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Thread: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

  1. #176

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    No, that's not what I'm saying.

    I'm saying a lot of highly-touted QBs never live up to their potential because they spend their first four seasons on their back, looking at the clouds and a linebackers shoulder pads at best or even worse suffer the types of injuries that tear away at their potential and bring them back to "average".

    And some of those GMs that build a solid foundation of offensive and defensive line play never get a chance to draft a QB that high because an average QB keeps them in playoff contention.
    I don't disagree with you, because I feel there are QBs out there (like David Carr) who could have been better if they weren't absorbing so many sacks. But I say that's a risk living with, because you're more likely to end up succeeding once you find a good QB. Competent organizations will find good protection for him allow the QB to succeed. But you can't just wait to get a QB once you shore up your line, because you don't know when that is going to happen, and you don't know when you're going to get a good QB.

    But as you said, QB doesn't matter to you as much. Which is fine, I understand some teams like their defense and run game more than they do QB. But the Steelers line sucks. You know that. But you still have a competent QB. He's been battered and bruised and they can't fix their line (though Decastro was a great pickup).
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Also J, what's really the difference between the Steelers drafting Ben with their first round pick (11th pick) and the Colts drafting Luck with theirs (1st pick)? Not much, IMHO. You only get one first round draft pick, and it's your most important pick of the draft, whether it's the first pick or the 32nd. The 11th pick is a pretty high pick, which is what the Steelers had in 04. ChiJ, even your Steelers have gone into a draft after a bad season (6-10 in 2003) with the idea that QB was the team's most important need in the draft.

    There's really not much difference between what the Steelers did in 2004 and what the Colts did in 2012. Both came off of bad seasons and felt that QB was the most important need. The Steelers went 10-5 in 02, 6-10 in 03 (after which they got Ben), and then 15-1 in 04, so Ben was definitely put into a better situation. But I still think that the mindset was the same entering the draft.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-28-2012 at 08:46 PM.

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  4. #178
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Posting from iPhone, could get messy, sorry. Responding to several things at once.

    A I have no idea how many points either team scored last season. 13 was the opponents PPG from our last Super Bowl trip. #1 in points allowed, total yards allowed, rushing yards allowed and opposing QB rating (but not passing yards allowed- missed out on the quadruple play). And yes, even with that Aaron Rogers (the best QB right now was a top-five pick, right? Never mind...) had his way with us in the biggest game of the season.

    2011 will be known as the year that the Steelers neglect of the line reached rock bottom. You are absolutely right that this has been our Achilles heel. They started addressing it with Pouncy, then Gilbert, then DeCastro and Adams. If the last two progress as the first two have, that era of lousy line play will be over soon and should carry over deep into the career of Ben's replacement.

    And clearly, poor quality line play was a big factor last season. Your two quick DE's were a nightmare for our crappy line, and Ben made some awful decisions. And presto, the game that wasn't close on paper became competitive.

    QB wasn't our biggest "need" in 2004, and Ben was a strategic choice knowing that TommyGun wasn't a spring chicken. We needed a cornerback more. Ben did nothing to beat out TommyGun in the preseason, only took over because of injury, and merely managed the game and gave the ball to Bettis on his way to 15-1. He was badly overmatched by Brady in the playoffs. the 6-10 record the previous season (2003) is generally attributed to the mistake of giving the ball to TommyGun after the 13-3 season in 2002 (and taking the ball away from Bettis). The personnel was still built for the power run, and the infatuation with Maddox is one of the low spots in Cowher's career. Ben's inexperience led to a renewed reliance on The Bus and winning football returned.

    What else is up there?

    That's a huge difference, I think, between drafting Ben and Luck.

    I'll give you this: if the Steelers miss the playoffs in the next 3 seasons and get a top-15 pick, they'll take a QB to eventually replace Ben. Absolutely.

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  6. #179
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And clearly, poor quality line play was a big factor last season. Your two quick DE's were a nightmare for our crappy line, and Ben made some awful decisions.

    -snip-

    I'll give you this: if the Steelers miss the playoffs in the next 3 seasons and get a top-15 pick, they'll take a QB to eventually replace Ben. Absolutely.
    And if they miss the playoffs, it might be this season as the OL help isn't ready yet (DeCastro's injury, and Adams isn't ready for LT yet) and we may finish the season with either Leftwich or Batch as QB. It's a decent probability, at least.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by D-BONE View Post
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    Come on, J. Really? Your general argument makes sense (even if I don't buy it as the single,correct argument), but giving the Steelers D credit for holding the Painter-led Colts offense to 13 points. That's shameless.
    That wasn't my intention, but it reads wrong. 13 PPG was the Steelers average their last SB season. Sorry about the confusion.

    Also, to be clear, I'm not saying the alternative strategy I'm talking about is the only way, but it is a lower- risk alternative. Many of the bottom teams in the NFL stay there for a long time chasing that strategy (that the Colts are currently following) through multiple iterations.

  8. #181

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    That wasn't my intention, but it reads wrong. 13 PPG was the Steelers average their last SB season. Sorry about the confusion.

    Also, to be clear, I'm not saying the alternative strategy I'm talking about is the only way, but it is a lower- risk alternative. Many of the bottom teams in the NFL stay there for a long time chasing that strategy (that the Colts are currently following) through multiple iterations.
    I think your strategy changes depending on who is available and where you are in the draft, along with what pieces you already have. If you are picking 25th in the draft, you may not necessarily take a QB there and maybe shore up the line. But if you are picking #1, and you have a QB available that's so highly sought after, you are better off in the long run taking this QB rather than trading for picks (which might be a better strategy if there is no great QB available).
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    ChiJ, let me clarify that I *DO* hope that the Colts build their new team in a way that is similar to what you advocate. I want the new management to spend a lot of picks and money on the lines and defensive positions. If we don't sign beef up the lines with our cap space next year then I am going to be awfully disappointed. But I just don't think that drafting Luck with one single draft pick prevents us from doing the type of stuff that you endorse. If Luck is worth his salt, then we hopefully don't have to worry about the QB position for a long time and can invest money into the type of things that you think is important. These aren't mutually exclusive things. You can have a good QB that also has a good D like the Pats have for a decent chunk of the Brady years, or the Giants have with Eli. It's not easy to do, but I hope that's what we strive for.

    I hope Luck is the best QB he can be, but I also hope that it's not a repeat of the Manning years in the sense that I don't want a team that is over-reliant on offense. I want a more physical team this go around. It's hard to argue with the type of football that you advocate because it's succeeded time and time again. But I just don't think that us spending one pick on a QB, a position we clearly needed drastic help with, has to prevent us from doing any of that.

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  11. #183
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I was just saying the same thing to the other admins. Man, if I were to get kicked off a board I can't imagine that I'd ever want to go back to it for any reason. I'd move on. That's the way I'd live my life. And yet famously we've got a long history of people that try to sneak back in after they've pushed us far as we can take it.

    I just don't get it.
    Well.... let me tell you... It ain't that easy to just walk away.
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  12. #184
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    That wasn't my intention, but it reads wrong. 13 PPG was the Steelers average their last SB season. Sorry about the confusion.

    Also, to be clear, I'm not saying the alternative strategy I'm talking about is the only way, but it is a lower- risk alternative. Many of the bottom teams in the NFL stay there for a long time chasing that strategy (that the Colts are currently following) through multiple iterations.
    Ah! That makes sense. Thanks for the clarification.
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  13. #185

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I disagree.There are several that would start on the lines first and address the skills positions next. Football games are still won in the trenches.

    I wouldn't ever put a franchise QB behind a makeshift line. I'd fix the line first, and those are the "weapons" that Luck needs - not receivers. You need a very, very, very good QB. We agree on that. But a best-in-generation QB is not very valuable when he's on his back, or hearing footsteps, or on crutches, or has no one to hand the ball to, or barely has time to throw a quick-read pass.

    There is more than one way to do build a team and the high-risk, high-reward stuff can bring about high rewards some of the time. Who would have ever thought, even in the year 2000, that we'd see a Colts-Saints Super Bowl? Two franchises with decades of poor management desperate for one of their franchise QBs to pan out. We have no idea who the Super Bowl contenders will be three years out. Many of you would argue that it will be the team with the best QB. I think it will be the team with the best lines, as the best OL can make a very, very, very good QB look like a great QB and an average line can make a superstar QB look average.
    Ya I am not so certain most NFL FO's would start out on the lines. Geshh even the big Tuna admitted that he maybe should have taken Matt Ryan over Jake Long and Matt Ryan wasn't as hyped as Andrew Luck.

    Something that I think you are also missing here is that mediocre line can look great with a star QB just as much as average QB can look great with an above offensive line.

    This is what we saw with Peyton and he was one of the least hit Qb's in the league. The main point is that you don't ignore the problem and I caution you not to judge too soon on Grigson based on one draft and one FA signing period.

    Choosing a QB first then building a line is no more risker than building a line first then choosing a QB later. Both have won superbowls and the other factor in all of this is FA signings that just seems to get ignored here.

    I mean you don't start from nothing and likewise Grigson already had a decent LT and this team only gave up 35 sacks last season. They were middle of the road when you look at sacks and Qb hits so these few tweaks to the O-line aren't a end all be all of protecting your QB.

    Offensive play calling affects this and QB recognition of blitz packages also come into play. I mean you can have one of the least hit QB's in the NFL and still get him hurt like was the case of Ryan Fitzpatrick last year.

    Most importantly I don't think anyone is happy with the offensive line play and I don't think it will ruin Luck this year for two simple reasons. He is smarter than most Qb's drafted and he is just as dedicated at film study and protecting himself from getting hit. This isn't David Carr we are talking about and this isn't the Houston Texan porous line.

    I by no means think this is a great line but it has more talent and better personnel than the Texans did in 2002.

    The 2013 cap space will help Luck from getting ruined by terrible offensive line and I fully expect Grigson to draft some O-line men in 2013 and if it was up to me I would spend the money on some proven vets that need no time to develop than use an early first on a RT or G.

    Either way I don't believe Grigson has pingeon holed himself in some high risk high reward rebuild like you suggested. In fact by making those cuts in 2011 he his more flexible to fill the holes with proven guys on both sides of the ball.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 08-29-2012 at 03:56 PM.

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  15. #186
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    David Carr had a bad o-line, but David Carr also was a statue in the pocket, seemed to have zero ability to recognize pass rush and held on to the ball entirely too long.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    What ChicagoJ is really trying to say is that if you have an elite line, you can get away with having an average QB like Ben.

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  18. #188
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    What ChicagoJ is really trying to say is that if you have an elite line, you can get away with having an average QB like Ben.
    I wish we had an elite line! Then we could run the ball down people's throats all game long. The only way we survive with an average QB like Ben is that he's difficult to tackle. And defense.

    I don't have a good feeling about the upcoming season for the Steelers.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #189
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    If ever a movie was made about Ben, he'd be played by Will Farrell. Lol, sorry, I have a hard time taking Rapelisberger seriously, he looks like he's just a mullet/rat-tail away from looking like a true backwoods beer-guzzling redneck.

    He is a playmaker though, gotta give it to him. He doesn't look like your typical NFL QB, but he'll take the most broken-down ugly play that looks like it's heading toward a bad ending and stumble his way into some crazy completion that leaves you goin', "Huh? What just happened... not understanding....."
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  20. #190

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    What ChicagoJ is really trying to say is that if you have an elite line, you can get away with having an average QB like Ben.
    I know you are joking but Ben IMO will be a HOF quarterback. Don't get me wrong I think he is a bottom tier HOF qb but he is as clutch as they get. Just to nail this point home to people when you compare him to a superior QB in Aaron Rodgers he has 6 more 4th quarter game winning drives than AR in the same time period.

    Even if they don't have the same number of opportunities he still has more GWD's over Aaron.

    So with that said I think Ben is a great QB that often times gets under valued by a lot of people incuding Steeler fans. Now take Matt Schuab and I think thats just a "good" QB with a great line which I don't think can win a Superbowl with Chicago J's team building concepts.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 08-30-2012 at 02:03 PM.

  21. #191

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I know you are joking but Ben IMO will be a HOF quarterback. Don't get me wrong I think he is a bottom tier HOF qb but he is as clutch as they get. Just to nail this point home to people when you compare him to a superior QB in Aaron Rodgers he has 6 more 4th quarter game winning drives than AR in the same time period.

    Even if they don't have the same number of opportunities he still has more GWD's over Aaron.

    So with that said I think Ben is a great QB that often times gets under valued by a lot of people incuding Steeler fans. Now take Matt Schuab and I think thats just a "good" QB with a great line which I don't think can win a Superbowl with Chicago J's team building concepts.
    HOF? I can't get over his first SB performance. What an atrocious affair. The only reason they've won 2 SBs is because of the running game, their ridiculous defense, and Ben's ability to be difficult to sack (and he still gets sacked a lot).
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

  22. #192
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Yea his style is definitely not my favorite, but he's gotten it done at certain points. I'm not sure if he's HoF-caliber, but I guess I wouldn't be surprised if he did squeak in. His stats aren't all-world, he's had injury issues, and he's had off-the-field issues, so that might be enough to keep him out.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  23. #193

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    HOF? I can't get over his first SB performance. What an atrocious affair. The only reason they've won 2 SBs is because of the running game, their ridiculous defense, and Ben's ability to be difficult to sack (and he still gets sacked a lot).
    No doubt he was terrible in that game and the refs were no better but his overall record of come backs and game winners are just too many to ignore. He will go down as a HOF eventually IMO.

    One thing that gets ignored is that rarely do teams have a good o-line in both pass blocking and run blocking. Those guys are rare and the Steelers have come to rely on Bens ability to create offense out of terrible pass blocking and its even worse now since they are no longer good at run blocking either.

  24. #194
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    I don't agree. The only reason we've won two SBs and played in another in the past decade is our defense.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  26. #195

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    That wasn't my intention, but it reads wrong. 13 PPG was the Steelers average their last SB season. Sorry about the confusion.

    Also, to be clear, I'm not saying the alternative strategy I'm talking about is the only way, but it is a lower- risk alternative. Many of the bottom teams in the NFL stay there for a long time chasing that strategy (that the Colts are currently following) through multiple iterations.
    What you're saying is that you don't draft a Manning, Marino, Elway because without an elite line they can get hurt and not realize their potential or you need other pieces first. Tell me you wouldn't really pass on the guys mentioned. Peyton never had a really elite line.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I don't agree. The only reason we've won two SBs and played in another in the past decade is our defense.
    Don't agree with what?

    Hopefully you're not saying that's the only way to build a team.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 08-30-2012 at 09:11 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  28. #197

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Don't agree with what.

    Hopefully you're not saying that's the only way to build a team.
    Hasn't worked for the Ravens yet.

  29. #198
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Hasn't worked for the Ravens yet.
    Well.... it DID work... once. Twelve years ago. I think the point is... you can build a SuperBowl team a number of different ways, it's pretty foolish to say you should only do it this way or that.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  30. #199
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Don't agree with what?

    Hopefully you're not saying that's the only way to build a team.
    I don't agree that the only reason we're 2-1 in SBs in the past decade is our running game. Mendenhall barely did anything in SB45.

    Its our defense.

    And no, I don't believe that building an elite defense is any more the one single way to build a team than I believe building around a franchise QB is the one single way to build a team.

    My point all along has been, building a team around one player - especially a QB - is a risky strategy. I didn't say it never worked, but there are many more failures than successes.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  32. #200
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    Hasn't worked for the Ravens yet.
    Well, they've built the second-best defense in the division. If they want to follow our strategy and get past us to the Super Bowl, they've got to do it better. So far they haven't. But our D is aging and Aaron Smith's retirement will hurt our run defense. We'll miss Farrior's leadership. But those guys lost a step or two before retiring. This is Baltimore's window.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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