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Thread: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

  1. #151
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by CompACE View Post
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    You can win... It's just difficult. Maybe not the Superbowl, but you can at least make the playoffs. Case and point: 49ers. I'm not saying it isn't very hard, just pointing out that it isn't impossible.
    Sure, there will always be a few sitiations where teams advance with a mediocre QB. The 49ers from last year were the exception, not the rule, and I would be surprised if they duplicate their success this year.
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Defense can take ya far, but it takes a rare defense that can win a Super Bowl on it's own. The 2000 Ravens.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  4. #153
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I would like to talk risk vs reward with you Jay.

    Part of this all boils down is playing the hand that was dealt to you. I mean no one wanted Manning to get hurt but he did and one of the best QB prospects was there for the taking.

    Do you suggest not taking Luck and playing with an inferior team with bloated contracts and late 1st round picks to rebuild. Knowing a little about you I would say that you wouldn't prefer that but pleast correct me if I am wrong.
    This just wasn't the year to draft a QB. Trade down from #1 for as many lower first and second round picks as you can accumulate and draft offensive and defensive linemen. The Steelers also have had a lousy o-line, yet were able to pick up two guys (DeCastro, Adams) that "should" form the foundation of the line (along with Pouncey and Gibson selected over the past couple of years) long after Big Ben is gone. Solidify the lines first and address the "skills" positions second. Time will tell, but I think the team with DeCastro and Adams set themselves up better for success three-to-five years down the road regardless of who might be playing QB.

    Luck and more importantly Grigson is inheriting a bad team so no arguments there but this isn't really a high risk way to build IMo. All franchise rebuilds are risky but the most successful rebuilds have one thing in common. They play the hand that was dealt to them.

    So what was Grigson's poker hand? A young but talented LT and underachieving RB, a old wr, a young talented wr in Garcon (who would cost too much to keep), a porous DL and a secondary to match and bloated contracts that would hinder the rebuilding process.

    Really I am more concerned if a GM ignores the talent staring him in the face and doesn't seize the opportunity to draft those guys.
    Okay.

    I think all 32 GM's would agree that starting off with one of the most highly praised rookie QB's of this generation (under a decent contract) is a good start to a rebuilding process.
    I disagree. There are several that would start on the lines first and address the skills positions next. Football games are still won in the trenches.

    Notice I said good start because much of your examples are GM's/presidents that don't finish the process. They ignore the problems until its too late or they have untimely injuries and bad misfortune as is the case of the Chargers with Bree's injury and Eli's trade request.

    The only hope I have in Grigson is that he is not one to ignore the problem of not having weapons for a QB or a team that ultimately sucks on D. He won't ignore problems or holes that have to be filled and thats a good thing IMO.

    For one if his picks suck or his trades stink he will be replaced sooner than later which to me is very improtant not to hang on to incompetent people in the FO. Those above mention teams often do so which ultimately leads to their demise or lack of success.

    Much of this rebuild will happen next year do to the team salary cap. IF Grigson tries this low cost patch work on the o-line and d-line next year then I will start to worry but much of this years moves have to do with having no cap so I can't understand your point of how this is a high risk rebuild since really the hard moves of cutting players and the rewards of doing so is yet to pay off.
    I wouldn't ever put a franchise QB behind a makeshift line. I'd fix the line first, and those are the "weapons" that Luck needs - not receivers. You need a very, very, very good QB. We agree on that. But a best-in-generation QB is not very valuable when he's on his back, or hearing footsteps, or on crutches, or has no one to hand the ball to, or barely has time to throw a quick-read pass.

    Thanks for engaging.

    There is more than one way to do build a team and the high-risk, high-reward stuff can bring about high rewards some of the time. Who would have ever thought, even in the year 2000, that we'd see a Colts-Saints Super Bowl? Two franchises with decades of poor management desperate for one of their franchise QBs to pan out. We have no idea who the Super Bowl contenders will be three years out. Many of you would argue that it will be the team with the best QB. I think it will be the team with the best lines, as the best OL can make a very, very, very good QB look like a great QB and an average line can make a superstar QB look average.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  6. #154
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Chicago J is simply jealous of the Colts.
    Funniest thing I've ever read on here.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  8. #155
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Nah... the whole trench thing is not at all some fact. We won umpteen games over the past decade with some makeshift O-lines, and for that matter, D-lines... we just had a QB who was fantastic at making it work.

    And DeCastro is out for the season, and maybe even his career. What would you have done if we passed on Luck to draft a couple lineman, only to have that lineman go down like that? Then you not only missed out on Luck, but you lost your lineman, too. Silly. Take the best talent that fills a need, not work on some myth that the war is won in the trenches. Speaking of trenches, they aren't used in wars anymore.

    Not that you want to ignore the lines, but to assume that getting your lines in place before you land your all-world QB is somehow "safer" and less risky is just.... old fashioned. I don't think there's any proof at all that that is in any way reality.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 08-28-2012 at 03:22 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Not that you want to ignore the lines, but to assume that getting your lines in place before you land your all-world QB is somehow "safer" and less risky is just.... old fashioned. I don't think there's any proof at all that that is in any way reality.
    And as of right now there are 8 quality free agent OL tackles after this season. If the Colts have the cap space we think they will there are choices.
    You know how hippos are made out to be sweet and silly, like big cows, but are actually extremely dangerous and can kill you with stunning brutality? The Pacers are the NBA's hippos....Matt Moore CBS Sports....

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    There's more than 1 way to skin a cat and I don't necessarily think ChicagoJ's ideas are bad but it's not the ONLY way to build a team and be successful doing it. Thus, just because a team doesn't take your preferred strategy, doesn't mean management is led by a bunch of ignorant morons like some posters would like you to think.

    Building up the line first would more than likely keep you from having a high enough pick to get a talent like Luck behind it. You'd have to get lucky by drafting a diamond in the rough (which is risky) or bring in someone from FA (which will either be expensive or be risky as well).

    There is risk involved in every strategy. People can argue til they're red in the face but there's no way to prove one strategy is any more risky than the other.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    There's more than 1 way to skin a cat and I don't necessarily think ChicagoJ's ideas are bad but it's not the ONLY way to build a team and be successful doing it. Thus, just because a team doesn't take your preferred strategy, doesn't mean management is led by a bunch of ignorant morons like some posters would like you to think.

    Building up the line first would more than likely keep you from having a high enough pick to get a talent like Luck behind it. You'd have to get lucky by drafting a diamond in the rough (which is risky) or bring in someone from FA (which will either be expensive or be risky as well).

    There is risk involved in every strategy. People can argue til they're red in the face but there's no way to prove one strategy is any more risky than the other.
    Chicago J's ideas are old-fashioned and out-dated. Building a team around a QB is how you get to a SB in this decade. There is a reason why QB's are the highest paid and most protected football players
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    There's more than 1 way to skin a cat and I don't necessarily think ChicagoJ's ideas are bad but it's not the ONLY way to build a team and be successful doing it. Thus, just because a team doesn't take your preferred strategy, doesn't mean management is led by a bunch of ignorant morons like some posters would like you to think.
    I'm not the one saying it is the only strategy. Unlike others on here defending it as if it were the only possible approach. We have no clue yet if the new GM will be good. By definition, he's new with no track record.

    Building up the line first would more than likely keep you from having a high enough pick to get a talent like Luck behind it. You'd have to get lucky by drafting a diamond in the rough (which is risky) or bring in someone from FA (which will either be expensive or be risky as well).
    There is still a lot of evidence that QB's selected later in the first round have more successful careers than those selected in the top-five.

    There is risk involved in every strategy. People can argue til they're red in the face but there's no way to prove one strategy is any more risky than the other.
    There isn't a way to prove a strategy is any more risky than another?

    I need to change careers then, because all the finance and strategy folks I work with daily seem to be able to do that type of analysis. You can evaluate success rates, failure rates, compute RoIs, run scenarios and simulations, etc.

    Risk and reward are commonly measured.

    Now, you are right that there's no way to prove one's risk profile, even for someone that is risk-averse (and not many rational people will take the higher risk for the same reward) or one's opinions of risk. But risk and reward can be measured.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  17. #160

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I disagree. There are several that would start on the lines first and address the skills positions next. Football games are still won in the trenches.

    I wouldn't ever put a franchise QB behind a makeshift line. I'd fix the line first, and those are the "weapons" that Luck needs - not receivers. You need a very, very, very good QB. We agree on that. But a best-in-generation QB is not very valuable when he's on his back, or hearing footsteps, or on crutches, or has no one to hand the ball to, or barely has time to throw a quick-read pass.

    If I had a bet, I would bet that almost all teams would take Luck #1 if they didn't have a good QB, even if their line sucked. You can make a good line eventually. You make it seem that finding a good QB would be easier to do than finding a line. I completely agree that a line is very important, but you can make a good line eventually with other draft picks. You don't need a round 1 offensive lineman in order to succeed in the NFL. You must have a good QB, and you're more likely to have a good QB if you draft early. You can't waste a high pick if a talent like Luck or RG3 are available, no matter your line situation. If you feel so badly about the line, sit the QB while playing a vet while you fix the line. But don't miss a chance to get that QB.

    And I feel if Ol Blu and Pacergeek combined into a single person, we'd have someone in line with the rest of the board....
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    And DeCastro is out for the season, and maybe even his career. What would you have done if we passed on Luck to draft a couple lineman, only to have that lineman go down like that? Then you not only missed out on Luck, but you lost your lineman, too. Silly. Take the best talent that fills a need, not work on some myth that the war is won in the trenches. Speaking of trenches, they aren't used in wars anymore.
    Last I read, DeCastro isn't going on the IR. He'll miss most of the season, but is expected to return before the season is over.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  20. #162
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    If I had a bet, I would bet that almost all teams would take Luck #1 if they didn't have a good QB, even if their line sucked. You can make a good line eventually. You make it seem that finding a good QB would be easier to do than finding a line. I completely agree that a line is very important, but you can make a good line eventually with other draft picks. -snip-
    No, that's not what I'm saying.

    I'm saying a lot of highly-touted QBs never live up to their potential because they spend their first four seasons on their back, looking at the clouds and a linebackers shoulder pads at best or even worse suffer the types of injuries that tear away at their potential and bring them back to "average".

    And some of those GMs that build a solid foundation of offensive and defensive line play never get a chance to draft a QB that high because an average QB keeps them in playoff contention.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  22. #163
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    There isn't an easy way to prove which strategy is more risky AS IT RELATES TO FOOTBALL. It wasn't a blanket statement covering all categories.

    There is risk involved in every move. Sure, trading the 1st for multiple lower picks will spread that risk over more players and thus less risk per pick but you still have to add the increased risk of not finding a good QB to lead the offense. One of the most important positions on the team, not only on the field but as the face of the franchise.

    QBs picked outside of the top 5 GREATLY OUTNUMBER those picked in the top 5. The question is how likely is a QB to be good enough to be the starter


    QBs that were top 5 picks
    Andrew Luck (starter)
    Robert Griffin III (starter)
    Cam Newton (starter)
    Sam Bradford (starter)
    Matthew Stafford (starter)
    Mark Sanchez (starter)
    Matt Ryan (starter)
    Jamarcus Russell
    Vince Young
    Alex Smith (starter)
    Eli Manning (starter)
    Philip Rivers (starter)
    Carson Palmer (starter)
    David Carr
    Joey Harrington
    Michael Vick (starter)
    Tim Couch
    Donovan McNabb
    Akili Smith
    Peyton Manning (starter)
    Ryan Leaf

    13 of 20 QBs picked in the top 5 since 1998 are still starters for NFL teams. Some of the others were starters for their teams for quite a few years. The success rate of QBs becoming solid starters picked in the top 5 is MUCH HIGHER than those picked outside the top 5. The sheer number of QBs picked outside of the top 5 is the only reason they have comparable success. How many draft picks would you have to waste on the later rounds in order to get a solid starter? how many years would you waste in your search?

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  24. #164

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Omg... where have you been? You're not posting anything profound, we are all aware of the possible ways to fail, we've all been down that road and know what can happen... but why the hell would any true fan focus on that?

    The case of OlBlu goes way beyond thin-skinned homers. It has nothing to do with what he's saying -- it's how he goes about it, and the frequency of it. I don't care if people have dissenting opinions. OlBlu doesn't get that either. It's how he goes about doing it. We start a normal discussion, and you can count on OlBlu entering the thread and just destroying it within a day. And you can count on him insinuating that we're a bunch of non-thinking sheepish idiots who can't form our own thoughts and all we want to do is be mindless rah-rah-rah cheerleaders for our team. He's called more people names on this forum than anyone I can remember. He posts unnecessary negative tangents to threads where he completely didn't stay on topic, and then pulls the ol "oh everyone is ganging up on me, and calling me a troll, poor me" schpiel.

    Let's give you an example. Someone posts:

    OP: Hey guys, what do you think about us getting Vontae Davis?
    Random poster #1: I think he'll be this and that.
    Random poster #2: Yea, but he has this negative, but I think he'll overcome it with this positive.
    Random poster #3: Ya, good pickup, he's 24 and young and this coaching staff will get him in shape.
    OlBlu: It doesn't matter because we'll go 0-16 with or without him. Irsay can't be trusted and Peyton Manning is going to throw 6 touchdowns on him. (Take note that there was no mention of the topic at hand).
    Random poster #1: Haven't you said this in 57 other threads also?
    OlBlu: If you don't like it, then don't read it.
    Random poster #2: Yea, but isn't this excessive? Most people would call this trolling.
    OlBlu: Why does everyoen call me a troll, you're all just stupid rah-rah homers who thinks the Colts are going 16-0 and Luck should be in the HoF. I don't think he'll make it through the season. We should probly draft Barkley from USC next year when we have the #1 pick again since Luck will out of the league by then.
    Random poster #3: Ugh, welcome to ignore.
    Random poster #2: I don't come here often, and I think I'll come here less now.
    OlBlu: I'm 65 and live in a retirement home although my status says I live in a big motorhome and travel the country, and don't have time to wait for the Colts to get good again, and--- Irsay is making Jerry Jones look like a Rhodes scholar.
    Random poster #1: Um, can you show some proof that we all think Indy is going 16-0 this year?
    OlBlu: Look, I've already posted this, go look it up, I'm not reposting something I've already written. Something about CTRL-SHIFT refreshes the page.
    ChicagoJ: Guys, what's wrong with what he said, why are you so thin-skinned.

    And never once did he discuss Vontae Davis.

    That's what we get all up in arms about. It's not a productive argument, it's just getting people riled up. He's not out to have a productive convo.

    Take like... Kstat. He's not a Pacer fan, but he comes here and provides a counter-opinion, knows when to stop, and he's part of a productive exchange... but OlBlu, just pisses people off. We can't have a Colts football discussion without him ruining it. We all get it, he thinks they suck, so move on. But he doesn't. He absolutely refuses to let us have 1 stinking positive thought about the Colts, or even a regular neutral thought. He has to ram it into our heads that he thinks they suck.

    And now you seem to joining in... trust me, that's not a path you want to go down if you want to maintain your rep around here, lol...
    Brilliant!!!

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    There isn't an easy way to prove which strategy is more risky AS IT RELATES TO FOOTBALL. It wasn't a blanket statement covering all categories.

    There is risk involved in every move. Sure, trading the 1st for multiple lower picks will spread that risk over more players and thus less risk per pick but you still have to add the increased risk of not finding a good QB to lead the offense. One of the most important positions on the team, not only on the field but as the face of the franchise.

    QBs picked outside of the top 5 GREATLY OUTNUMBER those picked in the top 5. The question is how likely is a QB to be good enough to be the starter


    QBs that were top 5 picks
    Andrew Luck (starter)
    Robert Griffin III (starter)
    Cam Newton (starter)
    Sam Bradford (starter)
    Matthew Stafford (starter)
    Mark Sanchez (starter)
    Matt Ryan (starter)
    Jamarcus Russell
    Vince Young
    Alex Smith (starter)
    Eli Manning (starter)
    Philip Rivers (starter)
    Carson Palmer (starter)
    David Carr
    Joey Harrington
    Michael Vick (starter)
    Tim Couch
    Donovan McNabb
    Akili Smith
    Peyton Manning (starter)
    Ryan Leaf

    13 of 20 QBs picked in the top 5 since 1998 are still starters for NFL teams. Some of the others were starters for their teams for quite a few years. The success rate of QBs becoming solid starters picked in the top 5 is MUCH HIGHER than those picked outside the top 5. The sheer number of QBs picked outside of the top 5 is the only reason they have comparable success. How many draft picks would you have to waste on the later rounds in order to get a solid starter? how many years would you waste in your search?
    Okay, if you're only looking for a solid starter, then I agree completely.

    While you make a good point about the volume of QBs picked later, and I'm not saying that you should try to build around a sixth-round QB, if you have a good team overall there are a number of QBs you can plug in.

    Or, of the 20 you listed, only 5 or 6 are starting for playoff caliber teams or have ever started for playoff caliber teams. I'm not sure that both the Jets and Chargers will be playoff-caliber this season, but they've been in the playoffs. You guys typically want to dismiss Palmer's success even though he led the Bungles to a couple of playoff appearances. Now you're looking for a solid starter? If your only goal is to get a solid starter at QB, then yes you should take a QB at the #1 draft spot and we can end the conversation. Enjoy your solid starter.

    = = = = = = = = = = = =

    For current playoff-caliber teams, you get Stafford, Smith, Eli, Peyton, maybe Ryan, maybe Vick, and either Sanchez or Rivers.

    So about half of the playoff QBs this year likely won't be top-five picks. (Likely playoff QBs also include non-top-five picks like Rogers, Brady, Flacco, Schaub, Brees?, Cutler?, maybe Romo but I doubt it, and perhaps Andy Dalton and/or Ben or Leftwich if the defenses in the AFC North don't cripple all of its QBs this season.)

    You're overestimating the value of a top-five QB in building an entire football team.

    PS, somebody needs to tell half of the NFL's playoff teams that they're too old school for you guys.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  27. #166
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Omg... where have you been? You're not posting anything profound, we are all aware of the possible ways to fail, we've all been down that road and know what can happen... but why the hell would any true fan focus on that?

    The case of OlBlu goes way beyond thin-skinned homers. It has nothing to do with what he's saying -- it's how he goes about it, and the frequency of it. I don't care if people have dissenting opinions. OlBlu doesn't get that either. It's how he goes about doing it. We start a normal discussion, and you can count on OlBlu entering the thread and just destroying it within a day. And you can count on him insinuating that we're a bunch of non-thinking sheepish idiots who can't form our own thoughts and all we want to do is be mindless rah-rah-rah cheerleaders for our team. He's called more people names on this forum than anyone I can remember. He posts unnecessary negative tangents to threads where he completely didn't stay on topic, and then pulls the ol "oh everyone is ganging up on me, and calling me a troll, poor me" schpiel.

    Let's give you an example. Someone posts:

    OP: Hey guys, what do you think about us getting Vontae Davis?
    Random poster #1: I think he'll be this and that.
    Random poster #2: Yea, but he has this negative, but I think he'll overcome it with this positive.
    Random poster #3: Ya, good pickup, he's 24 and young and this coaching staff will get him in shape.
    OlBlu: It doesn't matter because we'll go 0-16 with or without him. Irsay can't be trusted and Peyton Manning is going to throw 6 touchdowns on him. (Take note that there was no mention of the topic at hand).
    Random poster #1: Haven't you said this in 57 other threads also?
    OlBlu: If you don't like it, then don't read it.
    Random poster #2: Yea, but isn't this excessive? Most people would call this trolling.
    OlBlu: Why does everyoen call me a troll, you're all just stupid rah-rah homers who thinks the Colts are going 16-0 and Luck should be in the HoF. I don't think he'll make it through the season. We should probly draft Barkley from USC next year when we have the #1 pick again since Luck will out of the league by then.
    Random poster #3: Ugh, welcome to ignore.
    Random poster #2: I don't come here often, and I think I'll come here less now.
    OlBlu: I'm 65 and live in a retirement home although my status says I live in a big motorhome and travel the country, and don't have time to wait for the Colts to get good again, and--- Irsay is making Jerry Jones look like a Rhodes scholar.
    Random poster #1: Um, can you show some proof that we all think Indy is going 16-0 this year?
    OlBlu: Look, I've already posted this, go look it up, I'm not reposting something I've already written. Something about CTRL-SHIFT refreshes the page.
    ChicagoJ: Guys, what's wrong with what he said, why are you so thin-skinned.

    And never once did he discuss Vontae Davis.

    That's what we get all up in arms about. It's not a productive argument, it's just getting people riled up. He's not out to have a productive convo.

    Take like... Kstat. He's not a Pacer fan, but he comes here and provides a counter-opinion, knows when to stop, and he's part of a productive exchange... but OlBlu, just pisses people off. We can't have a Colts football discussion without him ruining it. We all get it, he thinks they suck, so move on. But he doesn't. He absolutely refuses to let us have 1 stinking positive thought about the Colts, or even a regular neutral thought. He has to ram it into our heads that he thinks they suck.

    And now you seem to joining in... trust me, that's not a path you want to go down if you want to maintain your rep around here, lol...
    I agree with you often, but I seriously doubt ChicagoJ is going down the same path that OB went. His argument is reasonable (A crappy line CAN break a team - hopefully we get that fixed soon for Mr. Luck). I've read a few of his replies and he seems to be able to back up his comments instead of going off on rants about Irsay shaving off the top (He did say he didn't like Irsay, but it wasn't in some annoying conspiratorial way). People may think he's wrong, but his comments aren't certainly out of line. Also he's been on the board since 2004 and I'm pretty confident most long-time PD members would know better than to waste brain cells derailing every Colts thread.

  28. #167
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    You obviously want the best QB you can get. All I'm pointing out is that your chances of getting at least a solid starter (if not better), is with a top 5 pick. Sure, there are great QBs from later picks but the odds are against you picking the right QB.

    When you have a top 5 pick (which isn't going to be every year for most teams), you have a need at QB and there's a highly rated QB available, you don't pass him up. period.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Swingman View Post
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    You obviously want the best QB you can get. All I'm pointing out is that your chances of getting at least a solid starter (if not better), is with a top 5 pick. Sure, there are great QBs from later picks but the odds are against you picking the right QB.

    When you have a top 5 pick (which isn't going to be every year for most teams), you have a need at QB and there's a highly rated QB available, you don't pass him up. period.
    Nah. I really don't care about the QB position. I want the best core of linebackers I can get, playing behind a physical defensive line. And I want to turn those LBs loose, at full speed, at QBs playing behind weak offensive lines while the front-three stuff all the running gaps.

    But that's why I'm a Steelers fan.

    No surprises here.

    But you get better value for LBs lower in the draft, especially when you have a penchant for converting undersized college DEs to monster LBs.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  31. #169
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Nah. I really don't care about the QB position. I want the best core of linebackers I can get, playing behind a physical defensive line. And I want to turn those LBs loose, at full speed, at QBs playing behind weak offensive lines while the front-three stuff all the running gaps.

    But that's why I'm a Steelers fan.

    No surprises here.

    But you get better value for LBs lower in the draft, especially when you have a penchant for converting undersized college DEs to monster LBs.



    Quite simply, that comment is beyond ridiculous. QB's, not LB's win championships. CompAce, forget about the dude's join date and status here, ChicagoJ is freakin nuts
    David "And One" West

  32. #170
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I'm just saying, there might be some over-the-top comments in this thread that ruffled my feathers too, and not all of them came from OlBlu.
    Just in case this got lost in the shuffle, it bears repeating.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  34. #171
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Nah. I really don't care about the QB position. I want the best core of linebackers I can get, playing behind a physical defensive line. And I want to turn those LBs loose, at full speed, at QBs playing behind weak offensive lines while the front-three stuff all the running gaps.

    But that's why I'm a Steelers fan.

    No surprises here.

    But you get better value for LBs lower in the draft, especially when you have a penchant for converting undersized college DEs to monster LBs.

    You say you don't care about the QB position, yet you've ragged on Kordell Stewart how many times on here? Whether you want to admit it or not, I think that deep down you know that QB is an important position. Don't take Ben for granted. If you had to watch Collins and Painter QB your team for most of the season then you would be yearning for the days of Ben's QB play.

    A great defense doesn't do you much good if you don't have a QB that can put points on the board. The Colts defense gave it to the Steelers last year and had Manning played, we would have ran them out of Lucas. But our pitiful QBs couldn't take advantage of the great game that the defense played.

    QB was without question one of the most pressing needs for the Colts this off-season. I don't see why spending *one* draft pick on a QB means that we are going to neglect every other position in the game. It's not like we traded a bunch of good players for him ala Jeff George in 1990. We can use all of our draft picks in future years to fix the other positions, as well as improve them through free agency.

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  36. #172
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    This just in, according to Forbes: of the ten highest-paid players this season, 4 are defensive linemen, 4 are QBs, 1 is an OT and 1 is a WR.

    The highest paid player in the league is a (gasp) defensive player.

    You guys might be familiar with him.

    http://www.indystar.com/article/2012...player-season?

    Guess you better tell that team how out of touch they are with your plans to build a team the newfangled way.

    Hee hee.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  38. #173
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    You say you don't care about the QB position, yet you've ragged on Kordell Stewart how many times on here? Whether you want to admit it or not, I think that deep down you know that QB is an important position. Don't take Ben for granted. If you had to watch Collins and Painter QB your team for most of the season then you would be yearning for the days of Ben's QB play.
    Okay, I'm guilty of a little bit of hyperbole. Its in the top-five of important football positions, but not the most important position. I've watched O'Donnell take a team to the Super Bowl. Kordell to the AFC Championship game. TommyGun to the playoffs. That's 3-4 more SuperBowls we could've won with a better QB than those bozos. I've never said the idea is to pick up a rec-league QB but I've said over and over that you CAN find a QB to lead a well-rounded team outside of the top five picks.

    A great defense doesn't do you much good if you don't have a QB that can put points on the board. The Colts defense gave it to the Steelers last year and had Manning played, we would have ran them out of Lucas. But our pitiful QBs couldn't take advantage of the great game that the defense played.
    You got great QB play that game, from turnover-prone Ben. Meanwhile, if our defense can hold opponents to 13 or less then we don't need a high scoring offense. We need a competent offense that keeps its hands on the ball for long periods of time, but not a high scoring one.

    QB was without question one of the most pressing needs for the Colts this off-season. I don't see why spending *one* draft pick on a QB means that we are going to neglect every other position in the game. It's not like we traded a bunch of good players for him ala Jeff George in 1990. We can use all of our draft picks in future years to fix the other positions, as well as improve them through free agency.
    If Luck survives, then it may well work out like that. Or you could be drafting a QB again soon like the Bengals, Browns, Lions, Jaguars, and other teams have done. We'll see.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  40. #174
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Highest paid positions are not evidence of which positions are most important to the success of the team.

    It's simple supply and demand which effects market value that determines which positions have the highest paid players.

    It's raining in Indiana so it must be hot in California. Huh? What? It seems like that's the kind of reasoning we're getting in this thread.

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  42. #175
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Come on, J. Really? Your general argument makes sense (even if I don't buy it as the single,correct argument), but giving the Steelers D credit for holding the Painter-led Colts offense to 13 points. That's shameless.
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