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Thread: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    You really think Iverson was getting preferential treatment from the NBA and the refs? Say what you want about the guy everywhere else in his life but he put his body on the line to draw fouls. He was fearless with the ball in his hands. Of all the players to suggest getting preferential treatment, Iverson seems pretty unlikely. I imagine few superstars have caused more headaches for Stern.
    He did what Wade does now for the most part - throw himself into defenders to draw fouls. And he got the calls far more often than not. He was a below average shooter and defender. Once he lost his speed (aka ability to draw fouls), he was awful.

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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    He did what Wade does now for the most part - throw himself into defenders to draw fouls. And he got the calls far more often than not.
    I think this is a complete misrepresentation of both Iverson and Wade. Completely dispresctful of two of the greatest to play the game.

    While drawing fouls is/was a part of their game, that can be said for every good player. Ever. Including Reggie. But it isn't their main facet.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    One of the most clutch players in history
    Smothered Chicken!

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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    AI was a great scorer. There is a reason the GM of the Sixers went out and put four of the best defenders in the league around him. He can't defend outside of playing the passing lanes, which he did extremely well. He was easy to pass over or drive around or post up or shoot over or well, just about anything. Those teams made it to the finals because they defended at such a high level and AI was capable of making tough shot after tough shot after tough shot. Throw in an occaional 12 footer from the other players (not named Eric Snow) and the team had a touch of versatility. That was a very good team and the year they made it to the finals they had a lot go right for them to get there. I'm not talking about AI being great or not, he was. But the GM of that team deserves more credit for putting the right team around the kid.

    Reggie and Ray are a different ball game. Reggie generally played on much better teams overall than Ray did. Most of Ray's playoff appearances included him carrying his teams to even get there. Reggie didn't get double-teamed like Ray did typically. Look, I LOVE Reggie Miller. I just think that the general opinion on Ray Allen on this board is way less than it should be because he is getting compared to their idol. He's my idol too. I think Mark Jackson was one of the best PGs ever too. McKey and the Davis boys and Chuck Person all hold special places for me too. Jeff Foster might be the greatest center ever IMO (ok not really). Ray Allen is as good of a basketball player as Reggie was. Both top ten all time SG. It becomes an exercise in splitting microfibers in these discussions.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    I think this is a complete misrepresentation of both Iverson and Wade. Completely dispresctful of two of the greatest to play the game.
    OK, while I am fully in with the discussion of Iverson as a top player, one of "the greatest to play the game" tears it for me. He lacked far too much to get to that level.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Iverson was a more individually talented player... Reggie was by far a more impactful team player. There's a reason Miller's teams were constantly conference finals candidates. He was a great leader, he set examples for his teammates, he was the pro of pros, his workout ethic was legendary, his drive and competiveness late in games and in the playoffs were not matched by many people in history, and it's all of these things that Iverson fell far short on. Iverson was a tremendous offensive player, but his game was all about *him*, and how his teammates complemented *him*. Iverson's game was more about how his teammates elevated him (give him the ball and clear out), whereas Miller's game was more about how he elevated his teammates on so many levels. Miller was also unfairly underrated in a lot of aspects, but namely defensively.

    Not only that... but Iverson was a PG, imo... lol. He was a scoring PG. He was... Derrick Rose Lite. DRose... Iverson.... Marbury.... to me those guys are all very similar players. Impressive to watch individually, but I never felt like they were championship caliber... DRose was legitimately close to being that, though. I still think we've seen the best of DRose, it's tough for me to imagine him and the Bulls being close to what they were before after his injury and the questionmarks around that team. Rose had the right mentality to go along with a skillset like Iverson and Marbury, but I always questioned whether his body would hold up. You could tell just watching, he was pushing his body to a point that nobody can sustain.

    I guess the best way for me to relate it is this.... between Iverson and Tim Duncan, who's game was more enjoyable to watch? Likely Iverson, on a pure entertainment level (although you'll get the purists who say "I enjoy watching Duncan's fundamentals better" blah blah blah... fundamentals aren't always fun to watch). Between those two, however, who would you bet on to win a championship? Duncan. It's just a certain way of playing and fitting into a scheme and making the sum of the parts better than yourself. I never felt like Iverson was in that mold at all, and thus was never really a true championship contender. He was more like a.... circus side show.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-07-2012 at 10:35 AM.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    42.5% shooters who star by volume shooting, like Iverson, do not belong in any such discussion, whether you consider him a PG or not.

    Big O was a PG. So was Maravich. So was Earl Monroe, despite being paired for years with PG Clyde Frazier. I consider West a SG.

    My list:

    MJ
    West
    Kobe
    Wade
    Clyde
    Gervin
    Reggie
    Dumars

    An ESPN panel has a similar list but includes Iverson, with Reggie #7

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...me-greatestsgs

    Fan voting at ESPN in the above link has this ranking:

    1 Jordan (39,178 #1 votes) 662,176 total poll points
    2 Bryant (3,989) 576,960
    3 West (519) 525,234
    4 Drexler (158) 396,665
    5 Gervin (86) 385,612
    6 Maravich (485) 380,135
    7 Iverson (287) 376,933
    8 Miller (225) 326,212
    9 Monroe (38) 257,438
    10 Dumars (155) 245,920
    11 Wade (153) 211,970
    12 Thompson (42) 192,212
    13 Jones (34) 155,151
    14 Greer (26) 143,180
    15 Sharman (37) 112,509


    so any argument that "most non-homers think he's not top 10" is silly.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 09-07-2012 at 11:39 AM.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    I think Wade could be ranked higher than Reggie Miller when it's all said and done, but if he retired today would he? No, he doesn't have the longevity yet of Reggie. I think that's what you have to take in account right now. For instance if Kobe retires today, is he still ranked higher than Reggie? Absolutely.

    The Ray Allen, Reggie debate is a close one. I don't think you could say that either one ever had any great help (until Allen with the Celtics), but both had some respectably good help throughout a lot of their respective careers. Reggie had Smits, Mark Jackson, J. Rose, and the Davis's; whereas Allen had Cassell, Big Dog Robinson, and Anthony Mason. It was only in Seattle where Allen was largely left for dead.

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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    OK, while I am fully in with the discussion of Iverson as a top player, one of "the greatest to play the game" tears it for me. He lacked far too much to get to that level.
    He's the best under 6'2" scorer in the history of the game.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    From what I always understood clearly defined positions like POINT guard and SHOOTING guard didn't come around until about 30 years or so, give or take. Before then, there were guards, forwards, and posts. This is why guys like Jerry West, Big O, etc were good scorers but also averaged high assist numbers as well, or why guys like Elgin Baylor (who was 6-5) was a double double machine. Players tended to just play to having clearly defined "roles"
    The Big O and The Logo were the Bird/Magic of the 60's. These guys, especially Oscar, were beyond position, they were the total game and leaders. Everyone who played with them played better. If Oscar is not in the G.O.A.T. conversation, there is not a list, IMHO.

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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    He's the best under 6'2" scorer in the history of the game.
    No, he scored the most total points in a career, among players that size or smaller.

    Efficiency matters. He was a tremendous ball-hog with freedom to throw up anything.

    He was no Isiah Thomas. Heck, he was no Tiny Archibald either, or Calvin Murphy for that matter.

    Isiah: 45%
    Tiny: 47%
    Calvin: 48%
    AI: 42.5%, 40% in the playoffs

    -----
    on the thread topic,

    look at "effective FG%" at under advanced statistics at basketballreference.com

    Reggie: 54.4%
    MJ: 50.9%
    Gervin: 50.7%
    Wade: 50.0%
    Dumars: 49.8%
    Drexler: 49.5%
    Kobe:48.6%
    West: 47.4% (but no 3-pt. shot in his era, likely would be >50 with it)

    Iverson: 45.2%
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 09-07-2012 at 01:40 PM.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I don't like including combo guards in a list of shooting guards... Iverson, Big-O, West, and Dumars to me were more PGs than anything, but they also played some 2-guard. Here's my list of top pure shooting guards up to Reggie:

    1. Michael Jordan
    2. Kobe Bryant
    3. Clyde Drexler
    4. Dwyane Wade
    5. Reggie Miller
    I can agree that maybe AI and Big O weren't shooting guards but Dumars? He played 90% of the time at SG. They had this really good PG there by the name of Isiah Thomas who played about 38 minutes a game and even when he went to the bench, Vinny Johnson or Gerald Henderson would come off the bench to play PG. Even during the Grant Hill days Dumars split time with Allen Houston for a couple of years at SG. Houston would go to the bench and Lindsey Hunter would come in and run the point.

    Joe wasn't just a SG, he was one of the best all-around SGs to ever play the game.
    Last edited by naptownmenace; 09-07-2012 at 01:53 PM.

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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Sure, but he also spent 5 years mostly at PG. He was a 'tweener in size to begin with, really kind of small for a SG, but big for a PG and he had the ability to move the ball up the court and set up the offense.

    I agree with you that of all those mentioned, Dumars might be the greyest of those candidates, where you might aim him more at the SG position... But even so, getting back to the point of this thread, I don't know if I'd place him above Reggie. He was a fine player, but.... as good as Reggie? I mean let's face it, Dumar's cast was considerably more epic than what Reggie had most of his career. Isiah... Lambier... Rodman... Salley. Reggie never had an Isiah-level player alongside him... you'd almost certainly be talking championships if he had. Dumars wasn't the undisputed leader of that team and carried them on his shoulders like Reggie did with Indy. I just think they have different contexts and while Dumars certainly was a very fine player, I can't imagine that if you reversed the two players teams, that Dumars would've been able to carry the Pacers for almost two decades... whereas you could easily see Reggie fitting in with those bad boys.

    I'm not saying that any of those 4 players weren't fantastic at that position, but it's tough to pigeon-hole a guy who can play across multiple positions and say "he was this". Just doesn't seem logical to compare Reggie Miller to... Oscar Robertson. Allen Iverson. I don't really recall Miller having any head-on-head battles with Iverson. Did they ever draw assignments on each other? I mean they played against each other, but it doesn't seem like Iverson was manning Miller up on D, or taking Miller off the dribble unless it was a defensive switch gone wrong. I could have forgotten I spose, someone correct me.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-07-2012 at 03:39 PM.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    I could make an addendum to my prevous list and add Gervin above Reggie. He's the one shooting guard I really have zero familiarity with, as he played before my time and I've not seen a lot of footage of him. But by all accounts he was tremendous.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    I found this article from 4 years ago. They included most of the guys were talking about as SGs... Iverson, West:

    http://sports.espn.go.com/nba/dailyd...me-GreatestSGs

    Few comments below it though saying they may not have Iverson ranked so high still.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-07-2012 at 03:52 PM.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    From what I always understood clearly defined positions like POINT guard and SHOOTING guard didn't come around until about 30 years or so, give or take. Before then, there were guards, forwards, and posts. This is why guys like Jerry West, Big O, etc were good scorers but also averaged high assist numbers as well, or why guys like Elgin Baylor (who was 6-5) was a double double machine. Players tended to just play to having clearly defined "roles"
    2 guards, 2 forwards, 1 center.

    The idea of "point guard", and "power forward" in particular were new in the early 1980s.

    To the topic at hand...

    I don't see how a guy that was never better than third-team all-NBA in a single season is in the top-three of all time. Or even the top-five.

    Due to longevity and a reputation for clutch play over the second half of his career, I can see him in the top-ten, but not much higher than that.

    Mitch may not have lasted 18 years, but nearly everybody would have taken Mitch Richmond in his prime over Reggie in his prime.

    Reggie had sustained 'really-goodness', but did not reach as high of a level as, say, Glen Rice during his Charlotte years.

    And I like Reggie and appreciate all he did for Indiana, but some of these opinions are based on love and not an objective analysis of the position.
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  22. #92

    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And I like Reggie and appreciate all he did for Indiana, but some of these opinions are based on love and not an objective analysis of the position.
    How do you explain the 45,000+ voters in the 2008 ESPN poll (a poll neither coinciding with his retirement nor with his HOF induction, so no extra publicity-driven "Reggie love") that placed him solidly in the top 10 all-time at his position? Unless you are (rightfully) criticizing those who have him in the top 3-4. He belongs in the top 10 though.

    http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank...02/versionId/1

    Best career does not equal best peak of career either. David Thompson as a SG and Bernard King as a SF are not up there in the top 5 at their positions for the shining few seasons when they reached that level.

    Final point: regular season awards and regular season performance are only part of the equation, but they are all that goes into all-NBA teams and MVP voting.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 09-07-2012 at 04:53 PM.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    How do you explain the 45,000+ voters in the 2008 ESPN poll (a poll neither coinciding with his retirement nor with his HOF induction, so no extra publicity-driven "Reggie love") that placed him solidly in the top 10 all-time at his position?

    http://espn.go.com/sportsnation/rank...02/versionId/1
    I'll buy-top ten. But not top-three or top-five. I don't know that I can name ten that had better careers overall, but I can name quite a few that had higher peaks.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    2 guards, 2 forwards, 1 center.

    The idea of "point guard", and "power forward" in particular were new in the early 1980s.

    To the topic at hand...

    I don't see how a guy that was never better than third-team all-NBA in a single season is in the top-three of all time. Or even the top-five.

    Due to longevity and a reputation for clutch play over the second half of his career, I can see him in the top-ten, but not much higher than that.

    Mitch may not have lasted 18 years, but nearly everybody would have taken Mitch Richmond in his prime over Reggie in his prime.

    Reggie had sustained 'really-goodness', but did not reach as high of a level as, say, Glen Rice during his Charlotte years.

    And I like Reggie and appreciate all he did for Indiana, but some of these opinions are based on love and not an objective analysis of the position.
    Uhhhh no. Mitch and Glen, both fine players, never carried a team, accomplished anything remotely close to Reggie in the playoffs, did not sustain as long, and neither is in the Hall. The most defining event to me was Reggie's last game, where the opposing coach called a timeout to give a player a standing ovation. You just don't see that, ever. He was massively respected by his peers in the league, moreso than it would appear by fans. I'll go with the opinion of his peers over dissenters on a messageboard. Reggie in Hall --- Mitch and Glen not. 'Nuff said.

    One season does not a HoF'er make. If that was the case, jermaine O'Neal is a shoo in, since he arguably had one season that was debatably better than any of Reggie's, statistically. Throw Granger in there, too, since he had a higher statistical "peak".

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    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-07-2012 at 07:50 PM.
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    The HOF is about many things, but a few peaks don't get you there. Miller's career had a lot to say, but the fear he struck in opponents at crunch time is why he's in the HOF. His main value was that there wasn't a player who could stop him from getting his shot off. Hit or miss. Reggie is special because of that skill and just how highly valued it is in the important games....which is all that matters in the NBA....

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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Reggie.
    God.




    Everyone else. **** you, rational thinking. Dude's my hero.

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  30. #97
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Uhhhh no. Mitch and Glen, both fine players, never carried a team, accomplished anything remotely close to Reggie in the playoffs, did not sustain as long, and neither is in the Hall. The most defining event to me was Reggie's last game, where the opposing coach called a timeout to give a player a standing ovation. You just don't see that, ever. He was massively respected by his peers in the league, moreso than it would appear by fans. I'll go with the opinion of his peers over dissenters on a messageboard. Reggie in Hall --- Mitch and Glen not. 'Nuff said.

    One season does not a HoF'er make. If that was the case, jermaine O'Neal is a shoo in, since he arguably had one season that was debatably better than any of Reggie's, statistically. Throw Granger in there, too, since he had a higher statistical "peak".

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    I'm not disputing any of that.

    But I'm not putting Reggie in my top-five as I'd absolutely take the 1993 version of Petrovic over any vintage of Reggie, the 1994 version of Sprewell (and probably also the 1999 version of Sprewell) over any vintage of Reggie, the 1996-98 version of Glen Rice over any vintage of Reggie, and the 1996-98 version of Mitch Richmond over any version of Reggie.

    Reggie had a better overall career than every one of them. Probably wouldn't have had a better career than Drazen but we'll never know.

    But during Reggie's peak years of 1994-1998, he was typically around the fourth or fifth best SG in the league. (There was also this Jordan dude playing most of those seasons as well.)

    We're celebrating Reggie's longevity and overall career with his vote into the Hall of Fame. He gave us a lot of memories. Its an interesting situation, because his overall career, due to longevity, means he's remembered more fondly than guys that routinely were better than him -- even at his own peak -- but faded away faster.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    You'd take those guys because they had 1 statistical year arguably (key word: arguably) better than any of Reggies? I'd never build around any of those guys... none of them were a player you'd "build a team around", whereas Reggie was most certainly the player that Indy built around. He's in a different category than all of those players... it's not even a contest. Once a player is determined to be a true cornerstone of a franchise, capable of withstanding the pressure of anchoring a team for over a decade deep into the playoffs every year, they enter a whole new level. Can you seriously say Glen Rice, Mitch Richmond, SPREWELL, of all people, could legitimately anchor a decade of deep playoff runs? None of those guys are in the Hall and they all retired before Reggie. Their peaks hardly equalled Reggie's best "scoring" years, which arguably weren't even his best overall years, and none of them lasted as long. I don't even know how this is equatable. Stating I'm biased because I'm a Pacer fan is hardly an argument, I watch these games, lol... I know the good players in this league. Statistically, Granger blows Reggie out of the water in a lot of categories, and would I state that he's anywhere close to Reggie's ability? Hell.... no.

    None of those guys were ever "routinely" better than Reggie... ever. A few had a season here and there where they averaged more points, but not a single one ever lifted their teams into deep playoff runs on his shoulders alone, elevated his game by 5+ ppg and performed as excellent as Reggie in the playoffs --- ever. This is just a silly argument.

    It's like you have a blinder or bias to Reggie's true value. There are large stretches of games in the playoffs and regular season where it was obvious Reggie was the best player on the floor, for either team, including those guys you mentioned. Just because those guys had 1 season where they mighta topped Reggie in ppg doesn't make them a better overall player. As an example, would I place his 1990 season above his 1998 season, even though he averaged 6 ppg more? I wouldn't. It's not about ppg.

    Reggie is firmly in that Malone/Stockton/Barkley/Ewing realm of players.... tremendous cornerstone players who had they not peaked during the Jordan years, would have each equally had a chance to win a ring. Glen Rice? Sprewell? What? To even mention the train-wreck that was Sprewell in the same sentence as Reggie is an insult.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 09-11-2012 at 03:45 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    I agree with you Kid. There are players who put up great stats, then there are great players. Usually great players put up great stats, but often good players also put up great stats. That is why I mostly ignore direct statistical comparisons when comparing players. A player like Reggie putting up 18ppg can dominate the game, while a player like Carter can put up 21ppg, and is just another player on the floor who just happens to put up a lot of points.

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    Default Re: Where does Reggie Miller rank in your opinion on the all time shooting guard list?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Uhhhh no. Mitch and Glen, both fine players, never carried a team, accomplished anything remotely close to Reggie in the playoffs, did not sustain as long, and neither is in the Hall. The most defining event to me was Reggie's last game, where the opposing coach called a timeout to give a player a standing ovation. You just don't see that, ever. He was massively respected by his peers in the league, moreso than it would appear by fans. I'll go with the opinion of his peers over dissenters on a messageboard. Reggie in Hall --- Mitch and Glen not. 'Nuff said.

    One season does not a HoF'er make. If that was the case, jermaine O'Neal is a shoo in, since he arguably had one season that was debatably better than any of Reggie's, statistically. Throw Granger in there, too, since he had a higher statistical "peak".

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    Anyone who compares Reggie's regular season performance to any other SG is totally missing what made him a HOFer. The thing that set Reggie apart was his ability to come up big in the playoffs. Reggie averaged 21.1 ppg in the playoffs. Before his role deminished during his last 3 seasons, his average was a gaudy 24 ppg - nearly 5 points more than what he averaged during the regular season!

    Mitch Richmond never made any noise in the playoffs or in the clutch. A lot of that is due to his poor level of talent around him but his play during the playoffs never matched his during the season production.

    Tracy McGrady was one of the best regular season SGs of all-time. He couldn't get his teams, even with a 3-1 lead with Orlando or an in his prime Yao Ming and Steve Francis, to the 2nd round.

    Glenn Rice was a great scorer for about 2-3 years. Ultimately he fizzled out due to injuries even though he was a very good player that torched the Pacers a few times during the 2000 Finals.

    Reggie was clutch. All of the NBA greats agree. That's what made him famous, hence he is in the Hall of Fame.

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