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Thread: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

  1. #1
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    We discuss this topic quite a bit, so I figured lets see exactly what market size really is. Portland is a little larger than I figured. Keep in mind this is TV market.

    Largest TV markets without NBA team.
    Seattle - 12
    Tampa - 14
    St. Louis - 21
    Pittsburgh - 23

    Smallest markets with a team
    New Orleans -52
    Memphis - 49
    OKC - 44
    San Antonio - 36


    http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/201...ytheNumbers%29


    Local Television Market Universe Estimates
    Estimates as of January 1, 2012 and used throughout the 2011-2012 television season
    Estimates are effective September 24, 2011
    Rank Designated Market Area (DMA) TV Homes % of US
    1 New York 7,387,810 6.444
    2 Los Angeles 5,569,780 4.858
    3 Chicago 3,493,480 3.047
    4 Philadelphia 2,993,370 2.611
    5 Dallas-Ft. Worth 2,571,310 2.243
    6 San Francisco-Oak-San Jose 2,506,510 2.186
    7 Boston (Manchester) 2,379,690 2.076
    8 Washington, DC (Hagrstwn) 2,360,180 2.059
    9 Atlanta 2,292,640 2.000
    10 Houston 2,185,260 1.906
    11 Detroit 1,842,650 1.607
    12 Seattle-Tacoma 1,811,420 1.580
    13 Phoenix (Prescott) 1,811,330 1.580
    14 Tampa-St. Pete (Sarasota) 1,788,240 1.560
    15 Minneapolis-St. Paul 1,721,940 1.502
    16 Miami-Ft. Lauderdale 1,583,800 1.381
    17 Denver 1,548,570 1.351
    18 Cleveland-Akron (Canton) 1,514,170 1.321
    19 Orlando-Daytona Bch-Melbrn 1,465,460 1.278
    20 Sacramnto-Stkton-Modesto 1,388,570 1.211
    21 St. Louis 1,253,920 1.094
    22 Portland, OR 1,190,010 1.038
    23 Pittsburgh 1,171,490 1.022
    24 Raleigh-Durham (Fayetvlle) 1,143,420 0.997
    25 Charlotte 1,140,900 0.995
    26 Indianapolis 1,109,970 0.968
    27 Baltimore 1,097,310 0.957
    28 San Diego 1,077,600 0.940
    29 Nashville 1,024,560 0.894
    30 Hartford & New Haven 1,006,280 0.878
    31 Kansas City 939,740 0.820
    32 Columbus, OH 932,680 0.814
    33 Salt Lake City 927,540 0.809
    34 Milwaukee 907,660 0.792
    35 Cincinnati 896,090 0.782
    36 San Antonio 880,690 0.768
    37 Greenvll-Spart-Ashevll-And 860,930 0.751
    38 West Palm Beach-Ft. Pierce 788,020 0.687
    39 Birmingham (Ann and Tusc) 738,790 0.644
    40 Las Vegas 737,300 0.643
    41 Harrisburg-Lncstr-Leb-York 729,440 0.636
    42 Grand Rapids-Kalmzoo-B.Crk 722,150 0.630
    43 Norfolk-Portsmth-Newpt Nws 718,750 0.627
    44 Oklahoma City 712,630 0.622
    45 Albuquerque-Santa Fe 710,050 0.619
    46 Greensboro-H.Point-W.Salem 691,200 0.603
    47 Austin 686,830 0.599
    48 Louisville 674,050 0.588
    49 Memphis 669,940 0.584
    50 Jacksonville 669,840 0.584
    51 Buffalo 645,190 0.563
    52 New Orleans 643,660 0.561
    53 Providence-New Bedford 620,010 0.541
    54 Wilkes Barre-Scranton-Hztn 590,740 0.515
    55 Fresno-Visalia 574,800 0.501
    56 Little Rock-Pine Bluff 571,630 0.499
    57 Richmond-Petersburg 559,390 0.488
    58 Albany-Schenectady-Troy 551,120 0.481
    59 Tulsa 529,100 0.461
    60 Mobile-Pensacola (Ft Walt) 527,930 0.460
    61 Knoxville 527,790 0.460
    62 Ft. Myers-Naples 504,240 0.440
    63 Dayton 493,600 0.431
    64 Lexington 488,850 0.426
    65 Charleston-Huntington 465,030 0.406
    66 Roanoke-Lynchburg 455,860 0.398
    67 Wichita-Hutchinson Plus 454,590 0.397
    68 Flint-Saginaw-Bay City 451,880 0.394
    69 Green Bay-Appleton 445,760 0.389
    70 Tucson (Sierra Vista) 442,020 0.386
    71 Honolulu 434,730 0.379
    72 Des Moines-Ames 431,300 0.376
    73 Spokane 426,690 0.372
    74 Toledo 426,280 0.372
    75 Springfield, MO 423,010 0.369
    76 Omaha 415,510 0.362
    77 Columbia, SC 404,830 0.353
    78 Portland-Auburn 401,370 0.350
    79 Rochester, NY 398,790 0.348
    80 Huntsville-Decatur (Flor) 394,010 0.344
    81 Paducah-Cape Girard-Harsbg 393,330 0.343
    82 Champaign&Sprngfld-Decatur 386,160 0.337
    83 Shreveport 386,150 0.337
    84 Syracuse 386,090 0.337
    85 Madison 378,290 0.330
    86 Chattanooga 366,790 0.320
    87 Harlingen-Wslco-Brnsvl-McA 361,820 0.316
    88 Waco-Temple-Bryan 353,190 0.308
    89 Cedar Rapids-Wtrlo-IWC&Dub 344,150 0.300
    90 Colorado Springs-Pueblo 343,160 0.299
    91 El Paso (Las Cruces) 336,570 0.294
    92 Savannah 335,080 0.292
    93 Jackson, MS 334,530 0.292
    94 Baton Rouge 333,010 0.290
    95 Burlington-Plattsburgh 323,750 0.282
    96 Tri-Cities, TN-VA 323,640 0.282
    97 South Bend-Elkhart 322,090 0.281
    98 Charleston, SC 311,260 0.271
    99 Greenville-N.Bern-Washngtn 307,610 0.268
    100 Davenport-R.Island-Moline 307,050 0.268
    101 Ft. Smith-Fay-Sprngdl-Rgrs 301,120 0.263
    102 Johnstown-Altoona-St Colge 294,770 0.257
    103 Myrtle Beach-Florence 289,060 0.252
    104 Evansville 287,880 0.251
    105 Lincoln & Hastings-Krny 280,310 0.244
    106 Tallahassee-Thomasville 272,520 0.238
    107 Tyler-Longview(Lfkn&Ncgd) 271,400 0.237
    108 Reno 271,020 0.236
    109 Ft. Wayne 267,710 0.234
    110 Youngstown 263,850 0.230
    111 Augusta-Aiken 262,560 0.229
    112 Boise 261,810 0.228
    113 Sioux Falls(Mitchell) 261,530 0.228
    114 Springfield-Holyoke 257,080 0.224
    115 Lansing 252,890 0.221
    116 Peoria-Bloomington 247,850 0.216
    117 Fargo-Valley City 246,780 0.215
    118 Macon 245,910 0.214
    119 Montgomery-Selma 245,100 0.214
    120 Traverse City-Cadillac 244,050 0.213
    121 Eugene 241,270 0.210
    122 SantaBarbra-SanMar-SanLuOb 230,830 0.201
    123 Yakima-Pasco-Rchlnd-Knnwck 230,010 0.201
    124 Lafayette, LA 229,320 0.200
    125 Monterey-Salinas 223,620 0.195
    126 Bakersfield 221,920 0.194
    127 Columbus, GA (Opelika, AL) 215,410 0.188
    128 La Crosse-Eau Claire 213,660 0.186
    129 Corpus Christi 203,550 0.178
    130 Amarillo 195,650 0.171
    131 Chico-Redding 194,590 0.170
    132 Wilmington 190,730 0.166
    133 Columbus-Tupelo-W Pnt-Hstn 189,910 0.166
    134 Rockford 184,360 0.161
    135 Wausau-Rhinelander 181,280 0.158
    136 Topeka 177,710 0.155
    137 Monroe-El Dorado 177,410 0.155
    138 Columbia-Jefferson City 176,470 0.154
    139 Duluth-Superior 173,710 0.152
    140 Medford-Klamath Falls 170,670 0.149
    141 Beaumont-Port Arthur 168,420 0.147
    142 Wichita Falls & Lawton 160,540 0.140
    143 Lubbock 160,160 0.140
    144 Salisbury 159,640 0.139
    145 Palm Springs 158,440 0.138
    146 Erie 157,730 0.138
    147 Sioux City 157,060 0.137
    148 Anchorage 155,600 0.136
    149 Joplin-Pittsburg 153,910 0.134
    150 Albany, GA 151,620 0.132
    151 Odessa-Midland 146,040 0.127
    152 Minot-Bsmrck-Dcknsn(Wlstn) 145,480 0.127
    153 Rochestr-Mason City-Austin 145,450 0.127
    154 Terre Haute 142,780 0.125
    155 Bangor 141,580 0.123
    156 Bluefield-Beckley-Oak Hill 137,380 0.120
    157 Binghamton 136,730 0.119
    158 Wheeling-Steubenville 133,120 0.116
    159 Panama City 132,120 0.115
    160 Idaho Fals-Pocatllo(Jcksn) 128,940 0.112
    161 Sherman-Ada 128,790 0.112
    162 Biloxi-Gulfport 128,150 0.112
    163 Gainesville 124,730 0.109
    164 Abilene-Sweetwater 115,630 0.101
    165 Missoula 114,590 0.100
    166 Yuma-El Centro 112,850 0.098
    167 Hattiesburg-Laurel 111,560 0.097
    168 Billings 109,940 0.096
    169 Dothan 109,080 0.095
    170 Clarksburg-Weston 108,980 0.095
    171 Quincy-Hannibal-Keokuk 104,790 0.091
    172 Utica 104,750 0.091
    173 Rapid City 100,120 0.087
    174 Elmira (Corning) 96,600 0.084
    175 Lake Charles 94,850 0.083
    176 Jackson, TN 94,650 0.083
    177 Watertown 93,090 0.081
    178 Harrisonburg 91,620 0.080
    179 Alexandria, LA 90,160 0.079
    180 Marquette 85,230 0.074
    181 Jonesboro 81,300 0.071
    182 Bowling Green 79,990 0.070
    183 Charlottesville 74,630 0.065
    184 Grand Junction-Montrose 72,970 0.064
    185 Laredo 72,060 0.063
    186 Meridian 70,190 0.061
    187 Greenwood-Greenville 67,730 0.059
    188 Lafayette, IN 67,260 0.059
    189 Butte-Bozeman 66,910 0.058
    190 Great Falls 66,190 0.058
    191 Twin Falls 65,800 0.057
    192 Parkersburg 63,120 0.055
    193 Bend, OR 62,620 0.055
    194 Eureka 61,180 0.053
    195 Cheyenne-Scottsbluff 56,640 0.049
    196 Casper-Riverton 56,460 0.049
    197 San Angelo 55,570 0.048
    198 Mankato 53,720 0.047
    199 Ottumwa-Kirksville 47,810 0.042
    200 St. Joseph 46,690 0.041
    201 Lima 39,350 0.034
    202 Fairbanks 37,010 0.032
    203 Zanesville 33,140 0.029
    204 Victoria 31,540 0.028
    205 Presque Isle 29,850 0.026
    206 Helena 28,050 0.024
    207 Juneau 25,500 0.022
    208 Alpena 17,100 0.015
    209 North Platte 15,180 0.013
    210 Glendive 4,180 0.004
    NSI Total U.S. 114,649,310 100.000
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    Last edited by Unclebuck; 08-20-2012 at 01:24 PM.

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  3. #2
    Over the pond ballism's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    I always found this chart interesting:
    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/45197280/SportsChart.pdf

    I don't remember which organization made it, but it was used in an article on bizjournals site some time ago (before the Atlanta hockey team moved to Canada).

    It basically shows availability (or lack) of money for sports in US/Canada markets.
    It's based on average income in those markets, competing teams, and fairly basic formulas on what % of their income people spend on major league sports.

    It's far from perfect (e.g., it doesn't take into account college teams or other entertainment options that may compete with major leagues, or the difference in living costs between markets). But still, the data is interesting.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    So why would the Pacers move to Las Vegas if their are smaller than Indiana?

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    Over the pond ballism's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    So why would the Pacers move to Las Vegas if their are smaller than Indiana?
    i don't think the Pacers moving was ever a strong possibility.

    but re the general idea of an [insert a small market team with no stadium and support] moving there... it's intriguing.
    it's not a huge market, but it's very rich for its size (richer than Indianapolis) and it has no major league teams or super college teams. that's the pitch.
    obviously that's just part of the story due to all the other entertainment options.

    In the end, I suspect the NBA would prefer to let a minor league or a smaller league like MLS try it first and be the 'lab rat'.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by ballism View Post
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    and it has no major league teams or super college teams. that's the pitch.
    Well, there's UNLV, but they haven't been much of a powerhouse recently...
    BillS

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Well, there's UNLV, but they haven't been much of a powerhouse recently...
    UNLV's going to be pretty good this year, in mens hoops anyway. Not Johnson/Augmon/Anthony, but they're on the way back. Still, while never being to Vegas, I always got the impression they became a big deal out west in the early 90s basically because there isn't a lot of other options sports wise and it was a style over substance thing for most as opposed to any deep seeded tie to the school.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    I was in Vegas (# 40 on the list) over the weekend and ran into a guy who appeared to be knowledgeable (but in Vegas, appearances can be deceiving) about their city's strong push to lure either NHL and/or NBA teams, based on their ability to draw large vendor/sponsor revenues from hotels and casinos. Apparently the NBA has suggested that if sponsor revenue can be guaranteed, Vegas would have an inside track for any re-location. He also suggested their metro market was well over 1 million, despite the smaller number for their Vegas market. Apparently there will be talk soon about a stadium being built. He suggested that Sacramento (# 20) is being targeted as the team.

    If that happened, add that to the list of places Athletes would flock instead of Indy (whereas Sacramento is not currently that much of an issue).

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Vegas might be interesting in that they might be able to fill the arena, albeit it might be tourists doing it. OTOH, the team would be competing with a lot of other entertainment options and I think the NBA might learn that their business model doesn't exactly make them 'can't miss' viewing when multiple other options exist. But that is just my opinion.

    So IMO it could backfire entirely with tourists not giving a dayum about the NBA versus other options and locals not being star struck at all with NBA entertainment and star power when you consider they live around that kind of thing daily and aren't an absolutely HUGE market like LA or NY.

    Then the next thing to consider is TV.... What would the TV ratings be like in Vegas, especially once the honeymoon was over?
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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by MTM View Post
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    I was in Vegas (# 40 on the list) over the weekend and ran into a guy who appeared to be knowledgeable (but in Vegas, appearances can be deceiving) about their city's strong push to lure either NHL and/or NBA teams, based on their ability to draw large vendor/sponsor revenues from hotels and casinos. Apparently the NBA has suggested that if sponsor revenue can be guaranteed, Vegas would have an inside track for any re-location. He also suggested their metro market was well over 1 million, despite the smaller number for their Vegas market. Apparently there will be talk soon about a stadium being built. He suggested that Sacramento (# 20) is being targeted as the team.

    If that happened, add that to the list of places Athletes would flock instead of Indy (whereas Sacramento is not currently that much of an issue).
    I honestly believe that the Maloofs have been difficult about this new arena in Sacramento because of Vegas. They love Vegas and I think most people know that they want to be there.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    I don't know about you guys but I was surprised to see Ft Wayne is smaller than both South Bend and Evansville.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    I don't know about you guys but I was surprised to see Ft Wayne is smaller than both South Bend and Evansville.
    I'm surprised Ft Wayne hasn't been bulldozed over and erased from the history books... but that might just be me...
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I'm surprised Ft Wayne hasn't been bulldozed over and erased from the history books... but that might just be me...
    Haha, I don't care either way, just know that Ft. Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and is bigger than Evansville and South Bend combined.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    I find these numbers and groupings odd... as they don't bundle metropolitan areas together in some cases, and they do in others. For example, Fort Myers, FL and Naples, FL are bundled together in a single number despite being close to 60 min apart... But the Indy calculation doesn't account for the MSA...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana...ropolitan_area

    Per these data, Indy MSA is >2,000,000

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by docpaul View Post
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    I find these numbers and groupings odd... as they don't bundle metropolitan areas together in some cases, and they do in others. For example, Fort Myers, FL and Naples, FL are bundled together in a single number despite being close to 60 min apart... But the Indy calculation doesn't account for the MSA...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indiana...ropolitan_area


    Per these data, Indy MSA is >2,000,000
    Exactly what I was wondering. Orlando & Melbourne are almost 70 miles from one another if that is the case then Indianapolis should be able to include Anderson, Lafayette, Shelbyville and everything in between but for whatever reason it doesn't work like that.


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    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    OK, I always thought that TV market size refered to number of homes in the local TV market. IN other words if you live in Columbus Indiana and you get the Indianapolis local TV stations than you are within the Indianapolis TV market. And I still think that is the case. Remember the numbers listed above are TV homes. Meaning a family of 7 just counts as 1 TV home. Although I'm not sure that makes sense either

    Maybe it gets difficult when certain cities/tiwns get more than 1 set of local TV stations.

    I know for example Angola, Indiana gets Fort Wayne Stations, but also Kalamazoo, Lansing and maybe a couple more. I know South Bend has there own local TV market, but as you move closer to Chicago when does it become the Chicago market? So maybe if you live in a city that gets more than 1 set of local stations you aren't counted?
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 08-21-2012 at 08:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Haha, I don't care either way, just know that Ft. Wayne is the second largest city in Indiana and is bigger than Evansville and South Bend combined.
    Besides the Zoo, Tincaps, Komets, Mad Ants, and IPFW there isn't much. Couple of bars (if you are into that) and gentleman establishments (if you are into that). Really the biggest part of the city are the hospitals.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    OK, I always thought that TV market size refered to number of homes in the local TV market. IN other words if you live in Columbus Indiana and you get the Indianapolis local TV stations than you are within the Indianapolis TV market. And I still think that is the case. Remember the numbers listed above are TV homes. Meaning a family of 7 just counts as 1 TV home. Although I'm not sure that makes sense either

    Maybe it gets difficult when certain cities/tiwns get more than 1 set of local TV stations.

    I know for example Angola, Indiana gets Fort Wayne Stations, but also Kalamazoo, Lansing and maybe a couple more. I know South Bend has there own local TV market, but as you move closer to Chicago when does it become the Chicago market? So maybe if you live in a city that gets more than 1 set of local stations you aren't counted?
    Ah, you've made the key observation: TV homes do not equal individuals... I would presume that the 1.1 million TV homes refer to 3-4 million people. So it is likely largely the broader MSA, which includes Carmel, Noblesville, Fishers, etc etc.

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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Besides the Zoo, Tincaps, Komets, Mad Ants, and IPFW there isn't much. Couple of bars (if you are into that) and gentleman establishments (if you are into that). Really the biggest part of the city are the hospitals.
    Nah. Sometimes you have to dig a bit but there is more than that to be had, and it really just depends on what you want. For example, there are some nice art galleries/museums, a movie theater that shows independent films, a small local band scene, the botanical garden, and the central library is pretty nice (one of the largest genealogy collections in the country, among other things) for a city of that size. Having just gone back last month I was struck by how much more vibrant the place seems than it was when I grew up there in the 80s. People still ***** about there being nothing to do, but then they don't really look much either, as if they expect entertainment to just smack them in the face. That doesn't really happen unless you live somewhere like NYC, LA or Chicago.
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    Default Re: Current market size rankings. Portland larger than Indy

    Quote Originally Posted by gummy View Post
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    Nah. Sometimes you have to dig a bit but there is more than that to be had, and it really just depends on what you want. For example, there are some nice art galleries/museums, a movie theater that shows independent films, a small local band scene, the botanical garden, and the central library is pretty nice (one of the largest genealogy collections in the country, among other things) for a city of that size. Having just gone back last month I was struck by how much more vibrant the place seems than it was when I grew up there in the 80s. People still ***** about there being nothing to do, but then they don't really look much either, as if they expect entertainment to just smack them in the face. That doesn't really happen unless you live somewhere like NYC, LA or Chicago.
    I am pretty sure everyone outside of NYC, LA, Chicago, and LV complain about there never being anything to do in their town/city.

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    Last Post: 01-30-2005, 04:56 PM

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