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Thread: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

  1. #201
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    The Ravens don't look half bad this year, even offensively. I have them as one of the contenders in the AFC. I have some concerns about the Steelers. I'd say Baltimore's window isn't too big, however, with Reed and Lewis being 55 years old each.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  2. #202
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I don't agree that the only reason we're 2-1 in SBs in the past decade is our running game. Mendenhall barely did anything in SB45.

    Its our defense.

    And no, I don't believe that building an elite defense is any more the one single way to build a team than I believe building around a franchise QB is the one single way to build a team.

    My point all along has been, building a team around one player - especially a QB - is a risky strategy. I didn't say it never worked, but there are many more failures than successes.
    1) We're not building around one player. We just happen to have one really good prospect, but I don't believe they are "building" around him, I think they have plans for the entire team. Going from a 4-3 to a 3-4 shows me that it's not just the QB position that they are looking to address. All the cornerbacks and receivers we've brought in... aren't quarterbacks.
    2) I think building a team with a focus on QB is no less risky than one of defense, it's not like the defensive juggernauts of the past decade have a stranglehold on Super Bowl titles. To be honest, it's the balanced teams that usually win it. NE, NY, Indy when they won it, you could even argue Pitt, because Roethlisberger & Co. are no slouches offensively.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I don't agree that the only reason we're 2-1 in SBs in the past decade is our running game. Mendenhall barely did anything in SB45.

    Its our defense.
    I wouldn't say the defense "won" you Superbowl 43. The Cardinals didn't have many running yards and the Harrison interception return was certainly crucial, but Warner completely carved you up for 3 touchdowns and 377 yards. That game ultimately came down to offense and which quarterback could get the final clutch play in. Luckily for the Steelers, Ben and Holmes had one of the most beautiful hookups in Super Bowl History. An incredible throw and a fantastic catch.

    The defense certainly shut the Seahawks down back Super Bowl 40, but both Warner and Rodgers completely carved you up in the latter two. On the whole, the Steelers defense has been less than stellar in the three recent Super Bowls they've played in.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-31-2012 at 11:07 AM.

  4. #204

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    I don't agree that the only reason we're 2-1 in SBs in the past decade is our running game. Mendenhall barely did anything in SB45.

    Its our defense.

    And no, I don't believe that building an elite defense is any more the one single way to build a team than I believe building around a franchise QB is the one single way to build a team.

    My point all along has been, building a team around one player - especially a QB - is a risky strategy. I didn't say it never worked, but there are many more failures than successes.
    No team builds around one player alone Jay.

    Its a philosophy of either pass over run or stop the pass over the run that really I think is the hang up in all of this discussion.

    Its make the opposing team one dimenisional and try not to be one dimensional yourself.

    The Steelers had a great defense because they could do both but also the rules largely favored the CB's holding and clutching the WR after 5 yards before 04. Now that the refs call more holding and pass interference calls that strategy is still good but not as effective as it once was.

    IMo the run game has been de-emphasized and the passing game has been elevated in its importance to about 90% of the teams in the NFL and its in large part of that 2004 rule change and roughing the passer rule changes IMO.

    Like Sollozzo said choosing Luck doesn't put the Colts on some high risk path when you consider who the GM is and who the coach is. I mean if Bill Polain was still in the FO then ya I could see your point but the coach has a strong run defensive philosophy and the GM is a former offensive lineman who largerly values a good offensive line.

    I really can't understand why you said that this wasn't the year to draft a QB when it was the best year. I mean this was the lotto of all years to draft a QB in the early first round IMO.

    Much of what you use to back up your point of bad teams staying bad by reaching for Qb's shouldn't be used here since Luck was or was one of the best QB's that merited that pick and was largely argued to be one of the best in the last decade.

    Now obivously you don't believe the hype around Luck if you don't believe he merits that pick but IMO he does and I would still argue that 95% of the NFL FO's would have taken him regardless of other team needs.

    Let me just say I will agree with you if Grigson has a largely offensive draft in 2013 and the 2013 FA's are stop gap guys that won't largely improve the defense. Until then I won't mind having a largely inferior team for one year.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 08-31-2012 at 12:35 PM.

  5. #205
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I wouldn't say the defense "won" you Superbowl 43. The Cardinals didn't have many running yards and the Harrison interception return was certainly crucial, but Warner completely carved you up for 3 touchdowns and 377 yards. That game ultimately came down to offense and which quarterback could get the final clutch play in. Luckily for the Steelers, Ben and Holmes had one of the most beautiful hookups in Super Bowl History. An incredible throw and a fantastic catch.

    The defense certainly shut the Seahawks down back Super Bowl 40, but both Warner and Rodgers completely carved you up in the latter two. On the whole, the Steelers defense has been less than stellar in the three recent Super Bowls they've played in.
    There's no doubt in SB43 and SB45 that those were two of the most explosive offenses that our defense has played in the past 7 seasons or so. Warner and that Cardinals team was red-hot, offensively, in the playoffs, scoring 34 in week #17 and then 30, 33, and 32 in the playoff games. So we kept them 9 points below their playoff average. They cut us a bit in the second half, but not the same way they carved up the Eagles (who also had a top-five defense that season) and Panthers earlier in the playoffs.

    I wouldn't totally discount the impact of that defense on the team's overall success based on the statistics of two games against two of the five or six best QBs of this century.

    And SB45 was Dom Capers v. Dick LeBeau - such a great matchup on the defensive side. Sure, the score was high and there were potent offenses on the field to shut down and Dom Capers version of the Blitzburgh-North got the takeaways just the way he, Dick and Cowher designed the defense to do twenty years ago.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  7. #206
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    There have been 3 total posts in this thread regarding the actual trade since the trade was confirmed. Pity.

  8. #207
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    This just wasn't the year to draft a QB. Trade down from #1 for as many lower first and second round picks as you can accumulate and draft offensive and defensive linemen. The Steelers also have had a lousy o-line, yet were able to pick up two guys (DeCastro, Adams) that "should" form the foundation of the line (along with Pouncey and Gibson selected over the past couple of years) long after Big Ben is gone. Solidify the lines first and address the "skills" positions second. Time will tell, but I think the team with DeCastro and Adams set themselves up better for success three-to-five years down the road regardless of who might be playing QB.



    Okay.



    I disagree. There are several that would start on the lines first and address the skills positions next. Football games are still won in the trenches.



    I wouldn't ever put a franchise QB behind a makeshift line. I'd fix the line first, and those are the "weapons" that Luck needs - not receivers. You need a very, very, very good QB. We agree on that. But a best-in-generation QB is not very valuable when he's on his back, or hearing footsteps, or on crutches, or has no one to hand the ball to, or barely has time to throw a quick-read pass.

    Thanks for engaging.

    There is more than one way to do build a team and the high-risk, high-reward stuff can bring about high rewards some of the time. Who would have ever thought, even in the year 2000, that we'd see a Colts-Saints Super Bowl? Two franchises with decades of poor management desperate for one of their franchise QBs to pan out. We have no idea who the Super Bowl contenders will be three years out. Many of you would argue that it will be the team with the best QB. I think it will be the team with the best lines, as the best OL can make a very, very, very good QB look like a great QB and an average line can make a superstar QB look average.


    Can anyone please explain to me what team would have traded the rights to the draft pick that happened to be the most nfl read prospect since John Elway and played the most important position on the field for a couple of picks to build around nothing???? This is the most irrelevent and idiotic arguement that has ever been argued...NO TEAM and I repeat NO TEAM would have passed on Andrew Luck or RGIII to try and build around nothing, I mean there is no guarantee that a halfway decent quarterback would even be available when your "rebuilding" process was over, then what? Hope Curtis Painter can lead us to a superbowl? Hell even a win? Please name one team who would have passed over Andrew Luck or RGIII that didnt already have a quarterback in place? And name just one success story that a team did this, just one that passed over a John Elway or Peyton Manning to build around a Curtis Painter?????

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  10. #208
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Ya, lol.... the best QB class in 30 years and possibly in history, and he says "it's not the year to draft a QB". Whoo-boy.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  12. #209
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Ya, lol.... the best QB class in 30 years and possibly in history, and he says "it's not the year to draft a QB". Whoo-boy.
    Yeah, because looking back to 30 years ago,

    Elway finally won a SuperBowl when the Broncos were Terrell Davis's team. He did get to a couple earlier in his career, getting his butt kicked in three of the biggest Super Bowl blowouts by Phil Simms, Doug Williams, and Joe Montana.

    Moving down the list,
    Todd Blackledge played in one playoff game in his career
    Jim Kelley did play and lose in four Super Bowls
    Tony Eason played in five playoffs games in his career and I'm sure he'd prefer nobody every talked about his 0-6 performance in Super Bowl XX
    Ken O'Brien was 0-3 in his playoff games
    And then there's the saga of Dan Marino. Got to the Super Bowl in his second season and was shredding the record books. But the Dolphins failed to build a team around him (so it does happen, look out!), and while he played in 18 playoff games in his career, a record of 8-10 is not what Dolphins fans would call a lot success for the dizzying numbers he put up.

    6 QBs, three Hall of Famers, a combined 2-11 record over 13 Super Bowls and would have been 0-11 if Terrell Davis wasn't the league's MVP and carried Elway to the Super Bowl with him.

    The class of 2004 has already vastly exceeded that.

    Eli and Ben are a combined 4-1 in Super Bowls and Schaub, Rivers, Eli and Ben are still leading teams that have been or are becoming consistent contenders for deep playoff runs.

    Its way too early to tell if the current draft class will be the best QB class of the last decade, but the legendary class of 1983 produced Hall of Famers but not many championships.

    And Matt Ryan and Joe Flacco are certainly poised to rep the class of 2008 over the next few seasons (but Flacco shouldn't count in this conversation since he was such a low first-rounder.) And 2005 is looking better since Alex Smith might be about to join the top-half of QBs in the league and Aaron Rogers is pretty darn impressive (but he shouldn't count in this conversation either).

    One other way to to look at this, the following historical drafts had QBs taken at both #1 and #2,

    1999, Couch and McNabb. Obviously Couch was Ouch, but McNabb's been pretty frustrating too
    1998, P. Manning and Leaf. What if the Colts goofed this up and took Leaf?
    1993, Bledsoe and Rick Mirer. Rick Mirer at #2? Oh boy.
    1971, Plunkett and A. Manning. There's the example you're looking for, 40+ years ago.

    PS, I've been waiting for someone to actually go back to 1970. You might have actually had something legit to call me on for that, can't believe nobody even tried. And if you try you don't get credit for it now. And while the Steelers did take Bradshaw #1 overall that year, there is something to be said for their 1969 draft as well as 1/2 of their Steel Curtain DL for all four Super Bowls (Mean Joe Greene and LC Greenwood, along with the starting LT for all four Super Bowls teams - Jon Kolb - were drafted the year before they drafted Terry. Foundation. But to say that QB was the Steelers biggest need in 1970 (coming off a combined three wins over two seasons) is to ignore the fact that QB was a big need for the Steelers in '69 when they drafted the foundation of the offensive line and 1/2 of the defensive line that led them to four Super Bowls.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  14. #210
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    To place Eli and Ben in the same category as Marino, Kelly, and Elway is some funny stuff. Sure they have more SBs, but they are not better quarterbacks, and whatever on Schaub and Rivers. Marino not having a SB is one of the big travesties in sports, he was an amazing QB.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  15. #211
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Chicago J has convinced me.... The world revolves around the Pittsburgh Steelers.....





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  17. #212
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Agree, Marino was a great one man team. Too bad the Dolphins couldn't give him anything to work with. You'd think, according you guys, that getting the rest of the team is the easy part but the Dolphins failed miserably at it.

    And it was the same management team that built the last undefeated Super Bowl champion, so you'd expect them to be able to repeat the formula that worked with Griese and the noname defense. Those guys were proven.

    Except in the late 80s through the 90s it was Marino and the notackle defense.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  19. #213
    Administrator/ The Real Jay ChicagoJ's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Chicago J has convinced me.... The world revolves around the Pittsburgh Steelers.....





    It has for my lifetime. Hey, when Old Man Irsay huffed and puffed his way into Indianapolis, I had no interest in changing the team I cheered for. We're on our second coach since that one, and both of them have SB wins. I'm not complaining.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NFL_sta...AFL-NFL_merger

    Sort by any metric you want, and I like the results.

    Our drafting of Hood, Heyward, Pouncy, Gilbert, DeCasto, Adams over the past three seasons means I'm not worried about what will happen when Ben's career winds down.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  20. #214
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Sort by any metric you want, and I like the results.
    That's why I'm mostly staying out of this debate!
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

    ------

    "A player who makes a team great is more valuable than a great player. Losing yourself in the group, for the good of the group, thatís teamwork."

    -John Wooden

  21. #215

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    I don't understand the debate as it relates to the Colts. The new GM has had one draft and no money for any free agents. He picked the best QB prospect since Manning and before him Elway at No. 1. Then he picked three pass catchers (one who can block) in rounds two and three.

    Also used next year's second-rounder for Vontae Davis.

    So that's five major decisions. How do you fully evaluate the strategy with only that much evidence?

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  23. #216

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Also, it's worth noting that only 23 players return from last year. It's impossible to turn over that much of the roster and make all the moves you want to make.

  24. #217

    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    PS, I've been waiting for someone to actually go back to 1970. You might have actually had something legit to call me on for that, can't believe nobody even tried. And if you try you don't get credit for it now. And while the Steelers did take Bradshaw #1 overall that year, there is something to be said for their 1969 draft as well as 1/2 of their Steel Curtain DL for all four Super Bowls (Mean Joe Greene and LC Greenwood, along with the starting LT for all four Super Bowls teams - Jon Kolb - were drafted the year before they drafted Terry. Foundation. But to say that QB was the Steelers biggest need in 1970 (coming off a combined three wins over two seasons) is to ignore the fact that QB was a big need for the Steelers in '69 when they drafted the foundation of the offensive line and 1/2 of the defensive line that led them to four Super Bowls.
    Meh.. Why try?

    Chicago J its no point to discuss this with you if you don't take into account how the league has changed since even the early 2000 to now. The QB is more important than it ever was in the past. Sure Plunkett got 2 superbowls but your bat crazy to think a guy like him (more INT's than TD's) would win 2 superbowls in todays league.

    Like Kraft said how you conclude anything from less than 6 months is beyond me.

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  26. #218
    THE WITCH IS DEAD!!! Coopdog23's Avatar
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Irsay really needs to stop tweeting. Freeney is getting old though, but he, Reggie Wayne, and Mathis need to retire as Colts
    Smothered Chicken!

  27. #219
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    Default Re: Another Colts Trade - Could be big - Irsay Tweet

    Anytime you can trade a consensus #1 pick for a guard, linebacker and fullback you gotta go for it.
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