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Thread: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Both have looked great so far and both will have nice long careers.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    He also wasnt making mistakes many people expected (or wanted him to make in some cases)

    Not to mention he came out strong in New Orleans.

    I would agree with your point, but the whole free word seems to anoint the Eagles and Cowboys the dream team year after year...
    Of course he wasn't making mistakes he was playing conservative throwing it safely behind the line of scrimmage.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    Of course he wasn't making mistakes he was playing conservative throwing it safely behind the line of scrimmage.
    If you want to argue that RG3 never threw a pass downfield in any of those games.....then have fun arguing with yourself

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    I have been super busy getting our new house move-in ready, so I missed the first quarter, but what a game.

    Once again it was not pretty, but a win is a win. And as much as I hate John Mara I loved the win even more.

    Never woulda thought we would have a chance to win the division. I have been saying since the offseason I would be happy with 8-8, and I still stand by that.

    PS. Love the clutch TD pass by RG3 Did not like the fumble by Morris, but he seemed to run harder and was mad at himself after that fumble. I love that kind of attitude in a young man!

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Haven't watched a lot of RGIII.Does he mix his game or goes mainly for the running game(either by himself or hand the ball to the RB)?I know that Washington has a good running game.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    RG3 is still running that college option offense... I just don't see it working long-term. He's still leaning heavily on those short check-down passes, designed runs and scrambles on first and second down. He does pick his spots to let a deep pass off. It looks pretty... but in crunch time and "money downs" he's not pulling off anything amazing. It's working now, but I just have concerns for the entire plan in the long run. It's like... the complete opposite of what Luck is doing.

    I dunno... I think people go oooh and ahhh over his 60 yard dashes and his passer rating, but when I watch the kid I'm seeing more fluff and flash than I am real substance. Guess time will tell. I still say that Russell Wilson and Luck (with Luck being clearly in his own league better than anyone else) are the top two QBs from this draft, been saying that since before the season started.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 12-06-2012 at 03:04 PM.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I love blanket statements that have little thought and no merit.

    I can play as well. RG3 has skill, Luck doesnt.

    Bam. Added a whole lot..
    His third down conversion is pretty bad. His third down and long is flat out terrible (11.8%). An argument can be made that he is not as clutch as Luck.

    On a side note, he has to be the only rookie Qb that has fumbled twice in the redzone and got 14 points out of it.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    His third down conversion is pretty bad. His third down and long is flat out terrible (11.8%). An argument can be made that he is not as clutch as Luck.

    On a side note, he has to be the only rookie Qb that has fumbled twice in the redzone and got 14 points out of it.
    I don't disagree when we have 3rd and long we do not convert them often (which team does? Maybe I am wrong, but I would imagine most don't. Unless you have the "Hey dittle dittle lets let ray rice run up the middle" defense on.


    I don't think anyone is their right mind would argue RG3 is more clutch, hell RG3 hasnt had the same opportunities. To me the TD pass at the end of the NYG game (both games, actually, if you want to be technical. Even though we lost the first one) were both very clutch.

    I guess if we are basing clutchness off of 3rd down conversions then I would see your point. But to me clutch is wanting the ball in your hands in crunch time and making something happen. Reggie Miller at the buzzer. Boom baby. That is what I see as clutch.

    Won't argue RG3 has been lucky on his 2 fumbles. However, like my coaches have always said, sometimes its better to be lucky then good. Right place right time.....

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    RG3 is still running that college option offense... I just don't see it working long-term. He's still leaning heavily on those short check-down passes, designed runs and scrambles on first and second down. He does pick his spots to let a deep pass off. It looks pretty... but in crunch time and "money downs" he's not pulling off anything amazing. It's working now, but I just have concerns for the entire plan in the long run. It's like... the complete opposite of what Luck is doing.

    I dunno... I think people go oooh and ahhh over his 60 yard dashes and his passer rating, but when I watch the kid I'm seeing more fluff and flash than I am real substance. Guess time will tell. I still say that Russell Wilson and Luck (with Luck being clearly in his own league better than anyone else) are the top two QBs from this draft, been saying that since before the season started.
    Diffrent styles, but he is getting positive results. Plus Luck ran a pro style offense in NCAA

    If it doesnt work next year then I will say you were right, but right now I 100% disagree. Like when the wildcat came in the league, people do not like change and think if it is not "traditional" then it is "wrong" and "no good".

    Frankly I dont give a **** who the best QB in the NFL is, or who the best rookie is (though I think Luck and RG3 are neck and neck, and I have Luck a little higher) all I care about is that we are one game behind the division leader. And have a serious shot at making the playoffs.

    I will let everyone else argue if it is a gimmick or not, while yall do that I am going to sit back and enjoy the wins.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    Diffrent styles, but he is getting positive results. Plus Luck ran a pro style offense in NCAA

    If it doesnt work next year then I will say you were right, but right now I 100% disagree. Like when the wildcat came in the league, people do not like change and think if it is not "traditional" then it is "wrong" and "no good".
    The wildcat didn't last. =/ Which is my point. League caught on.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    Diffrent styles, but he is getting positive results. Plus Luck ran a pro style offense in NCAA

    If it doesnt work next year then I will say you were right, but right now I 100% disagree. Like when the wildcat came in the league, people do not like change and think if it is not "traditional" then it is "wrong" and "no good".

    Frankly I dont give a **** who the best QB in the NFL is, or who the best rookie is (though I think Luck and RG3 are neck and neck, and I have Luck a little higher) all I care about is that we are one game behind the division leader. And have a serious shot at making the playoffs.

    I will let everyone else argue if it is a gimmick or not, while yall do that I am going to sit back and enjoy the wins.
    Griffin will always be successful individually in that kind of offensive. But it requires the supporting cast to do more than in other offenses. Even if he always makes the right decision on who gets the ball, he's throwing a lot of passes in the -5 to 3 yards downfield range. Personally, I'd rather the coach build up an offense that's gonna give him most of his short passes in the 3 to 6 yard range. That way, even if the defense makes a play you've still got the initial yards.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Yet the wildcat is still used

    The Giants faced us twice, and still had trouble defending it.

    12 weeks into the season, if it was all a "gimmick" then I would tend to belive NFL teams (with the help of all the film they have) woud have figured this out and stifled the offense.

    Granted the Steelers really did, but the Redskins helped them with 10 dropped pases.

    RG3's decision making, athletic ability, and Shannys ZBS and playaction attack is what is working. Shanny did this before, only diffrence is he is doing it out of the Pistol.

    Like I said, other can call it what they want, I will call it a win and enjoy it while it lasts (esp after having nothing to cheer for the past decade).

    Hell, the plays/passes RG3 made to beat the Girl is enough to get me as giddy as a school girl

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by aamcguy View Post
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    Griffin will always be successful individually in that kind of offensive. But it requires the supporting cast to do more than in other offenses. Even if he always makes the right decision on who gets the ball, he's throwing a lot of passes in the -5 to 3 yards downfield range. Personally, I'd rather the coach build up an offense that's gonna give him most of his short passes in the 3 to 6 yard range. That way, even if the defense makes a play you've still got the initial yards.
    AA,

    That is a whole diffrent conversation. I am OK with the system now because it is working, but I would love to see him open it up a bit more. I hate the short dump offs, but you know what, so far they are working

    Of course, part of the problem is all the injuries to our O-line and lack of receivers. I thin the coaches want him to make quick decisions, and in their eyes they like the quick dump passes and the receivers or backs making the plays to get positive yards.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    Yet the wildcat is still used

    The Giants faced us twice, and still had trouble defending it.

    12 weeks into the season, if it was all a "gimmick" then I would tend to belive NFL teams (with the help of all the film they have) woud have figured this out and stifled the offense.

    Granted the Steelers really did, but the Redskins helped them with 10 dropped pases.

    RG3's decision making, athletic ability, and Shannys ZBS and playaction attack is what is working. Shanny did this before, only diffrence is he is doing it out of the Pistol.

    Like I said, other can call it what they want, I will call it a win and enjoy it while it lasts (esp after having nothing to cheer for the past decade).

    Hell, the plays/passes RG3 made to beat the Girl is enough to get me as giddy as a school girl
    The wildcat isn't used much at all, not like it was a few years ago when it took the league by storm. I can't remember the last time I saw the ball hiked directly to a non-QB, actually.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    The wildcat isn't used much at all, not like it was a few years ago when it took the league by storm. I can't remember the last time I saw the ball hiked directly to a non-QB, actually.
    Really? I could have sworn I saw it just last week, though admitidly I may be misremembering

    I thought it was a WR end around, or fake end around pass.

    Agreed it has fizzled out, but it is still used

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    There's really no reason to believe that RGIII and Luck aren't both going to be fantastic at this point. You can say both systems are a little gimmicky to be honest, the Colts can't throw the ball down the field 20 yards forever IMO, eventually Luck's going to have to exploit the middle of the field, right now Luck does not throw the 10 yard slant route well, just in the same way that RGIII has some issues with a couple throws. They are minor, minor complaints for two guys that are absolutely rewriting the level of what is possible for a young QB in this league. I think the Skins offense is already significantly less gimmicky than it was 4 weeks ago for example. Remember, Cam hit his rookie wall in November, both Luck and RGIII got better over November. If one of them was going to get "figured out" I think it would have happened. Cam was figured out last season, not this season.

    I think predicting the downfall of either QB is a little petty at this point. There's no reason to compare them IMO, both guys are playing well and neither the Skins nor the Colts would swap one for the other and that's a fact. They stand on their own, yes I know the media will always link them, but we can rise above the media and just call them both stars. They are doing something we have never seen before, and I htink that is going to be the theme of their career. The shared greatness of the 1 and 2 pick, not a debate over who is the bestest.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Gamble1 View Post
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    His third down conversion is pretty bad. His third down and long is flat out terrible (11.8%). An argument can be made that he is not as clutch as Luck.

    On a side note, he has to be the only rookie Qb that has fumbled twice in the redzone and got 14 points out of it.
    No doubt, Luck's pocket poise is superior right now. That is to be expected, and like I said neither franchise would consider a swap. RGIII though has looked significantly better (not better than Luck, but better than RGIII circa Oct 1) at closing games over the past couple weeks. Right now his team is also firmly in the playoff hunt, so yes he's not as clutch as Luck, but especially on third and long, there is no doubt Luck has more to work with. Third and short, yeah ok, RGIII has Morris, but on third and long, Luck has Wayne, Hilton, Avery, Allen, and now Fleener as well, that's a pretty well stocked cabinet that I don't think we totally expected when the season kicked off. Luck makes some great plays on third and long, but I've seen RGIII do some similar things, he just doesn't have the targets. Garcon? You kidding me? We all know his MO, one spectacular catch followed up by 2-3 mind boggingly bad drops. And that is the problem with the Redskins, they have always been so quick to spend big money on other franchises flawed players. There is a reason the Colts let Garcon walk as the younger player while deciding to pay Reggie.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 12-07-2012 at 12:51 PM.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    The wildcat didn't last. =/ Which is my point. League caught on.

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    The Wildcat was pioneered by a ****** coach with a really average pair of running backs, an old Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown.

    They are totally different than what Washington is doing with a fairly proven coach and a very good young rookie QB. The Skins are already showing more pro style sets than they did in Sept and Oct, and RGIII got better as Nov. wore on, just like Luck they are both learning.

    Here's the thing, it's a matter IMO of when, not if, these two meet in the Super Bowl, that is going to be a crazy, crazy sporting event. Can't decide if I'd rather have them both being looking for their first win or if I'd like for them both to have a ring at that point, would be the most hyped super bowl QB matchup of all time either way.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    No doubt, Luck's pocket poise is superior right now. That is to be expected, and like I said neither franchise would consider a swap. RGIII though has looked significantly better (not better than Luck, but better than RGIII circa Oct 1) at closing games over the past couple weeks. Right now his team is also firmly in the playoff hunt, so yes he's not as clutch as Luck, but especially on third and long, there is no doubt Luck has more to work with. Third and short, yeah ok, RGIII has Morris, but on third and long, Luck has Wayne, Hilton, Avery, Allen, and now Fleener as well, that's a pretty well stocked cabinet that I don't think we totally expected when the season kicked off. Luck makes some great plays on third and long, but I've seen RGIII do some similar things, he just doesn't have the targets. Garcon? You kidding me? We all know his MO, one spectacular catch followed up by 2-3 mind boggingly bad drops. And that is the problem with the Redskins, they have always been so quick to spend big money on other franchises flawed players. There is a reason the Colts let Garcon walk as the younger player while deciding to pay Reggie.
    I agree but 1 point:

    Garcon has made amazing plays all season (minus his injury) and has only dropped passes in one game: The Pitt one. The whole team was dropping passes that game, though.

    You may have bad memories, but he has made nothing but positive plays for us.

    I actually saw a chart that shopped how "exadgerated" his drops were, but admitedly it was on a Redskins site (or the WAPO, I dont remmeber honestly) but point is he has produced for us. So far. And if he is our big "flawed big pursuit" then I will be happy. He is already 1000% the player that Fat Albert was
    Last edited by vapacersfan; 12-07-2012 at 01:13 PM.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
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    I agree but 1 point:

    Garcon has made amazing plays all season (minus his injury) and has only dropped passes in one game: The Pitt one. The whole team was dropping passes that game, though.

    You may have bad memories, but he has made nothing but positive plays for us.

    I actually saw a chart that shopped how "exadgerated" his drops were, but admitedly it was on a Redskins site (or the WAPO, I dont remmeber honestly) but point is he has produced for us. So far. And if he is our big "flawed big pursuit" then I will be happy. He is already 1000% the player that Fat Albert was
    Just wait. It is not to say Garcon is a bad player or even a net negative, but he is not a number 1 receiver.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Just wait. It is not to say Garcon is a bad player or even a net negative, but he is not a number 1 receiver.
    I do not know I agree with that, but if true I am OK with that. I think TPTB are hoping he is a number 1, but IMO if not he will become a great number 2 if we can get a big receiver. Hell, Santana already opens up a lot for Garcon. (or maybe Garcon opens alot for Moss...IDK) And Moss is damn near 900 years old.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Garcon made me want to rip my hair out at times. He made some great plays while on the team but he was also the #1 culprit of losing focus on the simplest of catches. It might not be hyperbole to say that his 3rd down drop in the Super Bowl (which would of turned a 10-0 lead into a 17-0, or at the very least 13-0...though he was as open as a person could be and could of taken it for 6) cost the Colts the game (I'm sure most will say it is hyperbole, but whatever). It definitely changed the way the teams played from then on.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    No doubt, Luck's pocket poise is superior right now. That is to be expected, and like I said neither franchise would consider a swap. RGIII though has looked significantly better (not better than Luck, but better than RGIII circa Oct 1) at closing games over the past couple weeks. Right now his team is also firmly in the playoff hunt, so yes he's not as clutch as Luck, but especially on third and long, there is no doubt Luck has more to work with. Third and short, yeah ok, RGIII has Morris, but on third and long, Luck has Wayne, Hilton, Avery, Allen, and now Fleener as well, that's a pretty well stocked cabinet that I don't think we totally expected when the season kicked off. Luck makes some great plays on third and long, but I've seen RGIII do some similar things, he just doesn't have the targets. Garcon? You kidding me? We all know his MO, one spectacular catch followed up by 2-3 mind boggingly bad drops. And that is the problem with the Redskins, they have always been so quick to spend big money on other franchises flawed players. There is a reason the Colts let Garcon walk as the younger player while deciding to pay Reggie.
    I just don't see the Colts wr's as good as you do. They are mediocre at best with the exception of Wayne. They still make glaring rookie mistakes 2 of which caused interceptions in the lions game. Both have pretty bad lines for pass protection and both have to scramble to extend plays. Being 11% on third in long is bad plan and simple.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    The Wildcat was pioneered by a ****** coach with a really average pair of running backs, an old Ricky Williams and Ronnie Brown.

    They are totally different than what Washington is doing with a fairly proven coach and a very good young rookie QB. The Skins are already showing more pro style sets than they did in Sept and Oct, and RGIII got better as Nov. wore on, just like Luck they are both learning.

    Here's the thing, it's a matter IMO of when, not if, these two meet in the Super Bowl, that is going to be a crazy, crazy sporting event. Can't decide if I'd rather have them both being looking for their first win or if I'd like for them both to have a ring at that point, would be the most hyped super bowl QB matchup of all time either way.
    But the 'Skins don't employ the wildcat. The run that college style option offense. There's a reason it's mostly a college offense. Those offenses find success in the NFL mainly on surprise and lack of recent exposure by opposing defenses, and that's why over time they become less and less effective. I agree that because of RG3's arm and athleticism, they might be able to ride that wave a little farther than the wildcat took Miami in 2008... but it's likely that the wave will still peter out eventually. My thinking leads me to believe that the NFL, once the shiny-ness of it wears off, will say "oh ya, that offense, how do we counter that again..." and RG3 and the 'Skins will be forced to change. And therein lies the big question. The Wildcat got a good year for the Dolphins, and they were surprisingly good at it before teams caught on. Then went 11-5 that year and then got trounced in the opening round. A few other teams tried it based off the success of Miami... until dudes like Belichick solved it (within the same season) and everyone copied him. The wildcat proved less and less successful for them beyond that.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 12-07-2012 at 03:27 PM.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    The redskins offense will peter out simply because its main component is rg3 being a running threat. That simply can't last if they want a healthy qb for 10 years.
    Last edited by Gamble1; 12-08-2012 at 01:14 PM.

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