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Thread: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

  1. #51
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    The difference between the Celtic's JOB and the Pacer's JOB is that the NBA changed. And his gimmicks were not working in the current NBA. They worked then, and that was fine. They worked occasionally with the Pacers. But if a team got hot from the perimeter, they were toast on defense. And if we weren't hot, we were toast. Those were the only variables. We didn't have a player like Pierce who could get into the lane and break down his opponent.

    The Pacers of JOB were both not talented enough to break past the 8-10 seed in the East. And he wasn't good enough to take a rag tag bunch in the current NBA past that like he did with Boston.

    'Nuff said!!!

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    I think O'Brien's negatives overpowered his positives.

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  5. #53
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    My biggest beef with him was his approach to the end of the season. We've had chances at a top lottery pick, I believe at one point we were the 3rd worst team in the league. Out the playoffs and this guy has the audacity to try and "save the season" and we won a bunch of games to close out the year. He should have shut it down and let all the young guys play majority minutes. I understand it looks bad for the franchise to unofficially tank, but at some point when you miss the playoffs 3-4 years in a row and you aren't getting better, you need to take your lumps as a franchise to get better, because nobody remember what you do when your losing. Maybe thats more of a comment on Larry Bird though, but the general attitude and approach from JOB did not help.
    Last edited by graphic-er; 08-22-2012 at 11:57 AM.
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  7. #54
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Coach O'brien should coach the olympic team. All they do is chuck 3s for the most part.

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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by JB24 View Post
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    Yeah sorry, but this is just some serious hyperbole. Ok, he should have been let go at some point during his third season, and definitely should not have been extended, but he did a fairly decent job in his first two seasons.

    do people actually forget the 08-09 season? There were a few coaching brain farts, but go look at that roster and tell me if they had any business being in that many close games/ coming close to securing a playoff spot. If the goal was to tread water (and that appears to have been the FO's goal) then by that measure he did all he could and maximized the strengths of that squad. Sure, as a fan I probably would have done a better job in developing the young guys. But by doing that I probably would have finished with ten less wins and been let go by bird at the end of the season.
    No, it's really not. I said what I've seen, I'll be fair..I never saw Isiah. But I do watch Women's basketball so I've seen some bad coaches..

    Jim O'brien had some logical ideas that he took to extremes so that they wouldn't be logical any longer. Those few logical ideas were about the only positives of that guy.

    Those one and a half years (that I saw) were easily the worst coaching job I've ever seen. I've never seen a coach that was literally terrible at essentially every aspect of coaching. From X's and Os, to offensive philosophy and defensive philosophy, to helping to develop team chemistry, adjustments, or something as simple as what players to play (come on, a ten year old wouldn't stick James Posey on Blake Griffin) or you know..motivating your players. Just awful.

    It says enough that a lot of fans get riled up about him...but players still do too.
    Last edited by Sookie; 08-22-2012 at 04:15 PM.

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  10. #56
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    Overall he was better than Isiah, Versace, Irvine. No where nearly as good as Brown, Carlisle and Bird. In the same class (sorry ChicagoJ) as Bob Hill.
    That's fair. We've got our three all-time best: Slick, Brown, Bird.
    We've got our three all-time worst: Versace, Irvine, Isiah

    Then there are a bunch in the middle, including Carlisle, Hill, Dr. Jack, Vogel, McKinney, and O'Brien. All significantly better than the bottom three, but O'Brien is also at the low end of that list. (I guess Staverman belongs on this list too, if anybody remembers him?)

    Of those, only Carlisle and Dr. Jack could have done as much with the Spurs as what Bo Hill did. And even Bo's last NBA appearance with the Sonics -- a thankless task at that time -- I'm not sure any of those other guys could have gotten 53-81 out of a season and half of that roster. Yuck!

    Bo was a turnaround guy - that middle coach that stops the bleeding, helps the front office maximize its assets, and then gets replaced when somebody "sexier" gets interested in taking over what he has done. Was Bo ever going to get them to the ECFs? Probably not, because the roster changed a LOT over Brown's first 15 months with the team and getting Byron Scott, Tony Davis, Derrick McKey and even Workman and later Mark Jackson helped a lot with making that team an ECF contender.

    If Jim O'Brien has just been fundamentally sound, not using all those damn gimmicks and statistics, he might be solidly in the middle of the pack. And IMO, that's what he was better at in Boston and Philly - yes they shot a lot of 3's but those teams were more fundamentally sound. He'd gone off the deep-end with regards to fundamentals with the Pacers.

    But he still wasn't as bad as Versace, Irvine, or Thomas.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
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  11. #57
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    It says enough that a lot of fans get riled up about him...but players still do too.
    I actually think this is what's most damning about his legacy. Even casual fans often couldn't stand JOB. Current Pacers players are *still* talking about him. You certainly don't hear that level of disdain for many others.

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  13. #58
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    How is Isiah Thomas considered one of the worst. He got a freshly broken up team off an NBA finals Appearance, rebuilding on the fly. Made stars out of players like Brad Miller and JO. He got a team rebuilding on the fly into the playoffs, playing .500 ball. Probably his most egregious error was how he handled Croshere.
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by graphic-er View Post
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    How is Isiah Thomas considered one of the worst. He got a freshly broken up team off an NBA finals Appearance, rebuilding on the fly. Made stars out of players like Brad Miller and JO. He got a team rebuilding on the fly into the playoffs, playing .500 ball. Probably his most egregious error was how he handled Croshere.
    He was awful.

    Disorganized, terrible use of timeouts, often running out of them before the last minutes of the game, often playing the starters the entire second half of games. Reggie at his advancved age averaged more minutes per game under Isiah than any other coach.

    Using Bender at the point guard.

    Using Mercer at point guard.

    Players lost respect for him in his first year 9 still remember the Atlanta Constitution article in April of his first season. The article suggested he was not a hard worker, showing up late for practices. Not getting the team in good physical condition. Practice was very lax.

    By his own admission, not working on defense until late December

    The Quick - more than that though, the players didn't know what they were supposed to be doing.

    The 2003 Pacers were the most talented NBA pacers team since I started following the Pacers.

    But perhaps most damaging to him were the comments made by Mark Boyle and Slick after isiah was let go. They were extremely critical. Both said they doubt he'd ever work in the NBA again. They both seemed to have a distain for him that surprised me. (remember they travel with the team and see a lot of the behind the scenes that we don't)

    I was very interested to hear what Mark and Slick said about JOB after he was let go. Sure they didn't rave about him, but nothing like Isiah
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 08-22-2012 at 04:07 PM.

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  16. #60
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    And to top it off he was just as arrogant with the fanbase. If he touted a stat that said to play Troy and a fan called into his show and brought it up when it backed playing someone else then he'd berate them and dismiss the issue with "there's more than one stat".
    Wasnt that dukedynamite who did that? (i was still living in deep southern indiana outside of radio's reach at the time)
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Buck is right. Zeke really was at another level of bad. He got his opportunities in life purely because he was a great NBA PG. But he's a terrible coach, manager and business owner. He single handedly destroyed the Continental Basketball Association. He and Marbury were a disaster in New York. He set the Indiana Pacers back each year he was coaching.

    In contrast, guys like Bird, Doc Rivers and Phil Jackson all got the same type of opportunities, but they actually had the work ethic required by the office and by life off the court. Thomas did not and that's why he got fired at Florida International as well.

    So...yeh...Jim O'Brien is a better coach and manager than Zeke even considering how abusive and rude he was...

  18. #62
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Oh my goodness. Of our bottom three, Isiah was the absolute worst in-game coach I've ever seen.

    Just full of 100s of bad ideas that he'd try.

    Awful lineups/ rotations. Poor timeout use. Even in this third season he couldn't handle those things. You'd think he would have learned.

    He had good assistants, invested a lot into player development, and Mark Aguirre as one example did a helluva job for the Pacers as an assistant. Chuck Person and Tree Rollins were great assistants (or I guess Chuck was technically in the front office but a key instructor in practice every day).

    As much as his players developed individually, thanks to his assistants, the results on the court were not good.

    And while the team was somewhat dismantled, only the Rik Smits retirement really hurt them. JO was traded for a future all-star PF/C. Jalen Rose was doing fine in the backcourt. Reggie still gave them leadership. Croshere was out of position, and disappointed, but the first year at about 0.500 was about right. The lack of progress in year #2 and the collapse during year #3 were the problems. And that's one of the reasons why the verdict is still out on Vogel. I wouldn't have told you Isiah was terrible after his first year. Confusing at times? Yes. But over time all of his flaws came out on full display.

    And he was awful.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


  19. #63
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    Oh my goodness. Of our bottom three, Isiah was the absolute worst in-game coach I've ever seen.

    Just full of 100s of bad ideas that he'd try.

    Awful lineups/ rotations. Poor timeout use. Even in this third season he couldn't handle those things. You'd think he would have learned.

    He had good assistants, invested a lot into player development, and Mark Aguirre as one example did a helluva job for the Pacers as an assistant. Chuck Person and Tree Rollins were great assistants (or I guess Chuck was technically in the front office but a key instructor in practice every day).

    As much as his players developed individually, thanks to his assistants, the results on the court were not good.

    And while the team was somewhat dismantled, only the Rik Smits retirement really hurt them. JO was traded for a future all-star PF/C. Jalen Rose was doing fine in the backcourt. Reggie still gave them leadership. Croshere was out of position, and disappointed, but the first year at about 0.500 was about right. The lack of progress in year #2 and the collapse during year #3 were the problems. And that's one of the reasons why the verdict is still out on Vogel. I wouldn't have told you Isiah was terrible after his first year. Confusing at times? Yes. But over time all of his flaws came out on full display.

    And he was awful.
    I think the verdict is pretty close on Vogel. If he didn't respect him as a coach I don't think Shaw would be willing to be his assistant again(this with the an advise of a man named Phil Jackson).

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  21. #64
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Sure its simple really. I hate JOB! And everyhting about him, to his personality, to his coaching style.

    It was so bad that I remember about 3 to 4 years ago we were playing the Bulls at home and we were leading up to halftime, for the most part. Anyways he pulls the whole line-up out and replaces them with whomever he saw fit. I was booing so hard across the floor(courtside across from the home bench) and was saying fire JOB, fire JOB. People all around me were agreeing of course. We ended up losing the game. He would do that almost everyother game. I could and still can not understand his line up changes in games and out. Bugged the hell outta me. Like he'd just pull someone even if they were hot. It still makes me shake my head thinking about him.
    Last edited by Bury Your Dead; 08-22-2012 at 07:45 PM. Reason: miss-spell
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    I think the verdict is pretty close on Vogel. If he didn't respect him as a coach I don't think Shaw would be willing to be his assistant again(this with the an advise of a man named Phil Jackson).
    Or, he could want to be in the spot with the coach most likely to be fired so that he could be a convenient replacement. I think one can rest assured that Shaw does not have great respect for Vogel and would consider himself much more qualified (which he definitely is)......

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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Or, he could want to be in the spot with the coach most likely to be fired so that he could be a convenient replacement. I think one can rest assured that Shaw does not have great respect for Vogel and would consider himself much more qualified (which he definitely is)......
    I never said that Shaw thinks Vogel is better than he is. My point is that Shaw doesn't mind working with him. Also there is no reason to believe Vogel is likely to be fired. Its a good team and he likes the staff. If he wasn't going to get his own team he seams happy here. That doesn't happen when you are in constant disagreement with your leader.

  24. #67
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    Default Re: Can we settle this anti-JOB debate once and for all?

    If Vogel isn't here, I want that other assistant out in LA. Yeah, you know who.

    I say the verdict isn't out on Vogel because I've seen too many others plateau after a nice start. Some of you are projecting too much.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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