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Thread: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

  1. #126
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    When Manning was drafted in 1998, do you think anyone said:

    "Hey, I know that Tarik Glenn guy has only played for one season, but he's going to be one of the best LT's of his era, as well as a multiple bro bowler"

    "See that short receiver over there with the 88 on? He's going to become one of the greatest receivers in NFL history and will end his career in the number 2 spot on all time receptions"

    "See that guy on Miami University? We will draft him next year and he'll be one of the best backs of his era for the 7 years that he plays here"

    "See that other guy on Miami University? We will draft him in three years and put him next to that guy in 88 to form one of the greatest receiving duos in NFL history".

    No, no one would have ever predicted any of the stuff I just said. It just sort of happened. And no one can predict what will happen with Luck, or what players we will bring here in future years. Most of the guys that Luck will play the bulk of his career with aren't on the team right now. It's pretty pointless to debate on how Luck's career will pan out until we at least see what we do with our cap space next season, as well as future drafts.

    If we go something like 2-14 or 3-13 next year, how many people will remember/acknowledge that we went 3-13 in Manning's rookie season? How many will remember/acknowledge that we went a putrid 6-10 in his fourth season?
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-28-2012 at 07:48 AM.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Armando Salguero ‏@ArmandoSalguero

    Indy coach Chuck Pagano says his 1st talk w/ Vontae today, CB asked what makes Ray Lewis and Ed Reed great and how he can be like them.
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    Armando Salguero ‏@ArmandoSalguero

    Final factoid on Vontae Davis trade: Jeff Ireland asked the Colts for T.Y Hilton or LaVon Brazill and was told no.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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  5. #128

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    can't blame Ireland for tryin I guess. Miami's receivers are terrible.

  6. #129
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    When Manning was drafted in 1998, do you think anyone said:

    "Hey, I know that Tarik Glenn guy has only played for one season, but he's going to be one of the best LT's of his era, as well as a multiple bro bowler"

    "See that short receiver over there with the 88 on? He's going to become one of the greatest receivers in NFL history and will end his career in the number 2 spot on all time receptions"

    "See that guy on Miami University? We will draft him next year and he'll be one of the best backs of his era for the 7 years that he plays here"

    "See that other guy on Miami University? We will draft him in three years and put him next to that guy in 88 to form one of the greatest receiving duos in NFL history".

    No, no one would have ever predicted any of the stuff I just said. It just sort of happened. And no one can predict what will happen with Luck, or what players we will bring here in future years. Most of the guys that Luck will play the bulk of his career with aren't on the team right now. It's pretty pointless to debate on how Luck's career will pan out until we at least see what we do with our cap space next season, as well as future drafts.

    If we go something like 2-12 or 3-13 next year, how many people will remember/acknowledge that we went 3-13 in Manning's rookie season? How many will remember/acknowledge that we went a putrid 6-10 in his fourth season?
    That's right. If the Colts are going to be good again some day it will be because they've accumulated a lot of new players they don't have now. I guess you think Pollian just got lucky and had no plan? But those teams were better managed (I thought Bill Tobin did a better job setting up Pollian with a decent, but very young, foundation) than what Pollian left for the new regime.

    Their success in five years will have little to do with Luck's development and a lot to do with accumulating a bunch of talent they don't have now.

    Meanwhile, there are plenty of GM's that would have also started with a LT, RB, and perhaps a WR before worrying about the QB. That was one of the big criticisms of the trade with Atlanta back in 1990 - giving up Chris Hinton and Andre Rison for the opportunity to upgrade from Trudeau to George? That's a bad trade overall, especially since Trudeau-Dickerson-Hinton-Rison was a lot better than George-Dickerson-nobody to block, nobody to pass to. And that would have been true in year #1, year #2, year #3, and year #4 of Jeff George's career. So building a team by having a quality LT and RB in place isn't the craziest idea around. I kinda like the way Bettis and Smith-Faneca set the foundation for Ben, too.

    Its not like Faulk, Harrison and Glenn were undrafted surprises, they were high first-round picks that most NFL teams would have liked as a foundation. They were young, yes. In the case of both Faulk and James, every bit as hyped at their position as any high first rounder. Maybe less hype for Harrison and Glenn, but they were mid first-rounders so they shouldn't have surprised anyone that they had successful careers.
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  7. #130

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    But the idea that they still won't be a very good team 4-5 years down the road is pretty reasonable. There are plenty of NFL teams that draft a franchise QB and still end up with really high draft picks for a while....
    28 of 32 NFL teams have made the playoffs in the last 5 seasons. 3 of the 4 teams that didn't (Buffalo, Cleveland, Oakland and St. Louis) have been perennially mismanaged for years and the 4th team's respected owner died 4 1/2 years ago.

    There's so much parity in the NFL that it's much more reasonable to expect the playoffs within 5 seasons than not.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by speakout4 View Post
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    No one knows what the personnel will look like next year so it's pointless to suggest the Colts will stink ad infinitum.
    Especially with a new coaching staff, new system, and new GM. At least let this guys have a season and offseason before 'knowing' their track record and proclaiming they don't know what they are doing, are puppets, or are here as cost cutting measures so Irsay can pocket more money.
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Meanwhile, there are plenty of GM's that would have also started with a LT, RB, and perhaps a WR before worrying about the QB. That was one of the big criticisms of the trade with Atlanta back in 1990 - giving up Chris Hinton and Andre Rison for the opportunity to upgrade from Trudeau to George? That's a bad trade overall, especially since Trudeau-Dickerson-Hinton-Rison was a lot better than George-Dickerson-nobody to block, nobody to pass to. And that would have been true in year #1, year #2, year #3, and year #4 of Jeff George's career. So building a team by having a quality LT and RB in place isn't the craziest idea around.

    Didn't we have a decent QB at the time that we gave up in the chase to get Jeff George.... Chandler?

    And I will agree, the Colts had a decent team and set it back to get Jeff George. Then the he ended up hitting all the cons on his scouting report. But as Dennis Miller said "He sure throws a pretty interception". So, the Colts couldn't much recover from that setback.

    But THESE Colts were pretty putrid last year on their own. So I'm not sure trying to fill the QB role with a homerun in the first round was quite the folly that the Jeff George debacle was. George cost us some important pieces AND failed to capitalize on his arm or show any leadership capabilities. So it all kind of snowballed.

    We let an aging Manning go, but realistically that was a 3-4 year window at best. With a gamble that he'd ever be the same if he played at all. And at major cost. We didn't trade away any solid pieces to go out and get Luck.
    Last edited by Bball; 08-28-2012 at 02:16 AM.
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Good lord this board blows. OlBlu doesn't even have to come back and defend his illogical positions anymore since he somehow has convinced a ****ING ADMIN to do it for him. Instead of banning the trouble maker, we've gone the other way. Unreal.

    I'll see y'all after the season.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    That's right. If the Colts are going to be good again some day it will be because they've accumulated a lot of new players they don't have now. I guess you think Pollian just got lucky and had no plan? But those teams were better managed (I thought Bill Tobin did a better job setting up Pollian with a decent, but very young, foundation) than what Pollian left for the new regime.

    Their success in five years will have little to do with Luck's development and a lot to do with accumulating a bunch of talent they don't have now.

    Meanwhile, there are plenty of GM's that would have also started with a LT, RB, and perhaps a WR before worrying about the QB. That was one of the big criticisms of the trade with Atlanta back in 1990 - giving up Chris Hinton and Andre Rison for the opportunity to upgrade from Trudeau to George? That's a bad trade overall, especially since Trudeau-Dickerson-Hinton-Rison was a lot better than George-Dickerson-nobody to block, nobody to pass to. And that would have been true in year #1, year #2, year #3, and year #4 of Jeff George's career. So building a team by having a quality LT and RB in place isn't the craziest idea around. I kinda like the way Bettis and Smith-Faneca set the foundation for Ben, too.

    Its not like Faulk, Harrison and Glenn were undrafted surprises, they were high first-round picks that most NFL teams would have liked as a foundation. They were young, yes. In the case of both Faulk and James, every bit as hyped at their position as any high first rounder. Maybe less hype for Harrison and Glenn, but they were mid first-rounders so they shouldn't have surprised anyone that they had successful careers.
    Soooooooooooo...... what is your point? That we have to accumulate talent to improve? Duhhhhhhhh. Which is what this entire post is about --- we acquired talent. It's called a "stepping stone". I'm not entirely sure where you're going, but it seems to be with OlBlu.
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by travmil View Post
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    Good lord this board blows. OlBlu doesn't even have to come back and defend his illogical positions anymore since he somehow has convinced a ****ING ADMIN to do it for him. Instead of banning the trouble maker, we've gone the other way. Unreal.

    I'll see y'all after the season.
    dude, you can put him on ignore as most of the board probably already has. It is pretty ridiculous how someone can be so disliked and keeps coming back to the board.
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Meanwhile, there are plenty of GM's that would have also started with a LT, RB, and perhaps a WR before worrying about the QB. That was one of the big criticisms of the trade with Atlanta back in 1990 - giving up Chris Hinton and Andre Rison for the opportunity to upgrade from Trudeau to George? That's a bad trade overall, especially since Trudeau-Dickerson-Hinton-Rison was a lot better than George-Dickerson-nobody to block, nobody to pass to. And that would have been true in year #1, year #2, year #3, and year #4 of Jeff George's career. So building a team by having a quality LT and RB in place isn't the craziest idea around. I kinda like the way Bettis and Smith-Faneca set the foundation for Ben, too.
    What happened 20 years ago is completely inapplicable to the current situation because as you mention, what happened then was a *trade*.

    The Colts didn't give up a bunch of solid goods to get Luck. Had they done that, then your Jeff George example would maybe carry some weight. But that's not what happened -he was drafted with a single draft pick that was ours. It was a selection that virtually every NFL mind on the planet would have made. The ones who wouldn't have drafted Luck would have gone with RGIII instead. 99.999999% of people affiliated with the NFL would have picked Luck or RGIII. There was some debate over Luck vs. RGIII, but never did I hear a GM come out and say that they would take a LT over either one of them. Who are these "plenty of GM's" that would have done this? I would like to see some sort of documentation for this, because as we all know, there is plenty of documentation from four months ago of quality NFL minds from all backgrounds saying that you either take Luck or RGIII. Most sided with Luck.

    You can't draft a LT, RB, and WR with one draft pick. There are later rounds of the drafts (which the Colts used on other positions), as well as future drafts and free agency. The Colts will have a ton cap space next year and if they are smart then they will use a decent chunk of it to beef up the lines. But Rome wasn't built in a day with Manning, and it won't be built in a day with Luck either.

    What is your overall point? That the Colts have to draft well and make smart personal moves?
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-28-2012 at 10:07 AM.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Yea, there's a big difference between landing a superb talent without giving up a bunch of players or picks (Colts/Luck)... and what like, say, the Saints did for Ricky Williams, or the 'Skins did for RG3. Indy has a bunch of assets still to continue to build, while the Saints and 'Skins mortgaged parts of their future.
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    But Rome wasn't built in a day with Manning, and it won't be built in a day with Luck either.

    What is your overall point? That the Colts have to draft well and make smart personal moves?
    And we don't know yet if Rome will be built with the current franchise QB either.

    The big rugged guard that used to protect him college that my team was counting on to protect Ben? Just got mangled by Buffalo's D-line. Absent a better quality line, after 3-4 years of hearing footsteps and rushing throws out of bounds for his own safety, maybe we can call him Couch, Jr.? Nobody knows right now, and it depends on the ability of the front office to upgrade the team quickly.

    3 of the 4 teams that didn't (Buffalo, Cleveland, Oakland and St. Louis) have been perennially mismanaged for years.
    Each of them have made multiple attempts to draft or trade for franchise QBs while not giving said QB much to work with. No-one to block, no-one to hand off to, no-one to throw the ball too, not much on the other side of the ball. The same model the Colts are trying right now.

    This is a high-risk, high-reward strategy. The chance of success is low, but if it works out then the Colts will be contenders again in a few years. The new management team's success rate is unknown, and nobody knows how they'll put their stamp on the team. But the past couple of years it seems Pollian might be closer to mismanagement than contender-builder. Some of you are projecting a Bill Tobin quality roster onto Luck, when he's starting with a late-era Bill Polian quality roster instead.

    Some... not you Adam but you can see what I'm referring to... are acting as if the Colts are following a low-risk strategy with predictable success. They aren't.

    This plan could fail in so many ways. Ask Buffalo, ask Cleveland, ask St. Louis, ask Detroit how long it took them and how many ways the plan failed. Ask the Bengals if Carson Palmer really delivered success, ask the Chargers if Rivers has delivered success (and when he started he actually did have a lot to work with and they've tossed it all away). Ask the Dolphins how many more franchise QB's they'll need to get back to contending, ask the Bears to tell you the difference between Cutler, Grossman, Kordell, Jim Miller, McNown, all of which have been brought in to be the franchise QB in the past 15 years (and probably the most successful of their QBs so far was unheralded Orton.) And even though you think history is irrelevant, history does repeat itself and the Colts have tried many times and been successful twice: Unitas and Manning. Just as the Dophins have been successful twice (Griese, Marino) and are still chasing their next franchise QB.

    And again I ask, why is the NFL board of PacersDigest so much more thin-skinned for non-Homer opinions than the NBA board of PacersDigest? This is a mystery to me.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
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  20. #139
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sparhawk View Post
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    dude, you can put him on ignore as most of the board probably already has. It is pretty ridiculous how someone can be so disliked and keeps coming back to the board.
    I was just saying the same thing to the other admins. Man, if I were to get kicked off a board I can't imagine that I'd ever want to go back to it for any reason. I'd move on. That's the way I'd live my life. And yet famously we've got a long history of people that try to sneak back in after they've pushed us far as we can take it.

    I just don't get it.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I was just saying the same thing to the other admins. Man, if I were to get kicked off a board I can't imagine that I'd ever want to go back to it for any reason. I'd move on. That's the way I'd live my life. And yet famously we've got a long history of people that try to sneak back in after they've pushed us far as we can take it.

    I just don't get it.
    You'd be surprised. I once had to ban 50 (yes, FIFTY) accounts from one person who just kept trying to avoid the banhammer so he could pollute the forum with filth.

    Some people are just nuts.
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And even though you think history is irrelevant, history does repeat itself and the Colts have tried many times and been successful twice: Unitas and Manning. Just as the Dophins have been successful twice (Griese, Marino) and are still chasing their next franchise QB.
    I'd argue that Bert Jones was fairly successful as the Colts franchise QB as well when you consider the circumstances of his career (playing at the same time as Oakland in their prime and the Steel Curtain, plus the fact that his career was cut short by injury).
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And again I ask, why is the NFL board of PacersDigest so much more thin-skinned for non-Homer opinions than the NBA board of PacersDigest? This is a mystery to me.
    Omg... where have you been? You're not posting anything profound, we are all aware of the possible ways to fail, we've all been down that road and know what can happen... but why the hell would any true fan focus on that?

    The case of OlBlu goes way beyond thin-skinned homers. It has nothing to do with what he's saying -- it's how he goes about it, and the frequency of it. I don't care if people have dissenting opinions. OlBlu doesn't get that either. It's how he goes about doing it. We start a normal discussion, and you can count on OlBlu entering the thread and just destroying it within a day. And you can count on him insinuating that we're a bunch of non-thinking sheepish idiots who can't form our own thoughts and all we want to do is be mindless rah-rah-rah cheerleaders for our team. He's called more people names on this forum than anyone I can remember. He posts unnecessary negative tangents to threads where he completely didn't stay on topic, and then pulls the ol "oh everyone is ganging up on me, and calling me a troll, poor me" schpiel.

    Let's give you an example. Someone posts:

    OP: Hey guys, what do you think about us getting Vontae Davis?
    Random poster #1: I think he'll be this and that.
    Random poster #2: Yea, but he has this negative, but I think he'll overcome it with this positive.
    Random poster #3: Ya, good pickup, he's 24 and young and this coaching staff will get him in shape.
    OlBlu: It doesn't matter because we'll go 0-16 with or without him. Irsay can't be trusted and Peyton Manning is going to throw 6 touchdowns on him. (Take note that there was no mention of the topic at hand).
    Random poster #1: Haven't you said this in 57 other threads also?
    OlBlu: If you don't like it, then don't read it.
    Random poster #2: Yea, but isn't this excessive? Most people would call this trolling.
    OlBlu: Why does everyoen call me a troll, you're all just stupid rah-rah homers who thinks the Colts are going 16-0 and Luck should be in the HoF. I don't think he'll make it through the season. We should probly draft Barkley from USC next year when we have the #1 pick again since Luck will out of the league by then.
    Random poster #3: Ugh, welcome to ignore.
    Random poster #2: I don't come here often, and I think I'll come here less now.
    OlBlu: I'm 65 and live in a retirement home although my status says I live in a big motorhome and travel the country, and don't have time to wait for the Colts to get good again, and--- Irsay is making Jerry Jones look like a Rhodes scholar.
    Random poster #1: Um, can you show some proof that we all think Indy is going 16-0 this year?
    OlBlu: Look, I've already posted this, go look it up, I'm not reposting something I've already written. Something about CTRL-SHIFT refreshes the page.
    ChicagoJ: Guys, what's wrong with what he said, why are you so thin-skinned.

    And never once did he discuss Vontae Davis.

    That's what we get all up in arms about. It's not a productive argument, it's just getting people riled up. He's not out to have a productive convo.

    Take like... Kstat. He's not a Pacer fan, but he comes here and provides a counter-opinion, knows when to stop, and he's part of a productive exchange... but OlBlu, just pisses people off. We can't have a Colts football discussion without him ruining it. We all get it, he thinks they suck, so move on. But he doesn't. He absolutely refuses to let us have 1 stinking positive thought about the Colts, or even a regular neutral thought. He has to ram it into our heads that he thinks they suck.

    And now you seem to joining in... trust me, that's not a path you want to go down if you want to maintain your rep around here, lol...
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 08-28-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Chicago J is simply jealous of the Colts. Once dynasties lose their QB, they are supposed to be terrible for several seasons until they find their new franchise QB. The Dolphins, and to an extent, the Broncos are still trying to replace Dan Marino and John Elway. The Colts don't have to worry about that scenerio because Andrew Luck fell into our laps. The Colts are good now, and we only had one terrible season to suffer through.
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And we don't know yet if Rome will be built with the current franchise QB either.

    The big rugged guard that used to protect him college that my team was counting on to protect Ben? Just got mangled by Buffalo's D-line. Absent a better quality line, after 3-4 years of hearing footsteps and rushing throws out of bounds for his own safety, maybe we can call him Couch, Jr.? Nobody knows right now, and it depends on the ability of the front office to upgrade the team quickly.



    Each of them have made multiple attempts to draft or trade for franchise QBs while not giving said QB much to work with. No-one to block, no-one to hand off to, no-one to throw the ball too, not much on the other side of the ball. The same model the Colts are trying right now.

    This is a high-risk, high-reward strategy. The chance of success is low, but if it works out then the Colts will be contenders again in a few years. The new management team's success rate is unknown, and nobody knows how they'll put their stamp on the team. But the past couple of years it seems Pollian might be closer to mismanagement than contender-builder. Some of you are projecting a Bill Tobin quality roster onto Luck, when he's starting with a late-era Bill Polian quality roster instead.

    Some... not you Adam but you can see what I'm referring to... are acting as if the Colts are following a low-risk strategy with predictable success. They aren't.

    This plan could fail in so many ways. Ask Buffalo, ask Cleveland, ask St. Louis, ask Detroit how long it took them and how many ways the plan failed. Ask the Bengals if Carson Palmer really delivered success, ask the Chargers if Rivers has delivered success (and when he started he actually did have a lot to work with and they've tossed it all away). Ask the Dolphins how many more franchise QB's they'll need to get back to contending, ask the Bears to tell you the difference between Cutler, Grossman, Kordell, Jim Miller, McNown, all of which have been brought in to be the franchise QB in the past 15 years (and probably the most successful of their QBs so far was unheralded Orton.) And even though you think history is irrelevant, history does repeat itself and the Colts have tried many times and been successful twice: Unitas and Manning. Just as the Dophins have been successful twice (Griese, Marino) and are still chasing their next franchise QB.

    And again I ask, why is the NFL board of PacersDigest so much more thin-skinned for non-Homer opinions than the NBA board of PacersDigest? This is a mystery to me.
    I would like to talk risk vs reward with you Jay.

    Part of this all boils down is playing the hand that was dealt to you. I mean no one wanted Manning to get hurt but he did and one of the best QB prospects was there for the taking.

    Do you suggest not taking Luck and playing with an inferior team with bloated contracts and late 1st round picks to rebuild. Knowing a little about you I would say that you wouldn't prefer that but pleast correct me if I am wrong.

    Luck and more importantly Grigson is inheriting a bad team so no arguments there but this isn't really a high risk way to build IMo. All franchise rebuilds are risky but the most successful rebuilds have one thing in common. They play the hand that was dealt to them.

    So what was Grigson's poker hand? A young but talented LT and underachieving RB, a old wr, a young talented wr in Garcon (who would cost too much to keep), a porous DL and a secondary to match and bloated contracts that would hinder the rebuilding process.

    Really I am more concerned if a GM ignores the talent staring him in the face and doesn't seize the opportunity to draft those guys.

    I think all 32 GM's would agree that starting off with one of the most highly praised rookie QB's of this generation (under a decent contract) is a good start to a rebuilding process. Notice I said good start because much of your examples are GM's/presidents that don't finish the process. They ignore the problems until its too late or they have untimely injuries and bad misfortune as is the case of the Chargers with Bree's injury and Eli's trade request.

    The only hope I have in Grigson is that he is not one to ignore the problem of not having weapons for a QB or a team that ultimately sucks on D. He won't ignore problems or holes that have to be filled and thats a good thing IMO.

    For one if his picks suck or his trades stink he will be replaced sooner than later which to me is very improtant not to hang on to incompetent people in the FO. Those above mention teams often do so which ultimately leads to their demise or lack of success.

    Much of this rebuild will happen next year do to the team salary cap. IF Grigson tries this low cost patch work on the o-line and d-line next year then I will start to worry but much of this years moves have to do with having no cap so I can't understand your point of how this is a high risk rebuild since really the hard moves of cutting players and the rewards of doing so is yet to pay off.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 08-28-2012 at 01:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Chicago J is simply jealous of the Colts.
    I hate his team, but I doubt he is jealous of the Colts given that his Steelers have won 2 Super Bowls in recent years and played in a third one.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-28-2012 at 01:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I hate his team, but I doubt he is jealous of Colts given that his Steelers have won 2 Super Bowls in recent years and played in a third one.
    He is jealous. I can admit I am jealous of the Patriots, and I would be furious if they were still contenders once Brady retires. Colts haters were looking forward to us stinking for a long time once Peyton was gone. However, they know now we won't suck because we have a future MVP QB in Andre Luck
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    And we don't know yet if Rome will be built with the current franchise QB either.

    The big rugged guard that used to protect him college that my team was counting on to protect Ben? Just got mangled by Buffalo's D-line. Absent a better quality line, after 3-4 years of hearing footsteps and rushing throws out of bounds for his own safety, maybe we can call him Couch, Jr.? Nobody knows right now, and it depends on the ability of the front office to upgrade the team quickly.



    Each of them have made multiple attempts to draft or trade for franchise QBs while not giving said QB much to work with. No-one to block, no-one to hand off to, no-one to throw the ball too, not much on the other side of the ball. The same model the Colts are trying right now.

    This is a high-risk, high-reward strategy. The chance of success is low, but if it works out then the Colts will be contenders again in a few years. The new management team's success rate is unknown, and nobody knows how they'll put their stamp on the team. But the past couple of years it seems Pollian might be closer to mismanagement than contender-builder. Some of you are projecting a Bill Tobin quality roster onto Luck, when he's starting with a late-era Bill Polian quality roster instead.

    Some... not you Adam but you can see what I'm referring to... are acting as if the Colts are following a low-risk strategy with predictable success. They aren't.

    This plan could fail in so many ways. Ask Buffalo, ask Cleveland, ask St. Louis, ask Detroit how long it took them and how many ways the plan failed. Ask the Bengals if Carson Palmer really delivered success, ask the Chargers if Rivers has delivered success (and when he started he actually did have a lot to work with and they've tossed it all away). Ask the Dolphins how many more franchise QB's they'll need to get back to contending, ask the Bears to tell you the difference between Cutler, Grossman, Kordell, Jim Miller, McNown, all of which have been brought in to be the franchise QB in the past 15 years (and probably the most successful of their QBs so far was unheralded Orton.) And even though you think history is irrelevant, history does repeat itself and the Colts have tried many times and been successful twice: Unitas and Manning. Just as the Dophins have been successful twice (Griese, Marino) and are still chasing their next franchise QB.

    And again I ask, why is the NFL board of PacersDigest so much more thin-skinned for non-Homer opinions than the NBA board of PacersDigest? This is a mystery to me.

    There's no question that Luck could fail. But I just don't see what is "high risk" about it. Luck was one draft pick, and it's a pick that the majority of NFL GM's would have made. The rest would have taken RGIII. I don't think anyone would have passed on both.

    Trading Hinton and Rison for the opportunity to draft Jeff George was high risk because the Colts were trading proven players for the opportunity to draft a guy that had never played a game in the NFL. But that's not what happened this go around. Like with Manning in 1998, the Colts simply drafted Luck with the draft pick that was theirs. I know that you obviously aren't big on the strategy of revolving your team around a QB, but even you have to admit that you must at least have competent QB play. And the QB play that the Colts had last year was some of the worst QBing ever. The team actually competed at the beginning of the season, as I'm sure you know if you watched the Colts/Steelers game last year. But the QB was just too damn bad to win games. Anyway you slice it, QB was a big need for this team this off-season as we simply couldn't roll with the types of QBs that we had last year. So what better way to fill that position than to draft a phenom that the majority of expert GMs would draft if they were in your position? We can debate all day just how important a QB is, but you at least have to have someone competent and skilled to play the position. And the Colts had no such player on the roster.

    But he was just one draft pick. Drafting Luck with the number 1 pick in 2012 does not preclude this team from using other picks and free agency signings on positions like LT, RB, WR, and the defense. This team can still make the types of moves that you advocate with Luck on the roster. If we expect Luck to carry flawed rosters at the beginning of his career like Peyton did at the end of his then I agree, that's a very bad strategy. But I'm going to give management the benefit of the doubt that they will attempt to create a complete football team. The Colts have a large amount of cap space next year, as well as the draft (of course, we lost our second round pick for Davis). If it doesn't work then it doesn't work.

    As to your comment about the NFL board being more "thin skinned" than the Pacers board, I think that is because the Colts were on top for the majority of the years that this site has existed, while the Pacers were mostly in the cellar. This site was created before the 03-04 season. That was a great year for both the Pacers and Colts, as they both made the conference championships. After that though, they went completely opposite ways. The Pacers had the brawl followed by years of horrible basketball, while the Colts had Manning setting records and playing in Super Bowls. So if you like the Pacers and Colts equally, as I do, then you were likely much more emotionally excited about the team that was a championship contender year in and year out.

    I don't think opposing fans were very interested in coming here during 08 to tell us how bad our Pacer team was. That would have been kind of redundant.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-28-2012 at 01:30 PM.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    I don't understand the risk/reward thing at all. We had a horrible year and earned the #1 pick. What are we sposed to do, pick Nick Foles over Luck? This is a team who understands the value of an elite quarterback. Taking Luck wasn't high-risk. These sames examples were used when we drafted Manning 14 years ago. "Do you realize how often a #1 pick takes their team to a Super Bowl? Not often, the chance that Manning will fail and be a bust is just as high as him being a serviceable QB." Heard it a million times. Well, guess what --- Manning won us a Super Bowl. The "chances" were against us, eh? Well guess they're against us again.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    You cannot win in the NFL today without an elite QB. You really can't even make it to a SB without one. The game has evolved since Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson won SB's. Drafting Luck was 100 percent the correct decision
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    You cannot win in the NFL today without an elite QB. You really can't even make it to a SB without one. The game has evolved since Trent Dilfer and Brad Johnson won SB's. Drafting Luck was 100 percent the correct decision
    You can win... It's just difficult. Maybe not the Superbowl, but you can at least make the playoffs. Case and point: 49ers. I'm not saying it isn't very hard, just pointing out that it isn't impossible.

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