clutch situations that required nuts of absolute freaking titanium. That's basically exactly what you want from your QB in the playoffs. You have to eventually win one or two of those games, and no one cares if you normally pass for 650 yards with 8 TD's if you can't win those games.

    Do people forget how good the Ravens were that year, and how well they played in that game? Their defense was the points and yards leader, and they were all over the field that day. Honestly I think 9 times out of 10 no quarterback or NFL offense would be up to playing a defense as great as they were that night. Just a special performance.

    Even the performance against NE in the AFC championship--as great as it was, you could tell that the air had sort of been let out of NE during our rally. They were kinda out of gas. Playing Baltimore was like walking facefirst into a chainsaw the entire 60 minutes.
    Last edited by SoupIsGood; 01-15-2013 at 02:51 PM.
    You, Never? Did the Kenosha Kid?

  25. The Following User Says Thank You to SoupIsGood For This Useful Post:


  26. #424
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    20,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Lets just say taking a knee with 30 sec left in regulation and calling a run play on 3rd and 7 is NOT making the crucial play. That is called being a coward! Brady, Montana, Unitas, or Elway would not have been afraid in that situation, they would have at least tried to win the game.
    It was a direct order from John Fox. He was asked about it today, and said he would call the knee again. If Bilichick/Walsh/anyother coach told their QB to take a knee, the QB is going to take the knee. I think it's a horrible call, but come on.

    Not only that, but this has nothing to do with what was said.
    Last edited by Since86; 01-15-2013 at 02:55 PM.

  27. #425

    Default Re: Broncos/Manning 2012-2013 Season Thread

    Speaking of the Indy years, Peyton's productivity seem to best best in a dome and best in mild weather. Most QBs at like that (Brady's numbers are best in domes even though they're road games) but PM seems more so.

    In the playoffs you seldom get any mild weather on the road, and at some point unless you're a dome team and a #1 seed you have to get it done outside and on the road. I's like to see Peyton's dome numbers regular season vs. postseason- I'd bet that they are more similar than are his outdoor game numbers, regular season vs. postseason.

    So my guess, not running the numbers, is that you just get tougher conditions for PM to perform, more often, and against better teams in the playoffs. I don't think it's playoff pressure, it's just how weather affects a precise timing-based offense. To be honest, the bigger drop-off in performance in the postseason seemed to be guys like Marvin Harrison, again, just my eyeball guesstimate, but somebody could get the numbers.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

Similar Threads

  1. Purdue 2012-2013 Athletics thread
    By Kegboy in forum The Locker Room (General Sports Discussion)
    Replies: 753
    Last Post: 08-11-2013, 08:54 PM
  2. 2012-2013 NBA draft prospects thread
    By pacer4ever in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 1618
    Last Post: 06-28-2013, 06:35 PM
  3. 2012/2013 Premier League thread
    By Hypnotiq in forum The Locker Room (General Sports Discussion)
    Replies: 5
    Last Post: 09-29-2012, 03:11 AM
  4. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-27-2012, 04:35 PM
  5. 2012-2013 Season
    By Jose Slaughter in forum ABA League
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-16-2012, 02:44 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •