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Thread: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

  1. #226
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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    He posted a link to the site with the efficiency numbers he is using:

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player...ager.offset=50
    Which shows there's less difference of efficiency between Danny and Roy than there is between #1 LeBron and #2 Kevin Love.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Which shows there's less difference of efficiency between Danny and Roy than there is between #1 LeBron and #2 Kevin Love.
    Well, yeah, kind of the same as my point about the difference between JJ/Danny and JJ/Monta, but you can't say he didn't show you where he got his numbers.
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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I would trade him even up for any of the players you mention. The fact that two of them have big contracts doesn't mean they are not better players. They certainly are. I would trade Granger for Ellis or Jennings in a heart beat. So, perhaps he is better than the mighty Pooh but it isn't clear....... ... So, in reality, just about every team has someone better than Granger on their roster and many of them have several player better than Granger...... ...
    Well, at least he has never had his head stuck in a honey jar. At least not that has been made public.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    Outside of LBJ, 'Melo Deron, and Rose, every player on that list could potentially be traded for with Granger as the main asset the Pacers would offer.
    I think he is talking about 1-for-1 trades (not considering salary matching), not trades that are Granger + whomever for another player.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Since86, the "efficiency" rating that vnzla81 posted has nothing to do with shooting efficiency.

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/efficiency.html

    It's a combo stat used by NBA.com, as opposed to the PER used by Hollinger/ESPN. The 2 stats have a similar concept actually, but use slightly different formulas. As a result, they share a lot of the same weaknesses.

    Btw, if you compare last season's PER, Danny actually had a better season that Monta or JJ, which goes back to BillS's point that the statistical difference among them is quite small - small enough that a change in formula changes the rankings.

    And oh, Troy Murphy used to post out of this world EFF numbers. Just sayin'
    Last edited by wintermute; 08-28-2012 at 12:20 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Yea, all stats aside, just observing all those players, there is no way I'd label JJ or Monta as "clearly" better than Granger, if at all. I'd say "marginal" is accurate. I might say JJ 2-3 years ago was a more polished offensive player than Danny, but now it's pretty much a wash. JJ is 31 now and slowing down. Monta has some impressive offensive skills, but has a lot of holes in his game, too. Glaring ones. Danny is the better defender, of those three, anyway.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 08-28-2012 at 12:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    VNZLA - I would like to challenge you to go to other message boards and ask people if they think Danny, Monta, JJ, and Josh Smith are on the same level or not... And please post links to your results... I think you would find this is base NBA knowledge... Not just seen through blue and gold colored lenses...

    And I know this holds very little weight but check their 2K ratings... They are all absolutely on the same level... Annual fringe all-stars... They are all jockeying for the final slots on All-star teams...
    Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?



    "Irrationality and deception. Powerful agents... to the uninitiated. But we are initiated, aren't we?" - PacerfanBane

    This is approximately the 3,536,226,236th time I've seen the "I'll prove my bias is the truth by picking and choosing my statistics" method to 'win an argument' in my time here.

    I'm not falling for it.

    If I'm expected to weigh in, just put me down for "We ought to appreciate Danny Granger if for nothing else than from the perspective of who he is/was at a time when we needed someone like him to be the face of this franchise."

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  12. #234
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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    The supreme irony in all of this is that if it weren't for the blatant anti Granger fans on here nobody on this board would be calling Danny Granger a great player.

    That's what's always killed me whenever we discuss this topic. The anti Granger fans are so anti Granger that they cause people to defend Granger at a level higher than they actually think of him.

    I'm one of the bigger Granger supporters on here & even I would not tell you that the guy is anything more than a very good and talented basketball player. He is not super star player (if by super star you mean LeBron, Bryant, etc.) he would not even be in that second group of star players (Mello, Paul, D. Williams, etc.)

    I guess where the great disagreement comes from is that I do think that he falls into the third level of player but I'm willing to say he is at or around the bottom of those players. So yes I do think he is lumped into the group with Gay, Iggy, JJ, etc.

    Now it is pretty well known around here that I don't always take the Pacers side of things. I think I made myself pretty clear over the years about Jim O'Brien & Jermaine O'Neal and I'm not even as thrilled with David West as some of you are (I don't dislike him at all but I do hate his defense) so when I say that I don't think Granger is a bad player or that I don't think he is worse than JJ, Gay, Iggy, Deng, etc. does that make me a homer who only sees things through blue & gold glasses?


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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    The supreme irony in all of this is that if it weren't for the blatant anti Granger fans on here nobody on this board would be calling Danny Granger a great player.

    That's what's always killed me whenever we discuss this topic. The anti Granger fans are so anti Granger that they cause people to defend Granger at a level higher than they actually think of him.

    I'm one of the bigger Granger supporters on here & even I would not tell you that the guy is anything more than a very good and talented basketball player. He is not super star player (if by super star you mean LeBron, Bryant, etc.) he would not even be in that second group of star players (Mello, Paul, D. Williams, etc.)

    I guess where the great disagreement comes from is that I do think that he falls into the third level of player but I'm willing to say he is at or around the bottom of those players. So yes I do think he is lumped into the group with Gay, Iggy, JJ, etc.

    Now it is pretty well known around here that I don't always take the Pacers side of things. I think I made myself pretty clear over the years about Jim O'Brien & Jermaine O'Neal and I'm not even as thrilled with David West as some of you are (I don't dislike him at all but I do hate his defense) so when I say that I don't think Granger is a bad player or that I don't think he is worse than JJ, Gay, Iggy, Deng, etc. does that make me a homer who only sees things through blue & gold glasses?
    And because somebody says that Danny is not as good as JJ,JS or Monta doesn't mean that person think he is garbage either.

    If I remember correctly some people here thought he was(is) as good as Reggie at the same age if that's not overrating him I don't know what to tell you.

    To me Danny is falling into the same place guys like Richard Jefferson and Rashard Lewis has fallen, previous all stars that have lost an step and people still believe they can play at the same level they once did.


    By the way this is not the first time somebody overrates Danny or you forgot the Danny/Melo thread were people thought they were in the same level lol.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 08-28-2012 at 01:33 PM.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    And because somebody says that Danny is not as good as JJ,JS or Monta doesn't mean that person think he is garbage either.

    If I remember correctly some people here thought he was(is) as good as Reggie at the same age if that's not overrating him I don't know what to tell you.

    To me Danny is falling into the same place guys like Richard Jefferson and Rashard Lewis has fallen, previous all stars that have lost an step and people still believe they can play at the same level they once did.
    Is it possible that Danny has lost a step? Sure

    Is it also possible that Danny took a step back to allow the rest of the team to move forward?

    Now let's see how you answer that.

    Also yes I am the one who compared him to Reggie and I still stand by that. During the regular season they are remarkably similar, I just thought Danny would be able to pick it up during the playoffs and he didn't. Now he did last season vs. the Bulls even you have admitted that in the past.

    But yes I do consider his servies vs. the Magic a dissapointment and I don't think anyone will fault him for not excelling vs. LeBron James.


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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    To me Danny is falling into the same place guys like Richard Jefferson and Rashard Lewis has fallen, previous all stars that have lost an step and people still believe they can play at the same level they once did.
    Richard Jefferson and Rashard Lewis were never the leaders of their respected teams. Danny was/is.
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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Is it possible that Danny has lost a step? Sure

    Is it also possible that Danny took a step back to allow the rest of the team to move forward?

    Now let's see how you answer that.

    Also yes I am the one who compared him to Reggie and I still stand by that. During the regular season they are remarkably similar, I just thought Danny would be able to pick it up during the playoffs and he didn't. Now he did last season vs. the Bulls even you have admitted that in the past.

    But yes I do consider his servies vs. the Magic a dissapointment and I don't think anyone will fault him for not excelling vs. LeBron James.
    I think he lost an step and I don't believe "he is taking one for the team" as many believe here, last years team was the best team he ever had around and instead of getting better he got worse, like I said before if it wasn't because of his great last month his numbers would have been even worse, before that he was on the bottom in the NBA.

    And yes I agree with you about his play against Orlando and I expected him to at least be decent against Lebron but he was not even close to decent(I know some people are going to come up with some numbers but I watched the games and he wasn't great), to be the great player many say he is he was a disappointment all year last year but one month, why are people ignoring that?

    Danny is a good player but I'm pretty sure that if he didn't have the Pacers uniform on many here would think he is garbage, I understand we are in a Pacers side so of course some people are going to see it through the blue and gold glasses and are going to disagree with me not matter what, my point is that many here overrate Danny the same way people overrated Dunleavy and the same way people overrated DC.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Richard Jefferson and Rashard Lewis were never the leaders of their respected teams. Danny was/is.
    I'm talking about the game of Basketball and their abilities I don't give a damn about their leadership abilities.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm talking about the game of Basketball and their abilities I don't give a damn about their leadership abilities.
    And if you think that Danny's ability is equal to Rashard Lewis, then you don't know damn about Rashard Lewis.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I'm talking about the game of Basketball and their abilities I don't give a damn about their leadership abilities.
    Yea, you wouldn't give a damn about leadership abilities, lol...

    Hint: basketball abilities *include* leadership. Not just putting a f'n basketball through a hoop.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I know some people are going to come up with some numbers but I watched the games and he wasn't great
    And this is where people get frustrated with your arguments. You use numbers unless the numbers disagree with your conclusions, in which case you throw the numbers out and say "well, I watched the games and I disagree". You need to really define which numbers are valid and which ones aren't rather than define the situations in which the numbers match your conclusion and the situations in which they do not.
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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    And if you think that Danny's ability is equal to Rashard Lewis, then you don't know damn about Rashard Lewis.
    Not to the Rashard Lewis of today but the the Rashard Lewis of years ago? hell yes.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Not to the Rashard Lewis of today but the the Rashard Lewis of years ago? hell yes.
    Oh...well. Maybe. I don't disagree enough to garner the dialogue of stating why I disagree.

    So Carry-on.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    And this is where people get frustrated with your arguments. You use numbers unless the numbers disagree with your conclusions, in which case you throw the numbers out and say "well, I watched the games and I disagree". You need to really define which numbers are valid and which ones aren't rather than define the situations in which the numbers match your conclusion and the situations in which they do not.
    I used numbers but as I told you I didn't say they were the tool and regarding those comments I expect somebody to tell me that Danny wasn't that bad because he averaged X amount of numbers and that those numbers were just as good as Reggie's in his second time of the playoffs or something like that.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    [

    "Irrationality and deception. Powerful agents... to the uninitiated. But we are initiated, aren't we?" - PacerfanBane

    This is approximately the 3,536,226,236th time I've seen the "I'll prove my bias is the truth by picking and choosing my statistics" method to 'win an argument' in my time here.

    I'm not falling for it.

    If I'm expected to weigh in, just put me down for "We ought to appreciate Danny Granger if for nothing else than from the perspective of who he is/was at a time when we needed someone like him to be the face of this franchise."
    I thanked you for the first part of your post, but I hope your not implying that if we don't like Danny's game we don't appreciate who he is/was. He's been a good soldier, I just don't like the way he plays sometimes. I do appreciate him for what he's done for the organization, though.

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  28. #247

    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by wintermute View Post
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    Since86, the "efficiency" rating that vnzla81 posted has nothing to do with shooting efficiency.

    http://www.nba.com/statistics/efficiency.html

    It's a combo stat used by NBA.com, as opposed to the PER used by Hollinger/ESPN. The 2 stats have a similar concept actually, but use slightly different formulas. As a result, they share a lot of the same weaknesses.

    Btw, if you compare last season's PER, Danny actually had a better season that Monta or JJ, which goes back to BillS's point that the statistical difference among them is quite small - small enough that a change in formula changes the rankings.

    And oh, Troy Murphy used to post out of this world EFF numbers. Just sayin'
    This is why PER's so silly to me. It rates Danny higher than JJ after one of JJ's best seasons and arguably Danny's worst. IMO it overrates the heck out of Danny and always has.

    Then it doesn't even have Rondo ranked in the top 20 amongst PGs which is mind numbing...

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  30. #248
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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Because Rondo's game is not stat-based. PER is completely stat based. PER doesn't measure a player's ability to set up other players and execute an offense and impact defense. It only measures tangible quantifiable stats.


    • TS%: True Shooting Percentage - what a player's shooting percentage would be if we accounted for free throws and 3-pointers. True Shooting Percentage = Total points / [(FGA + (0.44 x FTA)]
    • AST: Assist Ratio - the percentage of a player's possessions that ends in an assist. Assist Ratio = (Assists x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
    • TO: Turnover Ratio - the percentage of a player's possessions that end in a turnover. Turnover Ratio = (Turnover x 100) divided by [(FGA + (FTA x 0.44) + Assists + Turnovers]
    • USG: Usage Rate - the number of possessions a player uses per 40 minutes. Usage Rate = {[FGA + (FT Att. x 0.44) + (Ast x 0.33) + TO] x 40 x League Pace} divided by (Minutes x Team Pace)
    • ORR: Offensive rebound rate
    • DRR: Defensive rebound rate
    • REBR: Rebound Rate - the percentage of missed shots that a player rebounds. Rebound Rate = (100 x (Rebounds x Team Minutes)) divided by [Player Minutes x (Team Rebounds + Opponent Rebounds)]
    • PER: Player Efficiency Rating is the overall rating of a player's per-minute statistical production. The league average is 15.00 every season.
    • VA: Value Added - the estimated number of points a player adds to a team’s season total above what a 'replacement player' (for instance, the 12th man on the roster) would produce. Value Added = ([Minutes * (PER - PRL)] / 67). PRL (Position Replacement Level) = 11.5 for power forwards, 11.0 for point guards, 10.6 for centers, 10.5 for shooting guards and small forwards
    • EWA: Estimated Wins Added - Value Added divided by 30, giving the estimated number of wins a player adds to a team’s season total above what a 'replacement player' would produce.
    • Player Efficiency Rating (PER) League average: 15.0
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by CJ Jones View Post
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    This is why PER's so silly to me. It rates Danny higher than JJ after one of JJ's best seasons and arguably Danny's worst. IMO it overrates the heck out of Danny and always has.

    Then it doesn't even have Rondo ranked in the top 20 amongst PGs which is mind numbing...
    Huh? How in the world can a stat overrate one particular player?

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    Default Re: Pacers looking to trade Danny?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    And this is where people get frustrated with your arguments. You use numbers unless the numbers disagree with your conclusions, in which case you throw the numbers out and say "well, I watched the games and I disagree". You need to really define which numbers are valid and which ones aren't rather than define the situations in which the numbers match your conclusion and the situations in which they do not.
    The other point to be made about disregarding non-supporting stats and going with the "well, I watched the games and I disagree" argument is that it discounts the fact that "all of us watched the games, too" and we still come up with honest differences from Vlnza's point of view.

    Does Vlnza believe that his abilities to break down players and teams are superior to the abilities of all of the rest of us? Some of us, maybe... all of us, no way.

    The deal is that one's POV in breaking down a player and putting a value on the what that player brings to the table differs greatly because we all have different preferences in how we like to see the game played, what we believe should be provided to the team from each position on the floor and so forth. Some of us, including myself, put far more emphasis on the synergy of the five players on the floor at one time than on the accomplishments of any one player.

    That likely means that some of us 'honestly' value so players more than others on this forum do because of our differing beliefs. However, when I experience someone who tends to take the negative aspects of any one player to extremes, I think it is reasonable to conclude that the individual simply hates the player much more than they dislike how the player plays the game.

    As an example, those that have followed my posting through the years could reasonable conclude that I had/have an intense dislike of Jalen Rose and Jamaal Tinsley. And no matter what positives either could bring to the court, that dislike for them could certainly cloud my perspective.

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