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Thread: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

  1. #1001

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Let me say this, Ol'blue is right, RGIII is having a better rookie season than Andrew Luck, that being said QB's like RGIII are better suited to succeed from the beginning instead of Luck. Andrew Luck is similar to most other QB's in the NFL, a pocket passer and other teams D can prepare for him easier, RGIII however is much tougher to game plan for because you can't do what he does, you can put a Receiver in to play QB but he won't be able to throw like RGIII, you can put a QB in for him in practice, but he won't be able to run like RGIII, but the longer RGIII is in the NFL the more teams will understand how to stop him and how to beat him, I just think it will simply take longer until teams figure it out, now does that mean Andrew Luck is a bust? No. Far from it, how can any rookie QB throw for 1,674 yards, have 10 TD's and put a team that was supposed to be 3-13 at 3-3 through six games be a bust? Andrew Luck has exceeded expectations and so has RGIII, They will both turn into great QB's and i personally guarantee that
    Last edited by BlueCollarColts; 10-26-2012 at 01:48 PM.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    The one thing that concerns me about RGIII is his toughness. I have seen Luck take at least 4 massive shots, and he got right back up. RGIII got hit once, which was a mild hit compared to Luck, and had to leave the game. Whats going to happen when RG3 actually gets hit?
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Actually TOTAL QBR completely accounts for making the smart play. That is why scrambles that result in a first down are weighted so much vs. forcing a throw on that third down or a called running play.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    Let me say this, Ol'blue is right, RGIII is having a better rookie season than Andrew Luck, that being said QB's like RGIII are better suited to succeed from the beginning instead of Luck. Andrew Luck is similar to most other QB's in the NFL, a pocket passer and other teams D can prepare for him easier, RGIII however is much tougher to game plan for because you can't do what he does, you can put a Receiver in to play QB but he won't be able to throw like RGIII, you can put a QB in for him in practice, but he won't be able to run like RGIII, but the longer RGIII is in the NFL the more teams will understand how to stop him and how to beat him, I just think it will simply take longer until teams figure it out, now does that mean Andrew Luck is a bust? No. Far from it, how can any rookie QB throw for 1,674 yards, have 10 TD's and put a team that was supposed to be 3-13 at 3-3 through six games be a bust? Andrew Luck has exceeded expectations and so has RGIII, They will both turn into great QB's and i personally guarantee that
    IMO, this is one of the better posts I've seen on this topic. I think most informed people know Luck is going to be a great QB. RGIII needs to adjust his game to ensure he doesn't become Mr. Concussion as time goes on. If he accomplishes that and become a bit more traditional in his style, he could have a long successful career as well. But I don't believe he can keep running the ball without paying with more injuries, whether to the head or elsewhere.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    QBR comes a lot closer to putting performance into "context", which is somethign I'm always pushing on these forums. Stats don't mean jack if you don't know the context in which they were achieved. Completion percentage is subjective to many variables besides just people catching your throws a certain percentage of the time. We all know this by now; the offensive system, the strength of opponent's passing defense, the complimenting running game, etc...

    QBR tries to put stats into that context, which is why I appreciate it, even if it may not be "perfect". It's a lot closer than just plain ol' passer rating, imo.

    Well, it appears to me to be an "excuse" maker for a QB with bad stats. When EVERY posted poll lists RGIII at the top and Luck at the bottom, how can you continue to defend this stat? I'll go with the rating that SI uses and most newspapers and Yahoo Sports.... I appreciate your opinion but how wrong can you be? With any other team, Luck would have been benched already.... Do you think Shanahan would play him with those kinds of stats? Luck will be a coach killer and this staff will be gone in three or four years and we can start to rebuild all over again. Welcome to the good old days of Colts football.... PreManning....

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    The one thing that concerns me about RGIII is his toughness. I have seen Luck take at least 4 massive shots, and he got right back up. RGIII got hit once, which was a mild hit compared to Luck, and had to leave the game. Whats going to happen when RG3 actually gets hit?
    The concussions are his biggest obstacle to becoming a great QB with longevity. But avoiding them reduces his effectiveness, so it's a double edged sword. This is the main reason I think Luck is going to be the better QB down the road.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Actually TOTAL QBR completely accounts for making the smart play. That is why scrambles that result in a first down are weighted so much vs. forcing a throw on that third down or a called running play.
    Again, excuses to bolster a really bad QB. Any QB rating method that doesn't have RGIII, the Mannings, Brady and Aaron Rogers at the very top is Damn, that little SOB is really handy on this board...

  8. #1008

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    Let me say this, Ol'blue is right, RGIII is having a better rookie season than Andrew Luck, that being said QB's like RGIII are better suited to succeed from the beginning instead of Luck. Andrew Luck is similar to most other QB's in the NFL, a pocket passer and other teams D can prepare for him easier, RGIII however is much tougher to game plan for because you can't do what he does, you can put a Receiver in to play QB but he won't be able to throw like RGIII, you can put a QB in for him in practice, but he won't be able to run like RGIII, but the longer RGIII is in the NFL the more teams will understand how to stop him and how to beat him, I just think it will simply take longer until teams figure it out, now does that mean Andrew Luck is a bust? No. Far from it, how can any rookie QB throw for 1,674 yards, have 10 TD's and put a team that was supposed to be 3-13 at 3-3 through six games be a bust? Andrew Luck has exceeded expectations and so has RGIII, They will both turn into great QB's and i personally guarantee that
    Ol'blue you need to read this, I think it will explain some things to you

  9. #1009

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Also, Ol'blue what makes Luck a bad player other than his completion percentage? he has thrown for 1,674 yards and has scored 10 TD's so how can Luck be bad?

  10. #1010

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    Ol'blue you need to read this, I think it will explain some things to you
    He won't read it if it doesn't fit his argument. The other day he went on and on about how Irsay's record before Bill Polian was terrible until someone pointed out that Jim only owned the Colts for one season before Polian got here, and the Colts made the playoffs that season. The next day he was still spewing the same crap about how Irsay needed Polian to be successful.


    He's just a bitter old dude who wanted to see Manning win another ring here. Arguing with him is completely pointless.

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  12. #1011
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Is there a stat that accounts for a QB leaving a game after a routine hit?
    David "And One" West

  13. #1012
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    Let me say this, Ol'blue is right, RGIII is having a better rookie season than Andrew Luck, that being said QB's like RGIII are better suited to succeed from the beginning instead of Luck. Andrew Luck is similar to most other QB's in the NFL, a pocket passer and other teams D can prepare for him easier, RGIII however is much tougher to game plan for because you can't do what he does, you can put a Receiver in to play QB but he won't be able to throw like RGIII, you can put a QB in for him in practice, but he won't be able to run like RGIII, but the longer RGIII is in the NFL the more teams will understand how to stop him and how to beat him, I just think it will simply take longer until teams figure it out, now does that mean Andrew Luck is a bust? No. Far from it, how can any rookie QB throw for 1,674 yards, have 10 TD's and put a team that was supposed to be 3-13 at 3-3 through six games be a bust? Andrew Luck has exceeded expectations and so has RGIII, They will both turn into great QB's and i personally guarantee that
    [EDIT] Misunderstood, disregard.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 10-26-2012 at 03:06 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Again, excuses to bolster a really bad QB. Any QB rating method that doesn't have RGIII, the Mannings, Brady and Aaron Rogers at the very top is Damn, that little SOB is really handy on this board...
    Maybe RG3 isn't as good as you think. I love Rodgers, he's been a part of some epic losses this year which bring his value slightly down.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  15. #1014

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    After watching this game for two decades, I think the complete opposite of you. I find QBs like Manning and Luck become harder to gameplan against because their game is not based on athleticism. Athleticism is actually pretty easy to gameplan against these days. That's why you rarely see any "athletic" guys seeing much success in the playoffs. Playoff defenses can completely shut down the "electric" athletic guys. It's the pocket passers with an amazing understanding of defensive schemes and complete control of their offense that are able to push past playoff-level defenses. RG3's athleticism will be minimized in the playoffs.
    Well we completely disagree than, players like RGIII are very tough to game plan for at the beginning of their careers even harder than players like Andrew Luck. The other teams defense knows how Luck is going to beat them, he is going to throw the ball and beat him that way, same with Aaron Rodgers, Tom Brady, and Peyton Manning, the problem with these type of Qb's is that there really is no way to stop the way they play, players like RGIII, Cam Newton, and Michael Vick, are tougher to game plan for in the beginning look at the numbers in the beginning of their careers to what they are now, they speak for themselves, these kind of players tend to light it up in the beginning but as teams learn about them more they tend to be stopped

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Okay, I think I misunderstood your first post. I agree that pocket passers are easier to gameplan against early in their careers, just as athletic QBs are harder to gameplan against early on... but that reverses as the years go by.

    So ya we agree. My bad.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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  19. #1016

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Okay, I think I misunderstood your first post. I agree that pocket passers are easier to gameplan against early in their careers, just as athletic QBs are harder to gameplan against early on... but that reverses as the years go by.
    exactly what I was saying, Qb's like RGIII tend to have more success in the early years of their career instead of later on

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  21. #1017
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    After watching this game for two decades, I think the complete opposite of you. I find QBs like Manning and Luck become harder to gameplan against because their game is not based on athleticism. Athleticism is actually pretty easy to gameplan against these days. That's why you rarely see any "athletic" guys seeing much success in the playoffs. Playoff defenses can completely shut down the "electric" athletic guys. It's the pocket passers with an amazing understanding of defensive schemes and complete control of their offense that are able to push past playoff-level defenses. RG3's athleticism will be minimized in the playoffs.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueCollarColts View Post
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    exactly what I was saying, Qb's like RGIII tend to have more success in the early years of their career instead of later on
    Yep, completely agree. I think the argument *for* RG3 is that he's not as reliant on his athleticism as his "predecessors", as in he's intellectual enough to shift his game more to a pocket passer style game. And I agree with that to an extent, he probly won't experience a drop-off quite like Newton or Vick.... BUT.... I still don't quite see that he's reading defenses, controlling his offense quite like I'd like to see him doing. His game right now is still very much dependent on checking down to the dump-off receiver in hopes that the receiver will make a play, or he's taking off running with the ball.

    It's stuff like that that fire off red flags for me in trying to project his long-term growth. Those tactics certainly pile up stats *right now*, which is why he'll likely, and unfortunately, steal the ROY from Luck, but that stuff is voted on by people that don't look at stuff like that. They just get wide-eyed about yardage and completion %.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 10-26-2012 at 02:39 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Well, our sentiments regarding our bad O-line are mostly confirmed. We're 27th out of 32.

    https://www.profootballfocus.com/blo...line-rankings/
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    All in favor of an anti-OlBlu thread say I
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Is there a stat that accounts for a QB leaving a game after a routine hit?
    Is here astat for posters who repeat themselves over and over again, even if they are wrong?

    The concussion hit was a big hit, albeit one he could have avoided easily.

    He has also taken some other big shots and bounced back up fine and ready for the next play

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Need a winning record to make the playoffs

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    not always. Granted te ser is very you g

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  29. #1023

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    not always. Granted te ser is very you g
    What do you think the Redskins record will be? I have them sub .500 overall given the schedule takes a turn for the worse now.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    What do you think the Redskins record will be? I have them sub .500 overall given the schedule takes a turn for the worse now.
    7-9 but i am hoping 8-8.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Yep, completely agree. I think the argument *for* RG3 is that he's not as reliant on his athleticism as his "predecessors", as in he's intellectual enough to shift his game more to a pocket passer style game. And I agree with that to an extent, he probly won't experience a drop-off quite like Newton or Vick.... BUT.... I still don't quite see that he's reading defenses, controlling his offense quite like I'd like to see him doing. His game right now is still very much dependent on checking down to the dump-off receiver in hopes that the receiver will make a play, or he's taking off running with the ball.

    It's stuff like that that fire off red flags for me in trying to project his long-term growth. Those tactics certainly pile up stats *right now*, which is why he'll likely, and unfortunately, steal the ROY from Luck, but that stuff is voted on by people that don't look at stuff like that. They just get wide-eyed about yardage and completion %.
    All rookie QBs have those growing pains. Much like you guys said, athletic QBs are able to rely on their athleticism early on so they tend to have early success. Meanwhile pocket passers that lack the ability to run, scramble, and make plays, have nothing else to lean on except the mental part of the game. This is why most pocket passers have always been more consistent and better off in the long run than their mobile/athletic counterparts.

    There are however a number of mobile/athletic QBs who have been able to make the transition from running freelancer to downfield pocket passer. Guys like Culpepper, McNabb, McNair, Cunningham, Steve Young, were able to pick up on the mental aspect of the game and become pocket passers who also have the ability to scramble and make plays with their legs.

    I believe RGIII is in this category. If you look at the way he throws the ball downfield, his throwing motion, his accuracy, his touch, etcthis is a player who has taken the time to learn the proper mechanics to be a successful QB. Yes a lot of his passes are screen passes and dinks/dunks. But when he HAS thrown it down the field, he hasnt missed a ton (at least in the games I watched. I didnt watch the Falcons game)
    Does RGIII still need to work on reading defenses? Of course he does. Every rookie QB does.

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