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Thread: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    More importantly, the Indy fanbase didn't turn on the team immediately after the brawl. In fact, they circled the wagons and held out hope for both the immediate future and long term future. Most people were expecting the team to come back the next year focused and ready with a chip on their shoulders. Instead we got the same old immature crap, except now Reggie wasn't there to counter any of it.

    It's a myth to think there was the brawl and then Indy turned their backs on the Pacers. It's convenient, but wrong. There was the brawl, then there was an inspirational final season for Reggie that included advancing to the 2nd round. Fans were ready to show the NBA the Pacers were taking no prisoners come that next season. And then from the start of the next season, opening game, there were teammates bickering, Artest pouting and wanting a trade, JO complaining, Sjax being Sjax (pass the damn ball), Tinsley who apparently had interest in the nightlife more than being an NBA player, Williams 'hanging out with murders', the absolute EGG that the Pacers laid against the Suns on Reggie's jersey retirement game, etc... and lo and behold fan interest waned. Imagine that.
    This is very important. Over time the story has morphed into the Brawl being what turned the city against the team - it turned the MEDIA against the team (well, after Stern made it clear that the Pacers should be blamed - anyone else remember ESPN defending the Pacers the first night?) but the fans mostly tried to support the team.

    The aftermath, which might have been tolerated without the brawl, is what piled on and changed people's feelings about the team. Yes, the Brawl was a contributing factor, but if the other crap doesn't come down then I think it gets looked on as a low moment that the team rallied and recovered from. Was that going to happen? Well, as we heard from some on hear at the time and was confirmed by Reggie, probably not because the locker room was dysfunctional.
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  3. #77

    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by pizza guy View Post
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    Guess we should submit a letter to the NBA to have Reggie pulled from the NBA Hall of Fame. I mean, other than a couple of records that have been broken since he retired, all he ever did was try hard and love this city for his time here.

    JO isn't Reggie, and I am not trying to equate them. But when it's all said and done, the brawl and a few injuries are what separate the two. Neither brought us a championship. Both brought us their best and a devotion to the team. Travmil is right, JO catches too much crap.
    Reggie is 7th in offensive win shares. He one of the best shooters in history. He did alot more than try hard.

  4. #78

    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Being honest can also be disrespectful.

    For example, if one honestly thinks the girlfriend of one of his friends is ugly, it would still be disrespectful to say that to his friend or the girlfriend.
    Of course I would never be honest to Jermaine to his face. So this isn't the same situation. And I fail to see the point of discussing players if we are going to be labeled as disrespectful everytime we say something negative about a player.

  5. #79
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Is there really something disrespectful of Jermaine in this thread?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I doubt Brown expected to see a melee breakout and for all I know he was leaving his starters in to embarrass them and make it a learning lesson for them so early in the season. Who knows? In hindsight he probably would've done things differently. But then in hindsight who wouldn't have?

    More importantly, the Indy fanbase didn't turn on the team immediately after the brawl. In fact, they circled the wagons and held out hope for both the immediate future and long term future. Most people were expecting the team to come back the next year focused and ready with a chip on their shoulders. Instead we got the same old immature crap, except now Reggie wasn't there to counter any of it.

    It's a myth to think there was the brawl and then Indy turned their backs on the Pacers. It's convenient, but wrong. There was the brawl, then there was an inspirational final season for Reggie that included advancing to the 2nd round. Fans were ready to show the NBA the Pacers were taking no prisoners come that next season. And then from the start of the next season, opening game, there were teammates bickering, Artest pouting and wanting a trade, JO complaining, Sjax being Sjax (pass the damn ball), Tinsley who apparently had interest in the nightlife more than being an NBA player, Williams 'hanging out with murders', the absolute EGG that the Pacers laid against the Suns on Reggie's jersey retirement game, etc... and lo and behold fan interest waned. Imagine that.
    QFT

    Dont forget Artest "wanting to retire to focus on his music career"

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  9. #81
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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Being honest can also be disrespectful.

    For example, if one honestly thinks the girlfriend of one of his friends is ugly, it would still be disrespectful to say that to his friend or the girlfriend.
    Part of the reason your scenario here works is because beauty is in the eye of the beholder. This discussion about JO is little a more objective that that, imo.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    I remember concluding that the locker room troublemaker Reggie kept referring to (and explicitly ruled out Artest) was Jamaal shoot em up Tinsley.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    QFT

    Dont forget Artest "wanting to retire to focus on his music career"
    And the strip shooting.

    And the Tinsley shooting incident.

    And Harrison using drugs.

    And Shawne Williams hanging out with murderers.

    And Jax cussing out his coach.

    BBall is right. The fanbase was loyal for a long time (me included). But it was the "one incident after another" torture treatment that finally broke us all down.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    QFT

    Dont forget Artest "wanting to retire to focus on his music career"
    That's right. He'd already been suspended by the team for two games BEFORE the brawl. That season was going to end badly, it was just a matter of "how?"
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  16. #85
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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    That's right. He'd already been suspended by the team for two games BEFORE the brawl. That season was going to end badly, it was just a matter of "how?"
    This was the same season where after the suspension he showed up in his boxers to workout one night.

    Didnt he also show up after one game where we played the Pistons? Or was that just a rumor

    I firmly belive that team had enough talent to make and even possible win the finals. I also firmly belive that something bad was going to happen.....sooner or later....probably sooner

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    To clarify, I believe JO's issue was the TYPE of touches, not the amount. He was being put in the high post and wanted plays for him run out of the low post. I posted plenty of arguments at the time defending JO slightly and my main case was that JO's FGAs don't change at all after that game. He was getting 15 FGAs (IIRC) and that's where it stayed. What changed was his FTAs I believe, as the low post got him to the FT line more
    Wasn't JO's infamous 7game blowup over his new low post role?

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Wasn't JO's infamous 7game blowup over his new low post role?
    Probably, I ended up not being able to follow the team that closely for a few years because I didn't have TV. But even the year of the Brawl and and moreso after, Jermaine didn't want to play in the post. He loved that little 15 footer he had. Me and my dad went to a Pacer game and saw him shooting around for the game and thats all he shot. I mean sure maybe he did some other stuff earlier, but still it seemed odd thats all he was shooting.

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Wasn't JO's infamous 7game blowup over his new low post role?

    No, he'd been taken out of the post. His touches were all facing the basket, too far out on the perimeter, and that was clearly not his strong suit. He needed the ball with his back to the basket where he could make a quick, explosive move. JO's issues were never post offense, unless he was forced to hold the ball for too long which got worse and worse each season under Carlisle, but his problem was post defense.

    But he was always better in the post with Brad Miller, who I think we can all look back at now and say that Brad was clearly the MIP of those teams because he allowed JO to play straight-up. (Cueing many more rants... )
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    I've stayed away from this thread, becausesometimes I get tired of re-living history.

    But I do want to make a couple of quick comments on JO. I have stated and will continue to say that he is the most talented NBA player I have ever seen wear a Pacers uniform. By talented I am using that term to refer to a combination of athletic ability and basketball skill.

    But he might have been one of the laziest players also. he rarely if ever blocked out. he coasted on defense a lot of the time. He didn't run the court well at all or at least not nearly as well as he was capable of. Simply put he did not maximize his talents. IMO this caused him to be a poor leader and someone who was not capable of leading a championship caliber team.

    I also always use this line of reasoning when it comes to JO. Mark Boyle who knows the players a lot better than we do was more negative towards JO than he was of Artest, Jax, Tinsley. I believe the word that was used was prima dona. I certianly don't know what all Mark was refering to, but that is good enough for me to use against JO

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I also always use this line of reasoning when it comes to JO. Mark Boyle who knows the players a lot better than we do was more negative towards JO than he was of Artest, Jax, Tinsley. I believe the word that was used was prima dona. I certianly don't know what all Mark was refering to, but that is good enough for me to use against JO
    And he was Granger's mentor for how to be a franchise player. Danny is not as bad, and he has gotten progressively better, but some of JO's prima donna fumes still linger.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    And he was Granger's mentor for how to be a franchise player. Danny is not as bad, and he has gotten progressively better, but some of JO's prima donna fumes still linger.
    I totally disagree with that statement and I don't think he carries himself that way at all - on the court or off the court.

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  25. #92
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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    BBall, I actually agree that the fans/city didn't insta-turn on the Pacers after the brawl. But what bothers me is that due to other stuff fans started to recall the brawl in a different light. If those guys had manned up and come back with a sense of family and team goals then I'd like to think that the fans wouldn't view the brawl as "a bunch of thugs" but rather as the out of control drunk, angry and irresponsible set of fans it was.

    I think we all agree that if it wasn't for the brawl then something else was going to set that locker room on fire sooner or later. But that doesn't make their own frustration and actions of the brawl terrible. As I've argued many times over, it's not even close to the worst sports fan brawl. It just happened on ESPN and they eat up stories. The kids here don't know we've seen things like 5 cent beer night which did involve players and fans "interacting". We've seen a Bruins fan turned upside down and beat with his own shoe and that meant players climbing the hockey glass to get to him/them.


    What's sad is that if they had just been screwed over by the brawl but really liked each other and circled the wagons, then Reggie would have returned and they might have won the title the next year in one of the great sports stories of all time.


    And don't get me started on firing Rick to make JO/Tinsley happy. Ron, JO, Tins, Al, Fred Jones...none of those guys looked better with other teams/coaches than they did playing for Rick. The plays, schemes and strategy work and make you look better, so maybe STFU and let Rick make you look good even if you find his demeanor bland and distant.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 09-13-2012 at 09:28 PM.

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  27. #93
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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    And he was Granger's mentor for how to be a franchise player. Danny is not as bad, and he has gotten progressively better, but some of JO's prima donna fumes still linger.
    Such as how....? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, but I don't see what makes Danny a Prima Donna unless there are things that are outside of common knowledge?
    Granted, one could say the same about J.O. if they didn't have the insight/inside that some of us have/had during his time here.
    ...Still "flying casual"
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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by Roaming Gnome View Post
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    Such as how....? I'm not saying I agree or disagree with you, but I don't see what makes Danny a Prima Donna unless there are things that are outside of common knowledge?
    Granted, one could say the same about J.O. if they didn't have the insight/inside that some of us have/had during his time here.
    Prima Donna has all sorts of definitions, I'm sure. These aspects of Prima Donna Granger is NOT:
    -Arrogant
    -Knowingly places his personal success above team success

    But, to me, Danny has a bit of this that came from JO (and OB did not help):
    - The franchise player needs lots of touches and shots
    - Defense is not as important as the offensive prowess of the franchise player

    Like I said, Danny has all but gotten over this, with the recent playoffs teams, but he had to detox from the former years and a few fumes may still linger.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    But, to me, Danny has a bit of this that came from JO (and OB did not help):
    - The franchise player needs lots of touches and shots
    - Defense is not as important as the offensive prowess of the franchise player
    I'd argue that these characteristics were forced by necessity or ability (including mental focus), not attitude.

    He has been the focal of the offense, sometimes by plan and sometimes because nobody could hit anything and SOMEONE has to keep trying to hit a shot. I've not seen any evidence of him demanding the ball or meeting with the coaches to complain about not getting touches. At most, I think he thinks of himself as more crucial to the offense than he is able to be, but that's understandable when almost no one else was able to prove otherwise to him. I DON'T think he is going to get upset or go all pouty if someone else is getting touches and is being successful with them.

    Even if you grant that Danny sometimes takes it easy on defense, I don't think it's because he thinks defense isn't important. I certainly don't think he is in any way refusing to play defense when he is asked to step it up on defense. I think he has a problem concentrating on defense when he is working on offense, but I think it is a mental focus issue not an arrogance/"too good to play defense" issue.
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    Default Re: Reggie retired because of the immaturity of his teammates

    I thought Danny was pretty involved on defense this last season anyway, so it's becoming a moot point.

    And to me it was far more a product of JOB and his schemes than a learned behavior from JO. Most of the change in Danny's game came away from JO, not playing with him.



    But this underlying debate about JO's legacy is pretty interesting and convoluted. So many factors in play, enough that I've definitely been on both sides in my life. I've defended him around here (and Star) because the dude took a one handed free throw due to the shoulder tear just so he could be available later in the SAME GAME. The only reason he didn't have a replacement shoot for him was because it would have meant he couldn't play any more in that game, per league rules.

    Think about the toughness and team spirit that shows. That's not "me first". As it turned out the injury was so bad he was done for many weeks (6-8 as I recall) but he stood out there and forced himself along while in definite pain just so he could be there fore his team later that game.

    And he took himself out while on the verge of matching or breaking Reggie's single game point total.

    And he was a league leader in charges taken, which when paired with his shot blocking made him a serious rim defender. That's not prima donna it's all about me stuff.


    But he also showed his childish "It's about me" attitude with Rick, Ron and others and gave us never ending "I'm going to show everyone I'm the man this year" schtick every summer. He moaned to refs and sometimes wouldn't get back (ala Jack) because of ref whining.


    In a lot of ways he and Ron are similar. I think they are both children trying to be men. They mean well and they do work hard, but then they flash the childish emotional responses and extremely self-centered behavior of a 5 year old or a moody teenager. One minute they are going to take on the world and the next no one understands them and they don't care any more.



    And every one of these discussions ends the same - what a waste, what that team could have been. Like parents watching their 4.0 kid drop out of college so they can follow Phish on the road for 3 years.

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