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Thread: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Peyton did have his moments in the playoffs. He tore up Denver two years in a row, and he was also magnificent in the KC game. Perhaps his defining playoff moment was the AFC championship game when he finally beat NE. That being said, you can't ignore all the games where he played just mediocre. I don't care what kind of statistics you can pull out about him, Peyton didn't show up in several of our playoff losses. I can't believe you brought up the Pittsburgh game to defend Peyton. I attended that game, and Peyton stunk it up for 2.5 quarters. Once he finally got it going, it was too little too late. Edge only had 39 yards, but I think he only got like 10 carries. I don't want to beat a dead horse, and obviously not every single playoff loss falls on Peyton. You are really just kidding yourself if you aren't going to hold Peyton accountable to some extent
    See here you are changing your argument. You go from calling Peyton crap in the playoffs to saying he had "his moments" and and had games where he was mediocre. I don't think anyone will argue with that. But that wasn't what all these responses were to. You called him crap. And that is a ridiculous statement. No where did I say Peyton was amazing. No where did I say he always played his best. All I said is that the Colts were very dependent on him. Which is absolutely true.

  2. #52
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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    I think we all could stand to revisit the SB winning season. The defense was AWFUL against the run. By the end of the season it was apparent the team was figured out because they couldn't stop the run and get a team off the field. Teams just shoved it down the Colts' throats. Which if that happens in the regular season then you know the playoff teams can do it. IIRC, also that season this defensive breakdown cost us that first round bye... or did we just not shut down before the end of the season? In any case, heading into the playoffs Sanders returned AND the Colts' offense was nowhere NEAR as rusty as usual for the playoffs (and so we weren't plagued by slow starts).

    Personally, I think the besides Sanders being back the Colts' sold out to stop the run at almost all costs during the playoffs. Freeney and Mathis stayed home more often and didn't allow delayed handoffs to burn the team (running to where Freeney or Mathis had just spun themselves away from in their zeal to get the QB). Then the offense did play more ball control.

    The biggest thing I think is teams stayed with the plan to attack the Colts on the ground and played into the Colts' desperation move to sell out to stop the run. With a combination of that and a healthy Sanders it reinvigorated the defense. I assume the Colts had decided they'd force the opposing QB to beat us and if that got us in a shootout, so be it... we have Manning and several weapons for a shootout. But lo and behold, teams kept trying to pound it down the Colts' throats, refusing to take what the Colts were actually giving them.

    That factored in heading to the AFCC game where it looked like all that was out the window, but then it became a classic Colts vs Pats game and the next thing you know the Colts had the Pats guessing wrong.

    That's how I remember it....

    I would've liked to have seen Peyton Manning playing with a defense he knew could get a team off the field. That especially includes the playoffs where the other team almost certainly had more balance than the Colts. Every Colt possession, every Colt offensive play, just had so much pressure to be successful because if not it could lead to the team not seeing the ball again for the rest of the quarter. That kind of pressure cannot be conducive to good decision making. If the offense can't get on the field then even a 3-0 deficit can be fairly daunting.
    Last edited by Bball; 08-24-2012 at 12:35 AM.
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  3. #53
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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Was never going to happen, defensively, people... with what we had tied up money-wise in the offense. Everyone railed the defense for a decade, but seriously, 35% of the payroll went to defense, maybe 40%. How does anyone expect defense to be great with that kind of money. That was the system they designed here, to bring in revenues off of flashy offense and hope our O could carry our defense through, but it wasn't balanced. The only year we won the SB, we went balanced on offense and then our defense way overplayed their 35% salary in the post-season... seriously it was heroic that we got that much out of our defense that year (in the post-season). Can only applaud Sanders and Co.
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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    The defense was good enough that we should have won or at least made it to a few more SB's The offense let us down in almost every single playoff exit. I put this on Peyton
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    No it wasn't. The defense was terrible, it never got off the field, and it couldn't make stops when it needed to. And it's only gotten worse.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    No it wasn't. The defense was terrible, it never got off the field, and it couldn't make stops when it needed to. And it's only gotten worse.
    The defense definitely let us down in that 07-08 loss at the Dome against SD when they let Volek tear them up.

    But I don't think the defense was quite as bad as it often gets made out to be.

    The Saints scored 31 points against us in the Super Bowl. But 7 of those points were off the Manning pick 6. 7 more were because of the ridiculously good field position the Saints got after the onside kick. So I would say that the defense was only really responsible for allowing 17 points against the loaded Saints offense. And that was with a hobbled Freeney. The defense played well enough for the Colts to win that game. That loss was because of three things: 1) The Garcon drop, 2) The onside kick, and 3) The Manning pick 6.

    The Jets only scored 17 points in what turned out to be Manning's last game as a Colt. The stupid special teams screwed us over after that Viniteri field goal which should have won the game. The defense definitely played good enough to win that game.

    In the infamous Pittsburgh loss, the Steelers scored 21 points against us. We held them to just 7 in the first half. But their D completely owned Manning that game and baited him into trying to beat them with his arm. If he goes to Edge more then we maybe win that game. Our defense without question played well enough to win that game.

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    No it wasn't. The defense was terrible, it never got off the field, and it couldn't make stops when it needed to. And it's only gotten worse.
    these are the words of a delusional, blindly loyal Manning supporter. The defense kept us in almost every single playoff loss, the lone exception was the 2003 blowout loss to the NYJ (BTW we scored 0 points that game so the offense also stunk).

    2000 - lost to Tennessee 16-19
    2001- lost to Miami 17-23
    2004- lost to NE 14-24
    2005- lost to NE 3-20
    2006- lost to Pitt 18-21
    2008- lost to SD 24-28 (I'll give the offense a pass on this game, 24 should be enough to win)
    2009-lost to SD 17-23 in OT (offense scored zero points in the fourth quarter)
    2011- lost to NYJ 16-17

    Can anybody see a trend here? The offense simply didn't score enough points. This falls primarily on Manning. You would think any offense featuring Peyton Manning would be able to score at least 3 TDS a game. In most of these losses, it wasn't the case at all.
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    these are the words of a delusional, blindly loyal Manning supporter. The defense kept us in almost every single playoff loss, the lone exception was the 2003 blowout loss to the NYJ (BTW we scored 0 points that game so the offense also stunk).

    2000 - lost to Tennessee 16-19
    2001- lost to Miami 17-23
    2004- lost to NE 14-24
    2005- lost to NE 3-20
    2006- lost to Pitt 18-21
    2008- lost to SD 24-28 (I'll give the offense a pass on this game, 24 should be enough to win)
    2009-lost to SD 17-23 in OT (offense scored zero points in the fourth quarter)
    2011- lost to NYJ 16-17

    Can anybody see a trend here? The offense simply didn't score enough points. This falls primarily on Manning. You would think any offense featuring Peyton Manning would be able to score at least 3 TDS a game. In most of these losses, it wasn't the case at all.

    You need to stop calling people delusional Manning supporters. If you have an argument to make, make it.

    Now, for those games in question. Until the last couple years, you cannot rely on an offense to win you games in the playoffs. The level of difficulty ramps up, and teams scheme for you a lot better than they do in the regular season. Also, the teams you are playing are a lot better than those in the regular season. Passing numbers always go down in the playoffs because it's just more difficult to pass. There's no secret why teams have generally won more with a better run game and better defense rather than better passing. All the best passing teams (Colts included) just don't win easily in the playoffs if that's what they rely on. Look at GB and NO last year. By all intents and purposes, they should have easily gotten to the SB. But notice it's NYG, the team with better running and defense and not as good passing as GB/NO that gets in.

    That similar problem plagued the Colts in this past decade. You cannot rely on a QB completely to win a game. I don't disagree that the offense should have played better. But by the same token, the running game and defense should have played much, much better. And I blame Polian for that, not Manning.

    Tennessee and Miami, and the 2 NE teams were better at that time. You say we didn't score enough, that's because the defenses we played were just better. Plus, I maintain that NE manhandled our receivers at the time, and we played in snow where we obviously don't do as well. Again, no running game that is reliable. Pitt? Blame Vanderjagt, not Manning. The 2 SD losses suck, I felt we should have won those. The 2nd was probably due to their ridiculous punter and the horrendous field position that we got in that game. We should have scored more, but again, our defense could never stop them. And ST was terrible that game. NYJ? You do remember that we had no healthy players that year. Pass.

    The only trend I see is that the running game and defense were not good. Sure, Manning could have played better. But you're skipping over a bunch of playoff games where he played excellent. He's had plenty of those in the playoffs, and you can't conveniently ignore those.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Trader Joe, these are the words of a Manning apologist. Key words- non existent running game (we had the NFL's top rusher in 99 and 00), playing from behind (implying it was the defenses fault when the defense kept us in every single playoff game besides the Jets blowout in 03)
    He's an Eagles fan...

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    I think we're not giving enough credence to one of the biggest reasons we played so well in the playoffs in our Super Bowl winning year...we didn't really shut down the starters. Now yes this didn't matter the year we lost to the Saints, but do I think it hurt us a ton in Manning's earlier years? Absolutely, asking an offense as complicated and high powered as ours was to go from being shutdown for 3 weeks to scoring 4-5 TDs a game is a lot to ask (which is how we had to win games from 99-2006). It's the equivalent of putting your Ferrari into storage for 6 months, then starting it up and immediately revving the engine to 8,000 RPMs. It's probably going to put some stress on it.

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    I just don't understand the desire from PG to try and prop Luck up by tearing down RG3 and now Peyton. He's spent more time in this thread knocking both of those guys down than he has spent building Luck up.

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    The defense was bad because the system was bad. It funneled teams to play exactly how you needed to play to beat the Colts- Ball control. Running game. Keep Manning and the offense on the sidelines.

    True, with enough talent upgrades and money maybe it could've been made to be more effective (maybe), but a change in philosophy wouldn't have hurt either. The stubbornness that ignored a defense that gave up exactly what the other team needed to do to beat the Colts is just mind-boggling. Especially if you are not going to put a lot of money on that side of the ball.

    The Colts offense could only be effective if they are getting possessions. Opponents taking what the Colts defense gave them could play ball control, score, and keep the Colt offense on the sidelines. AND put tremendous pressure on the Colts' few possessions to HAVE to score when they did get the ball.
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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    You mean playing your corners 10 yards off of receivers when the best way for the offense neutralize your two best defensive players is with quick dink and donk passes is a bad idea?

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    You mean playing your corners 10 yards off of receivers when the best way for the offense neutralize your two best defensive players is with quick dink and donk passes is a bad idea?

    Or utilizing delayed handoffs and letting your two best defensive players spin themselves right out of position and then the runner gets the ball and heads for the spot they just vacated....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    You mean playing your corners 10 yards off of receivers when the best way for the offense neutralize your two best defensive players is with quick dink and donk passes is a bad idea?
    Joe Montana became a HOF quarterback for that exact reason.
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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Yeah, I think it's just time people call the Tampa 2 (Or the playing not to win defense if you will) what it was...a blatantly stupid defensive scheme that managed to catch offenses by surprise for about a 3 year window before it became quite possibly the worst defense of all time.

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Suaveness View Post
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    You need to stop calling people delusional Manning supporters. If you have an argument to make, make it.

    Now, for those games in question. Until the last couple years, you cannot rely on an offense to win you games in the playoffs. The level of difficulty ramps up, and teams scheme for you a lot better than they do in the regular season. Also, the teams you are playing are a lot better than those in the regular season. Passing numbers always go down in the playoffs because it's just more difficult to pass. There's no secret why teams have generally won more with a better run game and better defense rather than better passing. All the best passing teams (Colts included) just don't win easily in the playoffs if that's what they rely on. Look at GB and NO last year. By all intents and purposes, they should have easily gotten to the SB. But notice it's NYG, the team with better running and defense and not as good passing as GB/NO that gets in.

    That similar problem plagued the Colts in this past decade. You cannot rely on a QB completely to win a game. I don't disagree that the offense should have played better. But by the same token, the running game and defense should have played much, much better. And I blame Polian for that, not Manning.

    Tennessee and Miami, and the 2 NE teams were better at that time. You say we didn't score enough, that's because the defenses we played were just better. Plus, I maintain that NE manhandled our receivers at the time, and we played in snow where we obviously don't do as well. Again, no running game that is reliable. Pitt? Blame Vanderjagt, not Manning. The 2 SD losses suck, I felt we should have won those. The 2nd was probably due to their ridiculous punter and the horrendous field position that we got in that game. We should have scored more, but again, our defense could never stop them. And ST was terrible that game. NYJ? You do remember that we had no healthy players that year. Pass.

    The only trend I see is that the running game and defense were not good. Sure, Manning could have played better. But you're skipping over a bunch of playoff games where he played excellent. He's had plenty of those in the playoffs, and you can't conveniently ignore those.
    The defense wasn't good in the 05 loss vs NE when they only game up 6 points at half time? Blame a kicker when through 3 quarters our offense only scored 3 pts? Blame the 2nd SD loss on a punter? Blame it on the snow? Dude you need a reality check big time
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I just don't understand the desire from PG to try and prop Luck up by tearing down RG3 and now Peyton. He's spent more time in this thread knocking both of those guys down than he has spent building Luck up.
    I wrote previously that I hope Luck plays better than Manning in the playoffs, and then the Manning apologists came after me. The excuses are more and more ridiculous as this thread has devolved. The most ridiculous is the snow excuse.
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    I wrote previously that I hope Luck plays better than Manning in the playoffs, and then the Manning apologists came after me. The excuses are more and more ridiculous as this thread has devolved. The most ridiculous is the snow excuse.
    What you don't understand is that Luck has to get to the playoffs. The Colts went 36 years between Super Bowls until Manning took them there. The Colts may not make the playoffs for a decade if Luck doesn't work out or gets injured...... ...

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Yeah, I think it's just time people call the Tampa 2 (Or the playing not to win defense if you will) what it was...a blatantly stupid defensive scheme that managed to catch offenses by surprise for about a 3 year window before it became quite possibly the worst defense of all time.
    TJ, that really isn't what happened. That defense was designed to funnel the receivers to the middle of the field and then hit them with all you have ala Bob Sanders. Sanders got hurt all of the time but the real culprit was the NFL changing the rules so that a safety couldn't come up and really punish a player for turning into the middle of the field. That is what made Tampa 2 obsolete. I am not a big fan of the 3-4 especially when you don't have the players to make it work..... ...

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    Default Re: Luck, He's Getting An Insane Amount Of Praise

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    You mean playing your corners 10 yards off of receivers when the best way for the offense neutralize your two best defensive players is with quick dink and donk passes is a bad idea?
    The worst part of the whole thing was that they couldn't even realize that it sucked. They did the same stupid thing year after year and called it a "defense". Imagine if Manning actually had a real defense to play with. The biggest problem we had was we just never had enough possessions. This made things so much worse.
    Don't ask Marvin Harrison what he did during the bye week. "Batman never told where the Bat Cave is," he explained.

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