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Thread: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

  1. #251
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    My point was to make sure vz understood that his comment could be perceived as a racist remark about the state in which the majority of pacers fans(myself included) live. I also said I would give him the benefit of the doubt implying that he didn't mean it like that.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    My point was to make sure vz understood that his comment could be perceived as a racist remark about the state in which the majority of pacers fans(myself included) live. I also said I would give him the benefit of the doubt implying that he didn't mean it like that.

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    It's wasn't a racist remark, my point is that a non traditional QB like RG3 that I think is going to be good but is not ready yet could have a hard time in a place like Indiana, a guy like Luck to me has a longer leash, not only because he is more traditional but because he kinds of looks like Peyton.

    And also we like or not RG3 is always getting compared to Vick and what's the first thing that comes to people's mind when they think about Vick? dog killer, etc.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    You should stop. Trust me. I really truly don't think you're trying to portray the folks in Indiana as racist, but whatever it is you're trying to get across is not coming out the way you think it is.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    It's wasn't a racist remark, my point is that a non traditional QB like RG3 that I think is going to be good but is not ready yet could have a hard time in a place like Indiana, a guy like Luck to me has a longer leash, not only because he is more traditional but because he kinds of looks like Peyton.

    And also we like or not RG3 is always getting compared to Vick and what's the first thing that comes to people's mind when they think about Vick? [BOLD]dog killer, etc.[/BOLD]
    I know this isn't what you're going for, but the way you laid out your argument, it sounds like you're linking running QBs with dog fighting (which is a huge and incorrect leap to make). That's the only other way it can be perceived other than racist (and I don't think that's what you're going for either). Like travmil said, I suggest not going further down this alley.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by CompACE View Post
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    I know this isn't what you're going for, but the way you laid out your argument, it sounds like you're linking running QBs with dog fighting (which is a huge and incorrect leap to make). That's the only other way it can be perceived other than racist (and I don't think that's what you're going for either). Like travmil said, I suggest not going further down this alley.
    Nope my comparison is that I believe that some people link RG3 with Vick just the same way some people link Troy Murphy to whatever power forward that shoot threes.

  7. #256
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    People like Luck because he kind of looks like Peyton? (your words not mine) About the only way they appear similar is because of their skin color, so I'm not sure how we aren't supposed to connect this to being about race.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    People like Luck because he kind of looks like Peyton? (your words not mine) About the only way they appear similar is because of their skin color, so I'm not sure how we aren't supposed to connect this to being about race.
    Just like always you try to twist my words, yes he looks like Peyton, on the way he plays, on the way that he is kind of goofy, many people have said the same thing before, even before the draft but of course you are making a big deal about it. I'm done with this conversation by the way, I forgot were I was posting my comments my bad.

    Administrators feel free to erase all my comments if you feel like it.

  9. #258

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Nope my comparison is that I believe that some people link RG3 with Vick just the same way some people link Troy Murphy to whatever power forward that shoot threes.
    Troy Murphy is a power forward who shoots threes...

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    See this isn't 100% true though either, Luck dove forward on the 3rd down play and the TD run against GB. Now under those circumstances we probably would all do the same, but I'm just saying it could happen. RGIII yesterday though proabbly should have just gone out of bounds.
    He had to dive for the first down
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  11. #260
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Coopdog23 View Post
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    He had to dive for the first down
    RG3 did?
    Wasn't it early in the game? Was the 1st down that important in the game right there? I thought RG3 went out early in the game.
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  12. #261

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    RG3 did?
    Wasn't it early in the game? Was the 1st down that important in the game right there? I thought RG3 went out early in the game.
    I think he is talking about Luck.

  13. #262

    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    There are plenty of stats that can turn the discussion one way or another. Sure you could use 3rd down conversion %, QBR and success within a two minute drill to show that Luck is better; but you could use turnovers, QB rating, and yards per attempt to show that RGIII is better.

    Both QB's have led game winning drives in the 4th QTR. Both guys have taken hellacious hits. (though it was AWESOME for Luck to get up and wink at Jerry after he got DRILLED--and bailed out by a lucky unnecessary roughness penalty) and both guys have impressed.

    I don't want my critical eye to be taken wrongly. I think Luck is VERY good. If i had to choose between the two, I'd choose Luck just because of his moxy and maturity. (he is the ANTI Diva) I just don't think it's as clear cut that Luck is the best and RGIII is just an athlete.
    I am assuming you mean passer rating?

    My response to this is that not all stats are created equal especially depending on the the competition that was faced up till now. This is what bothers me when people argue one over the other or try to act like one hasn't played better than the other. Get away from gaudy stats against bad team and numbers don't lie.

    Bottom line is that maturity plays a much bigger role on QB development than anything else. This is learning from the mistakes and going through your progressions and finding the open man. I don't think RG3 is bad at this but he hasn't proven much outside of putting up big numbers against two teams in the top 4 worse pass defenses in the league. I think he will progress but I always think his legs will be his crutch in the end and his full development won't be reached as a result.

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  15. #263
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by CompACE View Post
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    I know this isn't what you're going for, but the way you laid out your argument, it sounds like you're linking running QBs with dog fighting (which is a huge and incorrect leap to make). That's the only other way it can be perceived other than racist (and I don't think that's what you're going for either). Like travmil said, I suggest not going further down this alley.
    I'll back vnzla81 on this one. It at first sounded a little bad, but after reading it again, he was obviously talking about scrambler vs pocket QB. It seems everyone else is trying to make the connection scramber = black and pocket = white. And I agree with him, Indiana is probably not the best fit for Griffin, not because he is black, but because he is a scrambling QB and we are used to one of the best pocket QBs in history. If we drafted Griffin and he got hurt while Luck was playing great, even if Griffin was also playing great, there would have been severe backlash from fans, esp. with the departure of Manning. I think they are very close in terms of ability to win football games, while being a lot different in terms of style. I think we made the right choice, for reasons vnzla81 pointed out.

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  17. #264
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by HickeyS2000 View Post
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    I think we made the right choice, for reasons vnzla81 pointed out.
    I think we made the right choice because Luck is the better player. That's it. No merit is given to the scrambling or the racial overtones or anything like that. Luck is simply a better player.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I think we made the right choice because Luck is the better player. That's it. No merit is given to the scrambling or the racial overtones or anything like that. Luck is simply a better player.
    No kidding. To insinuate anything else is ridiculous.
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Just like always you try to twist my words, yes he looks like Peyton, on the way he plays, on the way that he is kind of goofy, many people have said the same thing before, even before the draft but of course you are making a big deal about it. I'm done with this conversation by the way, I forgot were I was posting my comments my bad.

    Administrators feel free to erase all my comments if you feel like it.
    I just don't see the physical comparisons between Luck and Manning. Luck is physically much bigger. Luck is much more athletic. They maybe have slightly similar presence in the pocket, but otherwise the way they move is totally different Luck moves like a real athlete when he is out of the pocket. Peyton has moved like a wounded gazelle his whole career. Not trying to twist your words at all, just didn't see this comparison, if that's how you see them that's fine, but I don't see any physical similarities between Luck and Peyton.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I think we made the right choice because Luck is the better player. That's it. No merit is given to the scrambling or the racial overtones or anything like that. Luck is simply a better player.
    I always said that Luck was the better player RIGHT NOW but to me RG3 has the higher potential, so yes you are right FOR NOW.

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    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I always said that Luck was the better player RIGHT NOW but to me RG3 has the higher potential, so yes you are right FOR NOW.
    Imo, RG3 doesn't have higher potential than Luck, not even close actually. He has a lot, but not like Luck.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I just don't see the physical comparisons between Luck and Manning. Luck is physically much bigger. Luck is much more athletic. They maybe have slightly similar presence in the pocket, but otherwise the way they move is totally different Luck moves like a real athlete when he is out of the pocket. Peyton has moved like a wounded gazelle his whole career. Not trying to twist your words at all, just didn't see this comparison, if that's how you see them that's fine, but I don't see any physical similarities between Luck and Peyton.
    Luck is actually smaller physically, but not by much. Their athleticism and strength is nothing alike, though. Luck is a freak.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I think we made the right choice because Luck is the better player. That's it. No merit is given to the scrambling or the racial overtones or anything like that. Luck is simply a better player.
    I think scrambling plays a larger role in it than you want to give on. Even Polian said while they both have similar upside, he would have chosen Luck because scrambling QBs tend to get hurt.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I always said that Luck was the better player RIGHT NOW but to me RG3 has the higher potential, so yes you are right FOR NOW.
    I'll be right for a long while on this one.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I'll be right for a long while on this one.
    As a Colts fan I hope you are right.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    Imo, RG3 doesn't have higher potential than Luck, not even close actually. He has a lot, but not like Luck.
    I feel that Griffin has a higher ceiling than Luck, which is the only reason there was ever a debate about who should be drafted first, because obvously Luck is ahead in terms of understanding the pro game. I don't think there has ever been a scrambling type QB that has the tools that Griffin has. All the ones that come to mind had bad flaws, and the only one Griffin has is size, which again, comes back to scrambling QBs. Just watching Griffin you can tell he would rather stay in the pocket, but for some reason the Shanahans want to turn him into Vick. Pocket QBs like Luck are proven winners, and I think it will take the right coach and offesnse to take a QB like Griffin to that level or beyond. However, I would bet Washington gets him killed before they even come close.

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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    The real misnomer here that needs to be addressed is that scrambling QBs=higher upside.

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  33. #275
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    Default Re: Luck vs Griffin - let it begin.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    The real misnomer here that needs to be addressed is that scrambling QBs=higher upside.
    I wouldn't say they automatically have higher upside, but I also don't think we know yet. If you have two players with similar talent, one is truly a pocket passer, the other does both very very well, why can't the one that does both have higher upside? Absolutely so far the NFL always catches up to them (Vick, Newton). Like I said, it will take the right coaching and system to get them there, but how can you outright dismiss it? Griffin has the tools to be the first. I don't think it's just a gimmick like the wildcat, and I think coaches and teams understand that, which is why so many people invest so much trying to be the first to make it work. The NFL used to be a run first league, now it's a pass first league. I could see having someone that excels freakishly at both could be the next big thing, as so many are trying. And for the record, I would classify Griffin as a pocket QB that is forced to scramble. It's his size that makes everyone assume he is a scrambler first.

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