View Poll Results: Do you think JOB saved the Pacers for moving to Las Vegas or Seattle?

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Thread: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    One more year of O'Brien, in my view, could have led to a disbanding of the franchise, with a re-emergence of another franchise in another city to replace it, and the Fieldhouse sitting vacant for a while.

    Don't forget that the Pacers still pay a hefty chunk of their TV revenue to the former ownership of the St. Louis Spirits from the ABA merger agreement, and that could have been partially broken if the Pacers ceased to exist. The huge penalties to the CIB in the event of leaving or simply stopping probably were instrumental in saving the franchise during that time.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    One more year of O'Brien, in my view, could have led to a disbanding of the franchise, with a re-emergence of another franchise in another city to replace it, and the Fieldhouse sitting vacant for a while.

    Don't forget that the Pacers still pay a hefty chunk of their TV revenue to the former ownership of the St. Louis Spirits from the ABA merger agreement, and that could have been partially broken if the Pacers ceased to exist. The huge penalties to the CIB in the event of leaving or simply stopping probably were instrumental in saving the franchise during that time.

    I don't think O'Brien was ever coming back for another year. He completed the rebuild and his job with the team was done and done well. I do think that the fans calling for his head too soon led to the hiring of an inexperienced coach who is costing the Pacers games every year, especially in the playoffs. If JOB had finished the year, the man sitting next to Vogel might have been the coach and the Pacers would be even better prepared to win..... ...

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I don't think O'Brien was ever coming back for another year. He completed the rebuild and his job with the team was done and done well. I do think that the fans calling for his head too soon led to the hiring of an inexperienced coach who is costing the Pacers games every year, especially in the playoffs. If JOB had finished the year, the man sitting next to Vogel might have been the coach and the Pacers would be even better prepared to win..... ...
    Crediting JOB for the rebuild is like crediting Mrs. O'Leary's cow for the city that Chicago has become.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brad8888 View Post
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    Crediting JOB for the rebuild is like crediting Mrs. O'Leary's cow for the city that Chicago has become.
    I wouldn't credit him for the rebuild, however he did a good job helping change the culture and instilling discipline. Jim Obrien also can be credited with bringing the Pacers Frank Vogel. Credit for the rebuild mostly goes to the Legend.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    I wouldn't credit him for the rebuild, however he did a good job helping change the culture and instilling discipline. Jim Obrien also can be credited with bringing the Pacers Frank Vogel. Credit for the rebuild mostly goes to the Legend.
    How hard can it really be to "instill discipline"? It is possible to have a coach who can both coach well while being a tough disciplinarian. It's not a one or the other thing. O'Brien should have been gone long before January 2011.

    And how did he change the culture? The culture was changed for him. Players like JO and Tinsley were shipped away. The culture he then developed was one in which the players despised playing for him. That's not a positive culture.
    Last edited by Sollozzo; 08-19-2012 at 05:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    JOB was brought in to make the most of a salary strapped team. I have said that if the team was a perinnal loser that Indy would not have a team. That was an incomplete thought.

    If the Pacers hit the lottery every year and got the results of Minny, LAC, or even Portland, and we are not even contenders....I can not say with certainty that we would still have a team. I really do not think it is as much as what the current roster does in the W/L column. It has more to do with corporate sponsors, NBA governmental politics, and a viable market to move in that is leaps and bounds above Indy.

    So no JOB did not save this team. Nor did Bird. Nor did Vogel. Simons alone can't be credited. Yes folks, be thankful that we have the Simons. But if a sweet deal comes along, we are not as secure as you may think.


    Let me ask this question:
    What is a greater possibility; the team moving or a championship?

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I don't think O'Brien was ever coming back for another year. He completed the rebuild and his job with the team was done and done well. I do think that the fans calling for his head too soon led to the hiring of an inexperienced coach who is costing the Pacers games every year, especially in the playoffs. If JOB had finished the year, the man sitting next to Vogel might have been the coach and the Pacers would be even better prepared to win..... ...

    WOW!!!! Are you just trying to ?


    And layoff the reason behind the poll. Would you rather talk about Brandon Rush?

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Major Cold;1494600]JOB was brought in to make the most of a salary strapped team. I have said that if the team was a perinnal loser that Indy would not have a team. That was an incomplete thought.
    The problem is that the team was a perennial loser, 30+ wins but still a loser.

    If the Pacers hit the lottery every year and got the results of Minny, LAC, or even Portland, and we are not even contenders....I can not say with certainty that we would still have a team. I really do not think it is as much as what the current roster does in the W/L column. It has more to do with corporate sponsors, NBA governmental politics, and a viable market to move in that is leaps and bounds above Indy.
    The Pacers are not contenders either, they are also on the bottom attendance wise, I'm sorry but I don't think that sponsor, the NBA, the City of Indianapolis and the Simons changed their minds because instead of winning 10 games they were winning 30, I just don't see it.


    So no JOB did not save this team. Nor did Bird. Nor did Vogel. Simons alone can't be credited. Yes folks, be thankful that we have the Simons. But if a sweet deal comes along, we are not as secure as you may think.
    So they expend a bunch of money in new screens and in upgrades for the Fieldhouse and you believe they can still leave? I don't see that happening.


    Let me ask this question:
    What is a greater possibility; the team moving or a championship?
    Neither are a possibility at this moment.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The problem is that the team was a perennial loser, 30+ wins but still a loser.
    Its not technicality Tuesday is it? I think you know what I mean. Basement dwellers, lottery fodder. Under 25 wins.

    The Pacers are not contenders either, they are also on the bottom attendance wise, I'm sorry but I don't think that sponsor, the NBA, the City of Indianapolis and the Simons changed their minds because instead of winning 10 games they were winning 30, I just don't see it.
    That is my point. Winning 30 vs 10 games would not matter if corporate sponsors, NBA decisions, the Simons sell/vacate INDY were ideal. If they are going to move, the will move regardless of a subpar season. Heck the Kings would have moved the moment Webber busted out if it weren't for the NBA, corporate sponsors, and a much more lucrative market opened up.

    Lets say the Nets never moved to Brooklyn. And Brooklyn were as wanting as Seattle in getting a team. I would think more owners (NOH, ATL, IND, CHA, MIL) would be more interested. Especially since the last CBA did nothing for them.....nothing.



    So they expend a bunch of money in new screens and in upgrades for the Fieldhouse and you believe they can still leave? I don't see that happening.
    I don't. And I don't think they are a lock to be as secure as you think in 20 years. My point is if a more lucrative market opens up with NBA subsidies, along with the younger Simons taking over the estate, then a 25 year old building with lips stick won't alone keep the Pacers.

    This is all a huge what if. But I don't see the threat any time soon. And if we are sub-par in March, I would not cry if we tanked.

    [/QUOTE]Neither are a possibility at this moment.[/QUOTE]

    What is the greater possibility though?

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    [=Major Cold;1494614]Its not technicality Tuesday is it? I think you know what I mean. Basement dwellers, lottery fodder. Under 25 wins.
    Yes I know what you mean, basement dwellers or not the Pacers were still losers, winning more or less didn't make any difference, my point is that I think that tanking at that time could have helped the team improve in the future, just look at all the Pacers picks from the "non tanking" years, how many of those picks are actually helping them right now? two? Roy and Paul George that's it.

    That is my point. Winning 30 vs 10 games would not matter if corporate sponsors, NBA decisions, the Simons sell/vacate INDY were ideal. If they are going to move, the will move regardless of a subpar season. Heck the Kings would have moved the moment Webber busted out if it weren't for the NBA, corporate sponsors, and a much more lucrative market opened up.
    So if winning 30 or 10 games don't matter why you and others are(were) worried that "tanking" would have taken the team to another place?

    Lets say the Nets never moved to Brooklyn. And Brooklyn were as wanting as Seattle in getting a team. I would think more owners (NOH, ATL, IND, CHA, MIL) would be more interested. Especially since the last CBA did nothing for them.....nothing.
    The new CBA is doing something for those teams, "stay mediocre and you make money not matter what as long as you don't go over the tax line".



    I don't. And I don't think they are a lock to be as secure as you think in 20 years. My point is if a more lucrative market opens up with NBA subsidies, along with the younger Simons taking over the estate, then a 25 year old building with lips stick won't alone keep the Pacers.
    Tanking in 2006/07,08,etc is not going to change the outcome of the Pacers in 20 years I don't think.

    This is all a huge what if. But I don't see the threat any time soon. And if we are sub-par in March, I would not cry if we tanked.
    The opportunity to tank has passed at this moment the best thing to do is stay the course and maybe win some second round games.

    What is the greater possibility though?
    Winning a championship in 10 years maybe if they rebuild the right way? either way I don't think either happens in a long long time.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes I know what you mean, basement dwellers or not the Pacers were still losers, winning more or less didn't make any difference, my point is that I think that tanking at that time could have helped the team improve in the future, just look at all the Pacers picks from the "non tanking" years, how many of those picks are actually helping them right now? two? Roy and Paul George that's it.
    Then again it could have been worse than it is now.

    So if winning 30 or 10 games don't matter why you and others are(were) worried that "tanking" would have taken the team to another place?
    I was wrong in thinking that. I thought the immediate result would be losing the team. But I still think that we are not a lock to have a team in 20 years.



    The new CBA is doing something for those teams, "stay mediocre and you make money not matter what as long as you don't go over the tax line".
    But what would any sane owner want. A small market team guaranteed to have some cash? Or a big market team guaranteed to have a lot of cash and a shot at a superstar?

    Tanking in 2006/07,08,etc is not going to change the outcome of the Pacers in 20 years I don't think.
    Either do I. Tanking and being the Clippers of the 90s, today will in fact make us a lose this team.

    The opportunity to tank has passed at this moment the best thing to do is stay the course and maybe win some second round games.
    You never know what happens with this team in the next 5 years. Granger could walk, Hill plateaus, Tyler taking over starting PF after West goes to chase a ring, PG is a sub-allstar player, Green is not that good, and Hibbert is skiddish for the remainder of the contract. That spells a 2006, 2007, 2008 win team. Hibbert can get a sinus infection and we could shut it down.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    Some thought we would win more games, growing pains and all, I was in that group.
    I was too. Which is why I didn't watch much of those seasons. Watching Troy Murphy, TJ Ford, Nesterovic, Murray, Dunleavy, Head ... firing up a bazillion three pointers... barf.

    Back at those prediction threads, where I was consistently forecasting the lowest number of wins... I think I hated those teams even more than the Artest-era. At least Artest kept a good team from reaching its potential. Those teams had no potential unless all of the minutes were going to Jack, Rush, Granger, TBD and Hibbert. Or as I used to say then, a "core" of TBD, TBD, TBD, TBD and Hibbert sounds more interesting...

    Some thought just having JOB in charge was tanking.
    The second sentence just makes me laugh. Unfortunately.
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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    The new CBA is doing something for those teams, "stay mediocre and you make money not matter what as long as you don't go over the tax line".
    I don't think the new CBA means what you think it means.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    The Pacers were never going to leave
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    The Pacers were never going to leave
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    The Pacers were never going to leave
    .
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    The Pacers were never going to leave

  22. #40
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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    O'Brien did more to PUSH the team outta Indy than keep it here.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    I still can't figure out how Jim gets credit for "rebuilding." You rebuild one of two ways. You either go after young players and develop them, or you trade/sign for vets that are going to be apart of your core. You "rebuild" the foundation of your franchise.

    The Pacers selected option number one, young players. If Jim was apart of the "rebuilding" process, then he wouldn't have restricted young players so much. He wouldn't bench them in favor of vets like James Posey. Had he benched them for vets, that were apart of the built core, then yes, he would have been going along with the rebuilding concept. But he did the opposite of a team that's trying to rebuild with youth. You rebuild a team with youth, not only by aquiring more youth/better youth, but also by developing them. A big part, not all but big part, of development is playing actual NBA games.


    Jim was the coach during the rebuilding process. That doesn't mean that he was apart of the rebuilding process.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I don't think the new CBA means what you think it means.
    In the last month and a half a book could be filled with VNZLAs "facts" about the Pacers and the NBA...
    Nothing in life worth having comes easy.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    The Pacers selected option number one, young players. If Jim was apart of the "rebuilding" process, then he wouldn't have restricted young players so much. He wouldn't bench them in favor of vets like James Posey. Had he benched them for vets, that were apart of the built core, then yes, he would have been going along with the rebuilding concept. But he did the opposite of a team that's trying to rebuild with youth. You rebuild a team with youth, not only by acquiring more youth/better youth, but also by developing them. A big part, not all but big part, of development is playing actual NBA games.
    The coach's job is to play the guys he thinks are best in the best way he can play them. He may not be competent in terms of making that decision, but once he has got his depth chart his job is NOT to bench the best guys in favor of giving significant minutes to the young guys (arguments about how much time is significant and how much time can be given without taking away from the guys the coach thinks earned their playing time aside, as they are essentially still agreeing the coach has to make that decision even if fans might disagree with his resulting choices).

    The FO sends a mixed message by providing players who are veterans and who, in the coach's KNOWN and PUBLIC opinion, deserve playing time over the young guys the FO supposedly wants to develop as quickly as possible. If the FO believes the young guys should have more time than the ones the coach thinks will do a better job, then they need to clean house of the vets OR find a coach who sees the skills of the young players the same way they do.

    In other words, setting young guys up to develop is well into the 90% range of being the FOs job in planning the strategy for a season. Tactically, the coach has to play the best he has when he has them - the remaining up to 10% however is that there ARE gray areas and choices that could increase playing time without sacrificing the end goal.
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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    The coach's job is to play the guys he thinks are best in the best way he can play them. He may not be competent in terms of making that decision, but once he has got his depth chart his job is NOT to bench the best guys in favor of giving significant minutes to the young guys (arguments about how much time is significant and how much time can be given without taking away from the guys the coach thinks earned their playing time aside, as they are essentially still agreeing the coach has to make that decision even if fans might disagree with his resulting choices).
    Coaches bench better players for younger players with more potential every single day. Thinking Jim should do the same, when the organization is clearly trying to bring in and develop younger players with more potential, isn't a very extreme position to hold.

    There are various coaching approaches. Playing to maximize your wins is one approach. Coaching for the future is another.

    I think Jim's coaching for max wins was just the wrong choice, especially when Vogel comes in and starts playing younger players and reaching the playoffs when Jim said it wasn't doable even with playing the supposed better, older players.

    I really wasn't trying to argue which approach is best, just saying that Jim wasn't apart of the rebuilding process.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    True, the front office could have taken away Jim's pet veterans. The front office sent a mixed message.

    Coaches are supposed to by myopic, they are focused on winning the current/next game. Not the big picture. And that's what Jim did. He cashed in some early-season wins with the stinky veterans while making sure the younger players didn't reach much of their "potential". The team could have been further along when Vogel took over, but that would have been because the youth were developed. Jim got everything he could out of the veterans (that stunk). That's not a bad coach, that's bad vision. That's my complaint with him. I didn't like his gimmicks either, but on the other hand Run-TMC was a gimmick that worked extremely well and helped Nellie's reputation as a coach, so we shouldn't summarily dismiss coaches with gimmicks.
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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    True, you can take away the coach's pet players to make sure he's developing the players you want developed or to see what their potential looks like with real game experience and a track record. OTOH, having some vet players for the young guys to look up to and emulate work habits and see how they manage their time and health during the season and off-season isn't necessarily a bad thing either. So if the coach overplays those guys and you've made your thoughts known to the coach about your plans for the team then that is on the coach.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    JOB saving the Pacers? He didn't keep casual fan interests. And I don't know about you guys but I've been following the Pacers for 20+ years (since I was 5) and his last season is the only one where I stopped caring. Posey on Amare/Griffin broke me.

    I don't see how anyone can argue he helped the Pacers franchise in any way. He didn't develop young guys and leaned on castoff vets to get us 30-40 wins. People don't care about 30-40 win teams anymore than 20 win teams. The 30-40 win range is NBA purgatory. No one cares and you (generally) don't get better.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by oxxo View Post
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    JOB saving the Pacers? He didn't keep casual fan interests. And I don't know about you guys but I've been following the Pacers for 20+ years (since I was 5) and his last season is the only one where I stopped caring. Posey on Amare/Griffin broke me.

    I don't see how anyone can argue he helped the Pacers franchise in any way. He didn't develop young guys and leaned on castoff vets to get us 30-40 wins. People don't care about 30-40 win teams anymore than 20 win teams. The 30-40 win range is NBA purgatory. No one cares and you (generally) don't get better.
    What was O'Brien's best record as a Pacer coach?
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    What was O'Brien's best record as a Pacer coach?
    His best record was 36 and 46 = NBA purgatory.

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    Default Re: Do you think JOB helped the Pacers stay in Indy?

    Absolutely not. How could anyone argue otherwise? Playing losing, illogical, and uninspiring basketball kept this team in Indy? Hah.

    That's all I'll say.

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