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Thread: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

  1. #1601

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    But RG3 is clutch, completes 12% more of his passes, throws the same number of TD passes, while Luck throws more than 4 times as many INTs, on passes that average fewer yards per attempt, and RG's passer rating is a whopping 30 points higher.

    I'd prefer Luck, to be honest, but to suggest that both of these guys don't show franchise QB ability is crazy. Luck has to greatly improve on accuracy and decision-making with regard to forcing throws, while RG3 needs to greatly improve on decision-making with regard to protecting himself from injury. Neither skill set is easy to learn, but both are doable.
    I thought this when both guys entered the draft. Luck had to learn a system that wasn't a dink and dunk west coast style and RG3 injury concerns were going to be a problem.

    RG3 still needs to learn a different system to be effective IMo. He simply won't be able to run this east coast offense and stay healthy for an entire year.

  2. #1602
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    What, is there a limit of freak injruies to happen to a player now

    I dont even think he was hurt of the helicoptor, but those first two were stupid. I dont think there was anything freak about the concussion.

    This play was very freak, but I agree if he was running less there would be less chances for this to happen.

    Like I said, though, it looks like he got hurt on a scramble. Not a option or whatever the hell they call that play
    Miiiiiiiiiiiiiissed the point entirely.

    Freak plays happen once in your career, if that. Freak plays don't occur 3 times (or more) in a 13 game span. At that point, it's no longer "freak". It's what I've always said about the kid -- he tries to be hero, which pushes him beyond his means, and then he puts himself in positions to get absolutely jacked. Almost *always* on plays where he decides he's going to put his blazing speed on display. I get both excited AND fearful every time he takes off running. It is fun to see him run. He has this horrible tendency, however, to try to do something stupid at the end of the run... jump over 3 guys.... not slide 5 yards prior to where he *should* have to avoid getting creamed by 3 guys at once. He doesn't know how to recognize *when* to slide. Sliding doesn't even seem part of his skillset. He just lets the hits come. And he's not a huge guy. The guy gets hit the most spectacular ways possible because 1) he puts himself in those positions 2) he's not a big guy.

    There is absolutely zero need for a quarterback to be doing what he's doing at the end of his run plays. And he pays for it, and eventually he's going to miss time... maybe a lot. He's lucky as hell his leg wasn't broken in half on that play.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    I thought this when both guys entered the draft. Luck had to learn a system that wasn't a dink and dunk west coast style and RG3 injury concerns were going to be a problem.

    RG3 still needs to learn a different system to be effective IMo. He simply won't be able to run this east coast offense and stay healthy for an entire year.
    I agree with you about RG3. Not sure what you mean by east coast offense, though... if anything they run some sort of college spread/option/west coast dink-dunk hybrid.

    However... Luck is the exact *opposite* of dink and dunk west coast style, at both Stanford, and for Indy. Not sure where you got that. He makes more long completions down field than many in recent memory. I'm not exactly sure what Indy's offensive scheme qualifies as.... maybe vertical? Air Coryell?
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 12-10-2012 at 12:45 PM.
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  6. #1604

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I agree with you about RG3. Not sure what you mean by east coast offense, though... if anything they run some sort of college spread/option/west coast dink-dunk hybrid.

    However... Luck is the exact *opposite* of dink and dunk west coast style, at both Stanford, and for Indy. Not sure where you got that. He makes more long completions down field than many in recent memory. I'm not exactly sure what Indy's offensive scheme qualifies as.... maybe vertical? Air Coryell?
    East coast offense is what the coach said he called it although he was just tired of reporters asking about it so he gave it a name (east coast offense).

  7. #1605
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    No, I am 100% point blank correct.

    General or not, Snyder has had his had to run the franchise. He failed. Miserably. We were the butt of many jokes. Point blank, we sucked.

    He hired Allen, then Shanny. Guys who are football guys. Sure, he can offer some suggestions, but using your quote "The owner of the team ought to do RG a favor and use him like a regular QB" that is the old Dan Snyder. The one who failed. Numerous times.

    The irony is he started meeting with Shanny once a week (Sunday night) after the Giants loss a few weeks ago. That is overstepping his bounds IMO, so short of telling Bruce and Mike "I want him protected more, please look into it" I would prefer he got sit down and let the pros do what they get paid for.

    Cause yes, it if his investment. But if is also the coaches and front officers investment.

    Time will tell if the current method in regards to RG3 will fail him also. Still sounds like an owner problem today.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Luck is better, okay. This shouldn't be a question. Look at both of their attempts per game. Luck throws for almost 50 times A GAME. RG3 maybe throws for a bout 15-20. RG3 relies on his running backs to rush for 100+ yards, so he can fake the defense in the read option. If they play a team like San Francisco or New England, they will be screwed, because their running game will not exist and RG3 will be sacked all day, and throw 30 times and complete maybe 40% of them. The majority of his passes are barely over 5 yards. If Arians' offense featured more of those, Luck would have an incredible completion percentage and QB rating. Luck runs an aggressive, risk taking offense, and RG3 doesn't. Luck > RG3
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  9. #1607

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    Luck throws for almost 50 times A GAME.
    41

    RG3 maybe throws about 15-20.
    27


    (against top teams) RG3 will be sacked all day, and throw 30 times and complete maybe 40% of them.
    He averages 27 throws against everyone, and completes 66.4 % of them. That they are indeed lower risk, higher percentage passes should make him no more mistake-prone against even the good defenses. Avoiding stupid negative plays is an important and too often overlooked QB skill.

    Hey, I'd prefer to have Luck too, but I just don't see the need to bash RG3 especially when to do so involves twisting around some of the basic facts. They are both very promising rookies.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 12-13-2012 at 01:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    That they are indeed lower risk, higher percentage passes should make him no more mistake-prone against even the good defenses. Avoiding stupid negative plays is an important and too often overlooked QB skill.
    Just to jump in... I'm not an RG3 "basher". But the bolded part of your sentence has tremendous bearing on the rest of your sentence. You're absolutely right that the defense has no bearing --- because the offense has been designed that way. It's there to eliminate opportunites for the QB to make mistakes, while still progressing the ball forward. It's a nifty offense.

    But it's the opposite of what Luck is running. And that's why you see the discrepancies in Luck's and RG3's stats. As long as RG3 runs that spread/option/westcoast hybrid offense, he'll have low interceptions and high passing % and rating. Stick him in Luck's offense, and you'll see all that drop. That's sort of the knock on RG3 --- he's running a very simple, college-style offense. Simple works... for awhile. A difference of almost 15 passing attempts per game is actually pretty massive on a number of fronts. It means they are running it way more... the defense can't throw a million guys in coverage, and thus it's easier for Rob to get his passes off downfield. But they 'Skins don't run a pure west coast offense... they run some sort of hybrid of westcoast, option, spread... and he's getting out on a lot of designed run plays or option scrambles with near distrastrous outcomes. RG3 is running something that a lot of people have long-term doubts about, because they know what happens to players and offenses like his. It actually reminds me a LOT of Vick's Falcons when he first entered the league and Vick took the league by storm. And there's no concrete evidence that it's a superior offensive scheme... they have a worse record while he's piled up those gawdy INT and % numbers. They may not make the playoffs. They had a better team going into the season. Once the losses started coming for the 'Skins and the wins came in for the Colts, that all completely shifted in the media's eyes --- "Oh the Colts weren't as bad as we thought". Bullsh*t. They are exactly what we said they were --- a hodgepodge grouping of mediocre players being lifted up by the best quarterback prospect in decades to enter a "quarterback's league".

    Just a lot of questionmarks... at least from myself. It's not just emotional bashing. It's me knowing what I know about football, and observing the two systems and recognizing what's actually going on.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 12-13-2012 at 02:14 PM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  11. #1609

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    I'd agree that Shanahan's system gives RG3 a chance to complete a high percentage, avoid turnovers, and get a high passer rating, but focusing on it seems to imply that other QBs Washington could plug in there would have a similar advantage. I don't think many QBs could take RG3's spot and do nearly as well. Like you, I also have doubts as to whether the spread/option facets of the Washington offense will last, in terms of effectiveness and in terms of keeping the QB healthy. I'd bet that a focus of the Washington offseason will be to move a bit away from that and add the type of receiving threats necessary to do so.

    I don't think that you are an RG3 basher and didn't mean to imply that everyone posting here is either, but seeing people say things like he would only complete 40% of his passes vs. a good team is just silly and should be challenged IMO. Basically I see no need to try to make Luck look better by taking down RG3 using exaggerated stats (again, not something that you did, but it was the poster I was responding to above).
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    41



    27




    He averages 27 throws against everyone, and completes 66.4 % of them. That they are indeed lower risk, higher percentage passes should make him no more mistake-prone against even the good defenses. Avoiding stupid negative plays is an important and too often overlooked QB skill.

    Hey, I'd prefer to have Luck too, but I just don't see the need to bash RG3 especially when to do so involves twisting around some of the basic facts. They are both very promising rookies.
    I like RG3, but I'm tired of everybody and I mean everybody making such a big deal about RG3, when he doesn't take as many risks as Luck does. Peyton threw 26 INTs as a rookie and look at him now. I think Luck is better now and always will be better than RG3
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Honestly, the media love fest between Luck and RGIII is pretty even at this point.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    I like RG3, but I'm tired of everybody and I mean everybody making such a big deal about RG3, when he doesn't take as many risks as Luck does. Peyton threw 26 INTs as a rookie and look at him now. I think Luck is better now and always will be better than RG3
    And Tom Brady threw 12 INT's is rookie year. What's the point? The number of INT's simply means Luck is taking a number of unnecessary chances that RGIII isn't. One could easily argue that Luck is better, but the fact that he takes unnecessary chances many times throughout the game isn't a reason to say that he's better.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Just to jump in... I'm not an RG3 "basher". But the bolded part of your sentence has tremendous bearing on the rest of your sentence. You're absolutely right that the defense has no bearing --- because the offense has been designed that way. It's there to eliminate opportunites for the QB to make mistakes, while still progressing the ball forward. It's a nifty offense.

    But it's the opposite of what Luck is running. And that's why you see the discrepancies in Luck's and RG3's stats. As long as RG3 runs that spread/option/westcoast hybrid offense, he'll have low interceptions and high passing % and rating. Stick him in Luck's offense, and you'll see all that drop. That's sort of the knock on RG3 --- he's running a very simple, college-style offense. Simple works... for awhile. A difference of almost 15 passing attempts per game is actually pretty massive on a number of fronts. It means they are running it way more... the defense can't throw a million guys in coverage, and thus it's easier for Rob to get his passes off downfield. But they 'Skins don't run a pure west coast offense... they run some sort of hybrid of westcoast, option, spread... and he's getting out on a lot of designed run plays or option scrambles with near distrastrous outcomes. RG3 is running something that a lot of people have long-term doubts about, because they know what happens to players and offenses like his. It actually reminds me a LOT of Vick's Falcons when he first entered the league and Vick took the league by storm. And there's no concrete evidence that it's a superior offensive scheme... they have a worse record while he's piled up those gawdy INT and % numbers. They may not make the playoffs. They had a better team going into the season. Once the losses started coming for the 'Skins and the wins came in for the Colts, that all completely shifted in the media's eyes --- "Oh the Colts weren't as bad as we thought". Bullsh*t. They are exactly what we said they were --- a hodgepodge grouping of mediocre players being lifted up by the best quarterback prospect in decades to enter a "quarterback's league".

    Just a lot of questionmarks... at least from myself. It's not just emotional bashing. It's me knowing what I know about football, and observing the two systems and recognizing what's actually going on.
    Just a few things from this post:

    1. Their offense is somewhat similar to what they ran in ATL with the exception that RGIII has 3 options downfield (RB, one receiver that's short, and one that's intermediate to deep--most times) whereas ATL's offense was two reads and that's all. Also, even though Vick was "taking the league by storm" he still was only completing 55% of his passes, while throwing for a tad under 3,000 yds (pretty good for 1st yr starter back then) and had an 16/8 TD:INT ratio. You can compare the two, but RGIII is light years ahead of Vick (already has 2,900 yds, 18td and only 4 INT) during his first season as a starter (though it's also more of a QB league than it was then)

    2. Yes the redskins had a better team, but they have dealt with injuries to key players, much like the Colts. Garcon has been out a lot of the yr, Brian Orakpo has been out for most of the yr, Carriker has been out, their secondary (much like ours) has been depleted. So while they were a better team going into the season, it's not as if the Skins were even close to a .500 team last year. They were 3 games better than us

    3. The skins have also faced a much tougher record than the colts have. The Colts have only played 4 teams with a winning record this year(2-2). The skins have defeated played 9 (5-4) So even though we have a better record, we haven't had as easy of a schedule to do so. (though I'm a big believer in you can only play the games that are on your schedule)

    As far as who will be the better QB in the future, NFL history would suggest the more traditional QB would have the advantage 99% of the time. So because of this, I def think that Luck will be better. But I could see how one would believe that RGIII has had a more impressive rookie year thus far.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    And Tom Brady threw 12 INT's is rookie year. What's the point? The number of INT's simply means Luck is taking a number of unnecessary chances that RGIII isn't. One could easily argue that Luck is better, but the fact that he takes unnecessary chances many times throughout the game isn't a reason to say that he's better.
    No this is saying that Luck is trying harder to win and he's relied on more to win games than RG3
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    Hey, I'd prefer to have Luck too, but I just don't see the need to bash RG3 especially when to do so involves twisting around some of the basic facts. They are both very promising rookies.
    I agree with this. RGIII is a helluva player and you can't take anything away from what what he's accomplished this season. The rookie seasons of Luck and RGIII will always be remembered. There's no reason to spite one just so you can prop up the other. I don't think that most people here have anything against RGIII per se. But having RGIII inserted into every Luck thread from April to November (you know what I'm talking about) probably predisposed people here to root against RGIII so that they could "spike the ball" so to speak. I don't think most people here have anything against him though and he probably wouldn't be brought up as much here if he hadn't been inserted into every thread for six straight months.

    This is looking waaaaaaaaay head, but the Skins are scheduled to come to Indy in 2014. Both will be in their third year by then and will have some solid experience under their belt. There will be some exciting hype. Next year we have Peyton coming into town and the year after RGIII. Nationally televised games are returning to Indy after a brief hiatus.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 12-14-2012 at 09:57 PM.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    No this is saying that Luck is trying harder to win and he's relied on more to win games than RG3
    Relied upon more often to win games maybe. Trying harder to win games? Not in the least bit.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Relied upon more often to win games maybe. Trying harder to win games? Not in the least bit.
    You can be a fan of Luck man, it's okay. You don't have to do the "yea but" thing when people praise Luck. We all acknowledge RG3 as a talent, but Luck is our guy. You spend more time countering our praise and defending RG3 than makes logical sense for someone who is supposed to be a fan. Objective or whatever... just root for the guy, lol. Spending 3 paragraphs supporting RG3 and then ending with a sentence that says "but Luck is the safe pick and traditional, he'll probly be better"... sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that Luck is better than RG3 and not being all that successful doing so... almost like you're trying your hardest not to come out and say "Hm RG3 might be better."

    If you believe that, fine... if not, whatever. Luck will be the better QB when all the RG3 smoke clears out, though.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 12-14-2012 at 03:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Relied upon more often to win games maybe. Trying harder to win games? Not in the least bit.
    Luck has no help with the running game. RG3's running backs get 100+ yards a game.
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    Given a lot of those picks came when we were playing from behind, some of the risks were neccesary.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    You can be a fan of Luck man, it's okay. You don't have to do the "yea but" thing when people praise Luck. We all acknowledge RG3 as a talent, but Luck is our guy. You spend more time countering our praise and defending RG3 than makes logical sense for someone who is supposed to be a fan. Objective or whatever... just root for the guy, lol. Spending 3 paragraphs supporting RG3 and then ending with a sentence that says "but Luck is the safe pick and traditional, he'll probly be better"... sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that Luck is better than RG3 and not being all that successful doing so... almost like you're trying your hardest not to come out and say "Hm RG3 might be better."

    If you believe that, fine... if not, whatever. Luck will be the better QB when all the RG3 smoke clears out, though.
    Lol that's not what I was doing at all. I don't think that the gap between the two is as wide as I think you believe. I provide stats and facts in favor of Griffin sometimes, and I provide stats and facts in favor of Luck sometimes. It's all for simple means of subjectivity within the forum. You may not like it, but I happen to think it's necessary sometimes.

    All in all; I believe RGIII is having a better rookie season overall, but I believe that Luck is the better player both now and has a higher ceiling than RGIII.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    You can be a fan of Luck man, it's okay. You don't have to do the "yea but" thing when people praise Luck. We all acknowledge RG3 as a talent, but Luck is our guy. You spend more time countering our praise and defending RG3 than makes logical sense for someone who is supposed to be a fan. Objective or whatever... just root for the guy, lol. Spending 3 paragraphs supporting RG3 and then ending with a sentence that says "but Luck is the safe pick and traditional, he'll probly be better"... sounds like you're trying to convince yourself that Luck is better than RG3 and not being all that successful doing so... almost like you're trying your hardest not to come out and say "Hm RG3 might be better."

    If you believe that, fine... if not, whatever. Luck will be the better QB when all the RG3 smoke clears out, though.
    So basically your saying "Your opinion is wrong and you really need to just conform to what everyone else here should be saying" and then end with an opinion which you try to state as fact.

    I think you both have fair point, and both have an opinion, which is just that, an opinion. Not fact. Sometimes I think this board gets way too butt hurt when people have an opinion different then their own

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Didn't say that at all, that's your own incorrect interpretation.

    In fact, he's absolutely RIGHT. But he defends RG3 a whole lot... there's a pattern. This IS a Colts forum. We know RG3 is decent, although I personaly think he's got some flaws in his game, but he'll be alright. But Ace is a Colts fan from all that I can gather... and yet he seems to be having some internal struggle on trying to decide to throw his ball in Luck's court or not and feels compelled to defend the "other guy". The whole "RG3 does this and that and here and there..... BUT...... Luck is the safe, traditional pick, so that will *probly* work out..... maybe."

    I mean, that's what it sounds like, lol... It's less to do with having a differing opinion than it is he's just trying to convince himself that Luck is actually better than RG3. Trust in Luck, man.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 12-14-2012 at 11:14 PM.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Didn't say that at all, that's your own incorrect interpretation.
    Actually you did, but you have call my interpretations incorrect all you want. Just like you can call peoples opinions wrong all you want

    In fact, he's absolutely RIGHT. But he defends RG3 a whole lot... there's a pattern. This IS a Colts forum. We know RG3 is decent, although I personaly think he's got some flaws in his game, but he'll be alright. But Ace is a Colts fan from all that I can gather... and yet he seems to be having some internal struggle on trying to decide to throw his ball in Luck's court or not and feels compelled to defend the "other guy". The whole "RG3 does this and that and here and there..... BUT...... Luck is the safe, traditional pick, so that will *probly* work out..... maybe."
    I actually appreciate that, and appreciate people who look at things from multiple angles. Perhaps like many fans, he knows he likes Luck but does not think he is the 100% guaranteed sure thing gonna be a HOF stud next week some here have predicted.

    I get OleBlu wore on peoples nerves, but it seems like one persons says something, someone else (anyone) counters, and then they get jumped on. Dont defend the other guy, he isnt a Colt who cares.

    Sometimes it is nice to hear a different angle, even if you dont agree with it.

    PS. Since you mentioned this is a Colts forum. I will also point out the following line:

    The place to talk Colts and the rest of the NFL.

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  29. #1624
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    issues with olblu were a lot bigger than just because "he defended the other guy".

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  31. #1625
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Yeah I get that.

    Enough from me. Things have been peaceful, didn't mean to stir it back up

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