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Thread: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Really? View Post
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    Oh yeah and RGIII is not a running QB, he is a passer with very good running ability.
    Great observation and he only ran once on Sunday and he was only sacked twice. Luck ran four times and was sacked four times and he was hit much harder than RGIII was. RGIII is not invincible but neither is one Andrew Luck. We will see the same thing happen to him, it just a matter of when, not if....... ...

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    OlBlu I think you have a serious concussion. Your prediction for yesterday was just a little..... well big time off.
    Yes, it was and I could not be more delighted that it was. It sure looked on the mark in the first half though didn't it? ...

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Great observation and he only ran once on Sunday and he was only sacked twice. Luck ran four times and was sacked four times and he was hit much harder than RGIII was. RGIII is not invincible but neither is one Andrew Luck. We will see the same thing happen to him, it just a matter of when, not if....... ...
    Luck actually slides, RG3 doesn't end of story
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    what happened today was only a matter of time. the NFL is no place for a running QB. Its a shame because RGIII is a darn good passer. I blame the Shannahans for their stubbornness thinking that they can re-create the Baylor offense in the NFL.
    Seriously, just let him throw.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    Luck actually slides, RG3 doesn't end of story
    See this isn't 100% true though either, Luck dove forward on the 3rd down play and the TD run against GB. Now under those circumstances we probably would all do the same, but I'm just saying it could happen. RGIII yesterday though proabbly should have just gone out of bounds.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Great observation and he only ran once on Sunday and he was only sacked twice. Luck ran four times and was sacked four times and he was hit much harder than RGIII was. RGIII is not invincible but neither is one Andrew Luck. We will see the same thing happen to him, it just a matter of when, not if....... ...
    Today was the first time that Luck was sacked more times than Griffin. And Griffin only played half of the game. I definitely think that Griffin has gotten hit more than Luck has so far this season. I think RGIII needs to bulk up 10-15 more pounds in order to stay away from the lil injuries that a guy like Mike Vick has endured throughout a lot of his career.

    Obviously no matter how big you are, the more hits you take, the more likely you are to have nagging injuries (see Rothlisberger, Ben) but I'd think that a few extra pounds of muscle should help some.

    Honestly, both rookie QB's are taking a bit of a pounding so far this season. But to be honest, with defenses keying on hitting the QB nowadays, the days of "keeping the QB clean" are over. Guys like Brady, Manning, and Rodgers took some vicious hits in the pocket yesterday. It's just something thats a part of the game now.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Is anyone in the media or NFL hierarchy questioning Luck's arm at this point? With 4 games worth of evidence you'd think if there were question marks it would be mentioned by commentators, competitors, etc....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Today was the first time that Luck was sacked more times than Griffin. And Griffin only played half of the game. I definitely think that Griffin has gotten hit more than Luck has so far this season. I think RGIII needs to bulk up 10-15 more pounds in order to stay away from the lil injuries that a guy like Mike Vick has endured throughout a lot of his career.

    Obviously no matter how big you are, the more hits you take, the more likely you are to have nagging injuries (see Rothlisberger, Ben) but I'd think that a few extra pounds of muscle should help some.

    Honestly, both rookie QB's are taking a bit of a pounding so far this season. But to be honest, with defenses keying on hitting the QB nowadays, the days of "keeping the QB clean" are over. Guys like Brady, Manning, and Rodgers took some vicious hits in the pocket yesterday. It's just something thats a part of the game now.
    Exactly, we are talking about the NFL, running or not running a QB can get hit and be out of the game at anytime, that hit Luck took yesterday would have probably take him out the game and maybe the whole week he was just lucky enough that he didn't get hurt.

    I don't get the RG3 hate around here, some of you are proving what I've been saying forever that Irsay was smart enough to bring Luck here because Indiana is still not ready for a QB like RG3, I like both guys and I'm rooting for both of them and I don't see a reason for people not to do the same.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Exactly, we are talking about the NFL, running or not running a QB can get hit and be out of the game at anytime, that hit Luck took yesterday would have probably take him out the game and maybe the whole week he was just lucky enough that he didn't get hurt.

    I don't get the RG3 hate around here, some of you are proving what I've been saying forever that Irsay was smart enough to bring Luck here because Indiana is still not ready for a QB like RG3, I like both guys and I'm rooting for both of them and I don't see a reason for people not to do the same.
    I don't think anyone here hates RG3. It may just seem that way because olblu has been harping all offseason about how great RG3 is and how Luck will get hit more and not make it through the season.

    So there's quite a bit of "I told you so" when it continues to be proven that olblu is dead wrong and is shown to be an unrealistic troll that has no clue.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Today was the first time that Luck was sacked more times than Griffin. And Griffin only played half of the game. I definitely think that Griffin has gotten hit more than Luck has so far this season. I think RGIII needs to bulk up 10-15 more pounds in order to stay away from the lil injuries that a guy like Mike Vick has endured throughout a lot of his career.

    Obviously no matter how big you are, the more hits you take, the more likely you are to have nagging injuries (see Rothlisberger, Ben) but I'd think that a few extra pounds of muscle should help some.

    Honestly, both rookie QB's are taking a bit of a pounding so far this season. But to be honest, with defenses keying on hitting the QB nowadays, the days of "keeping the QB clean" are over. Guys like Brady, Manning, and Rodgers took some vicious hits in the pocket yesterday. It's just something thats a part of the game now.
    I think you guys are missing the point. ITs the type of hits a QB takes that matters and not all hits are the same.

    Of course we know that but the NFL protects pocket passers much more than a QB who takes off and runs. RG3 got hurt because he was trying to do too much too early on in a game. This shows his inexperience and he got burned for it.

    Contrast that to Andrew Luck and most of his runs were in the second half when he was trying to win the game. When Luck split the LB's for a first down he did so with correct angle that didn't put his head out there to get hurt. He got sandwiched but the LBS were on their heels and didn't have the ability to generate a significant impact.

    The one unnecessary roughness hit was a hit to the arm then to the head. Maybe it shouldn't have been called but the impact was mostly to Lucks sternum.

    The big difference is knowing when to run and when not to and RG3 is behind on the curve here. He even says he won't change his style and it appears that the Redskins don't plan to change it either which is the problem.

    Adding weight won't protect your noodle see Aaron Rodgers in 2010 agaisnt the Lions. You simply have to slide more or throw the ball away.

    Edit: Lucks run in the 4th.. He uses the Ref to gain the angle to split the defenders at the 1:36 mark.

    http://www.nfl.com/gamecenter/201210...enu=highlights
    Last edited by Gamble1; 10-08-2012 at 11:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Exactly, we are talking about the NFL, running or not running a QB can get hit and be out of the game at anytime, that hit Luck took yesterday would have probably take him out the game and maybe the whole week he was just lucky enough that he didn't get hurt.

    I don't get the RG3 hate around here, some of you are proving what I've been saying forever that Irsay was smart enough to bring Luck here because Indiana is still not ready for a QB like RG3, I like both guys and I'm rooting for both of them and I don't see a reason for people not to do the same.
    Luck was the consensus 1st pick. He'd been the 1st pick a year earlier even. RG3 came late to the table but no matter who was choosing first, Luck would've likely been the 1st pick. If RG3 would've been Indy's pick the fans would've been just as much behind him as they are Luck. And they probably would be complaining if RG3 was running and getting hit rather than hardly running at all, sliding, and playing it safe and going out of bounds rather than getting the last yard. History has shown that stuff gets your QB banged up and on the bench.

    Add to that Luck and RG3 were picks 1 and 2 in the same draft.

    Add to that Ol Blu's constant cheerleading for RG3 vs Luck and you have Indy fans paying more attention to the Redskins than they normally would. I don't think it's to knock RG3 though and I don't think it's fair to say Indy isn't ready for a QB like RG3.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Yes, it was and I could not be more delighted that it was. It sure looked on the mark in the first half though didn't it? ...
    never really did
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Is anyone in the media or NFL hierarchy questioning Luck's arm at this point? With 4 games worth of evidence you'd think if there were question marks it would be mentioned by commentators, competitors, etc....
    Well, the Colts have been off for two weeks, so there was bound to be less talk, and also it is pretty hard to comment negatively on a rookie that just won a big game against arguably one of the best teams in the NFL.

    My take is he has enough are strength but his judgement on deep passes has to improve, specifically on how much air to put under the ball and how far he should throw it, it is all about timing, and it will improve as he builds relationships with the receivers. A prime example of this is the deep pass that he threw to Avery this week, in previous games he has under thrown him, this game he made a good adjustment, but should have put a little bit more air under the ball, since he didn't he barely over threw an out stretched Avery.

    It will be so interesting seeing where he is by the end of the season.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Like I've been saying though, deep balls are a ****** indication of arm strength. Luck's arm is unbelievable in the spots where arm strength actually matters, on the run, against pressure, throwing out routes, he does all these brilliantly and with very little time to set his feet.

    RGIII has a "bigger" arm, slightly (I've said this all along), but right now he does not have the in pocket moxy to back it up. RGIII may be faster, but right now he doesn't pick his spots the way Luck does. Games are not won in the first and second and third quarters, but with the way RGIII plays you would think they are. He may be a walking highlight reel, but unless RGIII changes the way he plays the game, he's going to be remembered more for his highlights than his wins. RGIII has grabbed all the headlines, but Luck has the better record and is making his team more competitive. ESPN was talking about how RGIII needs to learn how to win. Luck doesn't need to do that, he knows how. You just need to get some of the other youth on the Colts to make that transition and Sunday looked like a step in that direction.

    RGIII and Luck will both be great QBs, much better than Cam Newton, but Sunday proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Luck is much further down that path.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Like I've been saying though, deep balls are a ****** indication of arm strength. Luck's arm is unbelievable in the spots where arm strength actually matters, on the run, against pressure, throwing out routes, he does all these brilliantly and with very little time to set his feet.

    RGIII has a "bigger" arm, slightly (I've said this all along), but right now he does not have the in pocket moxy to back it up. RGIII may be faster, but right now he doesn't pick his spots the way Luck does. Games are not won in the first and second and third quarters, but with the way RGIII plays you would think they are. He may be a walking highlight reel, but unless RGIII changes the way he plays the game, he's going to be remembered more for his highlights than his wins. RGIII has grabbed all the headlines, but Luck has the better record and is making his team more competitive. ESPN was talking about how RGIII needs to learn how to win. Luck doesn't need to do that, he knows how. You just need to get some of the other youth on the Colts to make that transition and Sunday looked like a step in that direction.

    RGIII and Luck will both be great QBs, much better than Cam Newton, but Sunday proved, beyond a shadow of a doubt that Luck is much further down that path.
    With Lucks passing, he has also had trouble on out routes at times as far as arm strength is concerned, but he has gotten better at that as well. One of the things I notice is that when he sees a guy that is wide open, he tends less than enough velocity behind the ball, it is like he wants to make sure that he makes it an easy catch. This is good in some situations because it increases the likelihood that a player will catch the ball, but on the other hand, the player typically does not have as much time to run after the catch, especially with the speed of the defenses.

    I also would not say that Griffin does not know how to win, he has seemed to fair pretty well in pressure, and has lost a lot of close games so far this year, but you also have to remember that his teams pass defense is 31st in the league in regards to yards, that is definitely a hindrance in close games.

    In regards to his record vs Luck, he only has one more loss, but he has also played one more game, so I would not really read much into that. Also when he got hurt the score was 7-7 and he was putting together a drive in the redzone to give them the lead, who knows what happens in a close game if he is still in.

    I also agree that both QB's will be very good, not giving both the great part yet, but I would not rule out Cam Newton, he is in critical period of his career right now, and will need to learn how to overcome his weaknesses and adversity to pull through and win games, still only his second year in the league.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Really? View Post
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    With Lucks passing, he has also had trouble on out routes at times as far as arm strength is concerned, but he has gotten better at that as well. One of the things I notice is that when he sees a guy that is wide open, he tends less than enough velocity behind the ball, it is like he wants to make sure that he makes it an easy catch. This is good in some situations because it increases the likelihood that a player will catch the ball, but on the other hand, the player typically does not have as much time to run after the catch, especially with the speed of the defenses.

    I also would not say that Griffin does not know how to win, he has seemed to fair pretty well in pressure, and has lost a lot of close games so far this year, but you also have to remember that his teams pass defense is 31st in the league in regards to yards, that is definitely a hindrance in close games.

    In regards to his record vs Luck, he only has one more loss, but he has also played one more game, so I would not really read much into that. Also when he got hurt the score was 7-7 and he was putting together a drive in the redzone to give them the lead, who knows what happens in a close game if he is still in.

    I also agree that both QB's will be very good, not giving both the great part yet, but I would not rule out Cam Newton, he is in critical period of his career right now, and will need to learn how to overcome his weaknesses and adversity to pull through and win games, still only his second year in the league.
    The score was 7-7 on a Matt Ryan pick 6 so I wouldn't notch a feather in RG3 cap for that.

    I said this early RG3 has yet to win a game against a decent pass rush and pass defense. This to me isn't suprising at all because he is a rookie but we all need to see growth against teams that actually have a good defense. The same can be said of Luck but he did go against a Vikings team that is underrated IMO and of course the good thing is that RG3 will have to face that same team if he is healthy so atleast a comparable comparsion can be made here.

    Luck has a better defense and RG3 has a top notch rushing attack. Both help to win games so IMO its kind of a wash.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    The score was 7-7 on a Matt Ryan pick 6 so I wouldn't notch a feather in RG3 cap for that.

    I said this early RG3 has yet to win a game against a decent pass rush and pass defense. This to me isn't suprising at all because he is a rookie but we all need to see growth against teams that actually have a good defense. The same can be said of Luck but he did go against a Vikings team that is underrated IMO and of course the good thing is that RG3 will have to face that same team if he is healthy so atleast a comparable comparsion can be made here.

    Luck has a better defense and RG3 has a top notch rushing attack. Both help to win games so IMO its kind of a wash.
    True about the pick 6, but they were on the 10 about to score when he got hurt, that is more along the lines I was talking about.

    Also to me football is a team sport, you win and lose as a team, it is true that some players contribute more than others, but everything in football is situational, we could have easily lost that game yesterday if our guys would not have stepped up, just like Redskins could have won games if certain plays went their way. Basically I am not considering anything a wash but all I will say is that both guys have talent and both need to develop in various areas.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    The score was 7-7 on a Matt Ryan pick 6 so I wouldn't notch a feather in RG3 cap for that.

    I said this early RG3 has yet to win a game against a decent pass rush and pass defense. This to me isn't suprising at all because he is a rookie but we all need to see growth against teams that actually have a good defense. The same can be said of Luck but he did go against a Vikings team that is underrated IMO and of course the good thing is that RG3 will have to face that same team if he is healthy so atleast a comparable comparsion can be made here.

    Luck has a better defense and RG3 has a top notch rushing attack. Both help to win games so IMO its kind of a wash
    .
    As bad as the Redskins defense is, I wouldn't say the Colts defense is BETTER.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Just last week, RGIII led his team down the field for a game winning drive.

    I just don't see how people think there's a large difference in who's better--on either end. These guys are 4 and 5 games into their careers. RGIII has put up better numbers, but he also has a better team top to bottom. Luck has impressed in other ways, and has shown great poise and leadership in 4th quarters.

    Both guys are good and well on their way to being very good in this league, but I guess I just don't see a gap in talent, ability to win, etc between the two players.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Exactly, we are talking about the NFL, running or not running a QB can get hit and be out of the game at anytime, that hit Luck took yesterday would have probably take him out the game and maybe the whole week he was just lucky enough that he didn't get hurt.

    I don't get the RG3 hate around here, some of you are proving what I've been saying forever that Irsay was smart enough to bring Luck here because Indiana is still not ready for a QB like RG3, I like both guys and I'm rooting for both of them and I don't see a reason for people not to do the same.
    Its the inevitable Luck vs. RG3 thread. Obviously people want the franchise to have made the right decision and therefore are rooting for our guy. Your "people are not ready for" comment is damn near treading the line of offensive. If it meant what it seems to you just crossed a line, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    As bad as the Redskins defense is, I wouldn't say the Colts defense is BETTER.
    Let me argue the point then.

    The Colts defense is better since they have faced better opponents and have given up less points per game than the Redskins. I especially think this is true since the Colts are -4 on the turn over differential and the Redskins are +7. Thats normally not a good indicator of how a defense is performing but despite that fact the Colts have allowed less points.

    Do they still suck at stopping the run? Sure but they are a 100 yards better per game at stopping the pass when compared to the Redskins which is what makes them better overall IMO.

    In any case I think Luck is performing at a higher more mature level than RG3 and this can be seen in third down conversions. Luck is tied at 10th with 42% and RG3 is last in the NFL 32nd at 23%. THey both have seen over 60 3rd downs and that too big of a differential to ignore IMO. Maybe Garcon being hurt is a reason but that shouldn't put someone dead last in the NFL.

    IF anything RG3 should have a better conversion rate since his running game should give him less 3rd and longs which are typically harder to convert.

    So what do we have with RG3 and Luck? Well I would argue despite olblu's post is that we have exactly what we thought we had in both of them. One being a more mature player and the other being a more dynamic athlete who still has a lot to learn.

    FWIW I think Luck needs to learn alot but I think he has proven that he understands the game much better than RG3 at this point.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 10-08-2012 at 06:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    Its the inevitable Luck vs. RG3 thread. Obviously people want the franchise to have made the right decision and therefore are rooting for our guy. Your "people are not ready for" comment is damn near treading the line of offensive. If it meant what it seems to you just crossed a line, but I will give you the benefit of the doubt.
    He didn't say "people"..unless I misread...

    He said INDIANA isn't ready for a QB like RGIII. Perhaps he meant the fact that Indiana is more of a traditionalist state--especially in sports.

    For example, most Pacer fans have been clamoring for a "true PG" for years now when a "true PG" hardly even exists within the game anymore.

    The same could be said for football. We've seen Peyton Manning--the ULTIMATE "traditional QB" do his thing for years. If you polled most posters within PD, or most fans in the state, most individuals would clamor for a more traditional QB like Andrew Luck, as opposed to a running QB like Griffin.

    I don't think Vnzla was too far from the truth, but to insinuate that he tried to make this into a completely different issue is not only wrong but brings to question why one would even assume that's what he meant. (especially because he didn't even use the term that you quoted)

    Just my two cents....

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  32. #248
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    Let me argue the point then.

    The Colts defense is better since they have faced better opponents and have given up less points per game than the Redskins. I especially think this is true since the Colts are -4 on the turn over differential and the Redskins are +7. Thats normally not a good indicator of how a defense is performing but despite that fact the Colts have allowed less points.

    Do they still suck at stopping the run? Sure but they are a 100 yards better per game at stopping the pass when compared to the Redskins which is what makes them better overall IMO.

    In any case I think Luck is performing at a higher more mature level than RG3 and this can be seen in third down conversions. Luck is tied at 10th with 42% and RG3 is last in the NFL 32nd at 23%. THey both have seen over 60 3rd downs and that too big of a differential to ignore IMO. Maybe Garcon being hurt is a reason but that shouldn't put someone dead last in the NFL.

    IF anything RG3 should have a better conversion rate since his running game should give him less 3rd and longs which are typically harder to convert.

    So what do we have with RG3 and Luck? Well I would argue despite olblu's post is that we have exactly what we thought we had in both of them. One being a more mature player and the other being a more dynamic athlete who still has a lot to learn.

    FWIW I think Luck needs to learn alot but I think he has proven that he understands the game much better than RG3 at this point.
    There are plenty of stats that can turn the discussion one way or another. Sure you could use 3rd down conversion %, QBR and success within a two minute drill to show that Luck is better; but you could use turnovers, QB rating, and yards per attempt to show that RGIII is better.

    Both QB's have led game winning drives in the 4th QTR. Both guys have taken hellacious hits. (though it was AWESOME for Luck to get up and wink at Jerry after he got DRILLED--and bailed out by a lucky unnecessary roughness penalty) and both guys have impressed.

    I don't want my critical eye to be taken wrongly. I think Luck is VERY good. If i had to choose between the two, I'd choose Luck just because of his moxy and maturity. (he is the ANTI Diva) I just don't think it's as clear cut that Luck is the best and RGIII is just an athlete.

  33. #249
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    I misquoted but who cares. Is Indiana not a group of people. Are you insinuating the corn is unprepared? Wtf

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    I misquoted but who cares. Is Indiana not a group of people. Are you insinuating the corn is unprepared? Wtf

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    LMAO! My point was that I'm sure he didn't mean it the way you took it. Thats all

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