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Thread: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

  1. #2801
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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    For those calling for the axe on Crean, who is IU reasonably going to get that's a clear upgrade?

    IU still had a very strong year to be proud of. No, maybe they should've made more noise in the tournament, but it's March Madness for a reason.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    Hey UCLA, Crean is available. Court him, please. For the love of god get him out of here. What a ****ing ******.
    Please go with him. The man takes over a job nobody wants and wins 29 GAMES this year and this is the crap he gets?

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    For those calling for the axe on Crean, who is IU reasonably going to get that's a clear upgrade?

    IU still had a very strong year to be proud of. No, maybe they should've made more noise in the tournament, but it's March Madness for a reason.
    Crean is safe... for a while. He has a LOT of positives going for him. He is not a good 'game' coach, but he seems to be an excellent 'coach' as far as many of the other things you want from a coach (recruiting, getting players to class, getting players to play hard, loyal to the program, etc.). He's respectful to the history of the program and to the fans and university.

    When Crean first arrived on the scene and the full ramifications of what he was inheriting became clear, I knew it would be a long haul. But I also noticed something else as time went on, never did I really get the feeling that he was really maxing out the players he did have. In the first couple years I kept expecting to see him outcoach somebody, catch someone taking IU lightly and make them pay, and generally really just get some players to overachieve and beat a few teams they shouldn't or really scare them anyway. That just wasn't there.

    Then as the quality of players increased IU would out-talent teams but I still didn't see them really steal one. Last year's KY game might be the exception. But even that game there were things going wrong that ultimately were forgotten with with a CWatford 3 ball.

    I just don't think there's a solid X/O base going on. The team is always going to overwhelm some teams early in the season... cupcakes and better teams just not yet ready for the season and a system like IU will bring. But as the season goes on, teams will be better prepared and IU's speed won't catch them offguard as much. Scouting will be better and the little 'advantages' IU has will be negated (how many times early in the season did IU score points with Zeller out ahead of the pack in transition and then compare how those became fewer and fewer as teams figured it out). And as the games get bigger and season wears on, opposing players on the better teams are much better mentally prepared for a variety of styles (because they've practiced... and PLAYED against so many good teams), the stakes will get higher and IU will more times than not have a coaching deficit heading into a during games.

    Just like these tournament games showed, IU can be taken out of what they want to do. The system can be shut down. And IU in the half court stunk all season. The only way IU goes deep in the tournament is if the team is just STOCKED from top to bottom and they physically can't be taken out of what they want to do. If any coach could recruit that type of team it's Crean though. I just don't know that that is possible these days.

    There's a lot of fans caught up in the rah-rah, the move up thru the rankings these past two years and the cellar IU has come from. But, can that last if IU doesn't take that next step? How long before even the casual fans start questioning Crean? I think there are some hardcore people already questioning him and they have legitimate questions. How long will the honeymoon last? Or will 20+ win seasons, high rankings, and NCAA appearances... even with a steady diet of being upset... be enough?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren35 View Post
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    Crean clearly is in over is head. I was really surprised he said (at half time) they "had figured out the zone". Sure you did TC.
    Calipari was clearly in over his head against Robert Morris.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    A "steady diet of being upset"? What?

    IU lost to tue #1 overall seed last year in the tourney. That is not an upset. They lost to Syracuse this year, an upset if you went by seeding only.

    Your entire argument about Crean Bball is based on future hypotheticals.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Syracuse is a very, very good team, one that is probably under seeded because of Southerland's missing games.

    IU is also a very, very good team, one that is maybe a little over seeded.

    Tonight I felt like I was watching two #2 seeds go head to head and IU got out talented and also out coached. This was not just on Crean, just as he was not fully innocent.

    Some nights IU was the best team in the country, some nights they definitely were not, part of that was coaching, but part of it much as it may be harder to admit, was talent.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierguy View Post
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    A "steady diet of being upset"? What?

    IU lost to tue #1 overall seed last year in the tourney. That is not an upset. They lost to Syracuse this year, an upset if you went by seeding only.

    Your entire argument about Crean Bball is based on future hypotheticals.
    When I said 'upset' I was thinking about the B10 tournament too... and I suppose you can consider the Wisconsins of the world in there too. And Butler. But EVERYONE gets upset sometimes. It happens. But I'm predicting it'll happen a little more to Crean and IU because he will not be able to get them over the proverbial hump and past those battle tested teams with their better coaching and better preparation.

    It's one of those things I have little doubt about in my prediction. I'm just curious how long it will take for the Hoosier Nation as a whole to figure that out and if that will be good enough long term?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Bball you may very well be right, but I need to get fully away from what is still a pretty meteoric rise to really know.

    This team never really had the talent to be preseason number 1. Frankly a team going from losing in the sweet 16 to preseason number 1 is pretty unheard of.

    IU should be more reasonably ranked to start next season and that will allwo me IMO a better judge of what we really did or did not accomplish. These past two years have been such a whirlwind. The fact that we went from 11-21 or whatever to 29-7 and outright big ten champs in 2 seasons is still completely unbelievable IMO and it's impossible for me not to be affected by that right now. Let's regroup next March IMO and that will be a very good time to get a feel for Crean. For example does Crean get no credit for winning on the road at Mich and Mich St and Ohio St? Those are all pretty solid accomplishments. Sometimes it is best to look at the bigger picture and unfortunately we still just don't have a whole plate of info.

    My belief in Crean certainly isn't 100%, and I don't think he is the best coach in the country or anything like that, but he checks a lot of the needed boxes, and I'm not sure he's such a terrible in game coach that he automaticlaly prohibits you from advancing far in the tourney.

    Next year will be a telling year in a lot of ways. Both for in game adjustments, ability for the team to meet hopefully more reasonable expecations, and also in terms of how players develop (Yogi, Hollowell and Perea at the top of that list)

    I'm ready for 2013-2014 and that fact that it is so far away is what sucks the most about tonight.

    I'm not expecting a national title team in anyway next year, but if Cody is back, Yogi improves, Sheehey is around, and Vonleh can be legit, you could still have a really good team and a final four type matchup against UK could be lurking in the shadows, but again next year I am expecting a sweet 16 type team with the chance to advance further depending on tourney matchups and I think that in the end that was basically the talent of this year's team too.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    I just think Crean is totally a system coach. He just lacks an additional gear to coach or teach what to do when the system isn't working. It's overdrive or nothing. There's no 4WD for when the going gets rocky. But maybe that system really is unbeatable with more depth, taller guards, and a more physical presence inside.

    Hulls IMHO was ultimately a liability. Seemed like a great kid but his defense wasn't what IU needed at that guard spot for the game Crean wants. And it just seemed like some teams really could shut him down from the 3pt line to the point he wasn't hardly even a threat to actually shoot. And IU had nothing designed to change that when it happened.

    The system is going to win its share of games so that explains the wins you noted this season. But the system will need more depth, and some players more appropriate for the system if that is mainly all the team is going to rely on to get past these roadblocks like tonight. I don't see Crean ever saying (or thinking) "They're going to want to grind it out so we'll show them what grinding it out looks like and run a half court offensive clinic on them.... Here's their weaknesses. Then we'll wear them down and run them out of the gym"

    I hate to use Bob Knight as an example but look at '87 and IU vs UNLV. Bob decided the best way to beat UNLV was to beat them at their own game and actually look to ring the scoreboard up. They played smart and poured on the scoring in that game and UNLV didn't know what hit them.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    If you are Cody Zeller, don't you have to watch last night's tape and think "Ok, I've lost enough money already, I'm out of here."

    He looked like Te'o against Alabama. Every team in the league has 4 guys who are as big, strong, and tough as any of those dudes he got physically manhandled by last night. He needs to try to cash in, now.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Bball the size of the guards was a major weakness all season, unfortunately Cuse is one of the few teams that can pick on it. They were a terrible, terrible matchup for us.

    As far as your Knight vs. UNLV story, isn't this what Crean tried to do in both games vs. UK last season? And it worked once and almost worked a second time.

    Look Crean is not perfect, but the guy is not the only reason IU lost last night. I don't know if it hurts some of you to really examine on the talent on this team or what, but the fact is, IU needed Oladipo and Zeller to play like stars to win every single big game this year, if one of them had an off night in any way IU was really vulnerable. We aren't as deep as even a team like Syracuse.

    Hulls is a problem to cover up on D.

    Yogi for all of his cool momments, is still very much a freshman.

    Sheehey has a lot of flaws still.

    Watford was OK, but there are issues with his ability to create off the bounce. I mean look at what a guy like CJ fair was able to do compared to Watford.....And I love Christian as a player and recognize everything he's done for IUBB but still.

    The talent just wasn't really there. Cuse was every bit as talented as us, and arguably more talented.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-29-2013 at 08:22 AM.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Honestly, we could talk til we're blue in the face about what went wrong, but I do want to focus on a lot of the right this season.

    29 wins
    Outright Big Ten title (first in 20 years)
    Wins on the road over Ohio St, Mich St, Mich.
    #1 ranking for what, 10 weeks?
    #1 seed
    There is a top 5 recruiting class on the way, including a guy that has gotten compared to Kevin Durant.

    And finally, perhaps most importantly, no one in their right mind 4 years ago would have thought we'd even be in the situation we were in last night. So all things considered, I can't stay too mad. And I hope that Crean can learn from his mistakes this year in the same way some of the young players do. No one on this team had really worn a target like this for an entire season. Why do we fall?

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by PR07 View Post
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    For those calling for the axe on Crean, who is IU reasonably going to get that's a clear upgrade?

    IU still had a very strong year to be proud of. No, maybe they should've made more noise in the tournament, but it's March Madness for a reason.
    Brad Stevens. Obviously, they're not going to fire Crean yet but I have hard time believing Brad would pass up a huge pay raise to go 60 some odd miles down the road to Bloomington.
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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    If you are Cody Zeller, don't you have to watch last night's tape and think "Ok, I've lost enough money already, I'm out of here."

    He looked like Te'o against Alabama. Every team in the league has 4 guys who are as big, strong, and tough as any of those dudes he got physically manhandled by last night. He needs to try to cash in, now.
    I don't think he lost any money last night. I think he and Teo were overhyped in draft status. I watch path to the draft on NFL network from time to time and most of their experts had him as a 2nd rd during the season and still have him as a 2nd rder. It was the media who hyped him as a top 10 pick. I think Cody is the same way the media ESPN and draft sites had him as the top guy. He was the star player for the preseason #1 and people knew who he was so they had him super high. While NBA scouts and what not have not viewed him that way. I think he ends up getting drafted where he should and where he has been on NBA peoples boards lottery to mid 1st.

    This is JMO and maybe scouts did have him as a top 3 pick but I highly doubt that. If he was a top 3 pick in the draft I would be trading that pick in a hurry even if the best package I could get is a healthy Danny Granger level player I would do it. Zeller will be a decent pro in the high post but he is way to limited even in a weak top of the draft to be a top 3 pick.

    I mean at the start of the season Marcus Smart was listed as a mid 1st rd to late 1st rd guy. After the 3rd game I watched him play, I moved him into a top 10 pick. Looking at where these guys are listed early in the season is a mistake.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    I don't think he lost any money last night. I think he and Teo were overhyped in draft status. I watch path to the draft on NFL network from time to time and most of their experts had him as a 2nd rd during the season and still have him as a 2nd rder. It was the media who hyped him as a top 10 pick. I think Cody is the same way the media ESPN and draft sites had him as the top guy. He was the star player for the preseason #1 and people knew who he was so they had him super high. While NBA scouts and what not have not viewed him that way. I think he ends up getting drafted where he should and where he has been on NBA peoples boards lottery to mid 1st.

    This is JMO and maybe scouts did have him as a top 3 pick but I highly doubt that. If he was a top 3 pick in the draft I would be trading that pick in a hurry even if the best package I could get is a healthy Danny Granger level player I would do it. Zeller will be a decent pro in the high post but he is way to limited even in a weak top of the draft to be a top 3 pick.

    I mean at the start of the season Marcus Smart was listed as a mid 1st rd to late 1st rd guy. After the 3rd game I watched him play, I moved him into a top 10 pick. Looking at where these guys are listed early in the season is a mistake.
    I meant he lost money already by staying for another season, this year. He would have been a higher pick last year, than he will be this year.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Fred Glass probably extended Crean's contract to 2030 after the game last night.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Darren35 View Post
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    Crean clearly is in over is head. I was really surprised he said (at half time) they "had figured out the zone". Sure you did TC.
    And Cal will look like a clown if he doesn't win the title next year.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Also, after all the reactions it's good to see IU fans haven't changed when we have a good team. Still national title or bust.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Also, after all the reactions it's good to see IU fans haven't changed when we have a good team. Still national title or bust.
    I don't think it's national title or bust. But I also don't think there is any way to say the preseason (and majority of the regular season) favorite bowing out with an abysmal Sweet Sixteen performance doesn't make for a disappointing season.
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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    I don't think it's national title or bust. But I also don't think there is any way to say the preseason (and majority of the regular season) favorite bowing out with an abysmal Sweet Sixteen performance doesn't make for a disappointing season.
    Twitter is basically national title or bust.


    I just think no one is wanting to acknowledge that we were overrated at the start of the year.

    The "it's entirely Crean's fault" angle is ignoring a lot of other things that went horribly awry last night and over the past 6 or 7 weeks. Pretty sure Crean didn't magically turn Hulls into a 24% 3 point shooter. Pretty sure he didn't cause Yogi to pee his pants like a true freshman point guard last night.

    All I could keep thinking about as Yogi continually screwed things up is the "I chose America" Pepsi commercial where they are filling out their bracket and talking about the freshman point guard that will cost his team....Our starting backcourt got outscored 38-0 last night, frankly it might be a minor coaching miracle we only lost by 11.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierguy View Post
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    A "steady diet of being upset"? What?

    IU lost to tue #1 overall seed last year in the tourney. That is not an upset. They lost to Syracuse this year, an upset if you went by seeding only.

    Your entire argument about Crean Bball is based on future hypotheticals.
    Most people knew that Syracuse was going to give us a tough game, but it's the way they completely manhandled us that is the problem. Had they beat us by just a couple points in a tightly contested game, then it would be completely different. That is one of the most embarrassing defeats I've ever seen from a team I've followed. I don't think I've felt so bad about a team's effort since the Colts put up three points in Foxboro in that playoff game. Lack of hustle, lack of effort, lack of toughness, lack of coaching, lack of everything. We were never in that game.

    Last year's team gave a great effort against Kentucky and maxed out it's opportunity. You could be content knowing they got as far as they could. But getting knocked in the Sweet 16 this season is a complete failure after being ranked number 1 for such a large portion of the year. At the very least, we should have gotten to the Elite 8. Who knows if Crean will ever have a team this talented again? It needs to be said that he has never made it past the Sweet 16 without Dwyane Wade.

    Last night confirmed what I thought about Zeller all year, which is that he is not ready to be a contributor to an NBA team. He just wilts against physical teams that smack him around.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Also, after all the reactions it's good to see IU fans haven't changed when we have a good team. Still national title or bust.

    I agree that it's good the fanbase has high expectations. The uncomfortable truth is that we live off of past glory more than any team in college basketball. As far as tournament success is concerned, we haven't been an elite program in a long long time. Since 1993, we have made just the Elite 8 just one time, which was 2002 when we went to the championship game. Think about that - one Elite 8 in 20 seasons. That's pretty saddening. Other programs have passed us by over the last two decades.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Who knows if Crean will ever have a roster with this much talent again?

    Next year's team will have MORE raw talent than this year's team, I mean good Lord guys, I love this team, but our starting backcourt were both 5'11" ish and one of them was a complete and utter liability when his jumper wasn't falling which was pretty much the case for the last six weeks.

    Our third best player, Watford, who I also really enjoy, has self professed effort issues, he said it in his senior night speech for crying out loud!

    This team was billed at the start of the year by the media as "the team that wasn't missing anything" and that was just completely untrue to put it lightly. We never had a consistent backup for Cody or Watford. Oladipo while great for a lot of the season, showed a lot of his flaws also over the past month or so, including the fact that he still takes way too many risks with the ball. This just wasn't a perfect team.

    I love this roster. I appreciate what they did for IU, but we need to take about 10 steps back and realize that the talent wasn't all here yet.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I agree that it's good the fanbase has high expectations. The uncomfortable truth is that we live off of past glory more than any team in college basketball. As far as tournament success is concerned, we haven't been an elite program in a long long time. Since 1993, we have made just the Elite 8 just one time, which was 2002 when we went to the championship game. Think about that - one Elite 8 in 20 seasons. That's pretty saddening. Other programs have passed us by over the last two decades.
    We are still a top 10 job, and I think having high expectations is fine, but I think everyone needs to take a couple deep breaths. The world is not ending. Back to back sweet 16s while not ideal considering the start of the season is still incredible considering where we were just 4 years ago.

    Remember and this is important, when the Zeller class and the Ferrell class were being put together, they were never supposed to compete for a title right away. The Movement was supposed to maybe get us to the sweet 16 their freshman year, and yes Oladipo ended up being better than expected at that point in time and so did Zeller to an extent as a freshman, but there were also some pieces that didn't exactly pan out right away as expected. Remember most people thought that Perea and Holloweel would be immediate impact guys and they were not. So the talent level was just never that of a national title team. Zeller and Oladipo had to play nearly flawless in our big wins this year and to do that with just two players 6 times in the tournament is tough. You need 6-7 guys capable of having those kind of performances and we just didn't. Olaidpo and Zeller could. Watford could. But after that? Maybe Sheehey, but even he is still wildly inconsistent.

    Nothing is built or won in a day or without learning and growing, this was IU's first real year of being the hunted, I think it honestly wore us out. I don't think the players totally anticipated the change in going from being the underdog team that is overachieving to the team everyone wants to beat. Sure they talked like they did, but they learned there is more than just talking.

    There is stuff like actually throwing passes people can catch.

    I know we lost in the sweet 16, but we lost to a really good Syracuse team and that does lessen the blow for me. We lost to a final four caliber team. A team that could conceivably win the title and probably would be seeded much higher if Southerland hadn't been academically ineligible. No it's not ideal, but it's really not that surprising that a team of Cuse's talent level would beat us especially with their defense. Remember in mid January before Southerland had to sit for a while, they were a 1 seed, they beat Louisville at Louisville. They are not a crappy team. And we weren't quite as good as we thoguht. LIke I said I felt like I was watching two 2 seeds go out at it and Cuse just landed the first big upper cut and in those matchups that can be all the staggering you need. IU did make adjustmnets in the second half and actually played much better especially on D. In the second half we only gave up 27 points. Defense is not an end of the court Crean gets much credit for but I think he did a great job making us better on that end of the court this year.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 03-29-2013 at 10:38 AM.

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    Default Re: Indiana University Athletics Thread 2012-2013

    Quote Originally Posted by Mackey_Rose View Post
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    I meant he lost money already by staying for another season, this year. He would have been a higher pick last year, than he will be this year.
    I'm not sold on that. Last year the highest I would of drafted him was PHX at 13. That is where I had him on my board before I took him off. But that is just me scouts may see it very different than me. I think he gets drafted higher this year than last JMO.

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