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Thread: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

  1. #51
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Hey!!! ... McBrick was a totally lost cause. It wasn't his job to build Hibbert's confidence, it was job to make him a basketball player. He did that. Granger has never played defense for anyone including a highly regarded Coach K. No one is going to be able to do that. He was a disiplinarian and those kind do not get love from the players. But those players needed that because they had walked all over Carlisle.... Give JOB this current team and a mandate to win and not rebuild and he would do fine and he would have a different approach. Bird always supported JOB and I am sure he still does.... ...
    Jim was needed for a year...maybe two. But not three. Jim was indeed needed to lay down the law. But the Pacers proceeded to trade all the problem children and by year #3 we had choir boys getting beaten down by the warden. He should never have started year #3.

    ...and no, Jim wouldn't win with this team. Roy wouldn't play as well for him...and Roy is the best player on the team. Also, last year Granger actually did start playing a little defense again for the first time in years....but he wouldn't have under Jim. Under Jim, it was all about the three and Granger was fine with that. Now more is being asked of the players. They are now expected to play a complete game instead of a flawed gimmick.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 08-19-2012 at 09:41 PM.

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  3. #52
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    You guys say OB won more games than he should, but as soon as he got canned, Vogel turned the team around. WITH THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS.

    You can counter that the team gave up on OB and that's why Vogel did so well. But Vogel did really well again the following year.

    Also, Vogel didn't just lead the same system and players with new attitudes. He changed all the stupid stuff OB was doing that all of us were complaining about. He emphasized defense and tough play. He cut out the silly bazillions of substitutions. He spoke positively of his players in public instead of negatively. He predicted wins rather than a losing season. He immediately spoke publicly about the need to take high percentage shots. He immediately benched Posey.

    You guys spin it however you want. The truth is completely obvious.
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

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  5. #53
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    You guys say OB won more games than he should, but as soon as he got canned, Vogel turned the team around. WITH THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS.

    You can counter that the team gave up on OB and that's why Vogel did so well. But Vogel did really well again the following year.

    Also, Vogel didn't just lead the same system and players with new attitudes. He changed all the stupid stuff OB was doing that all of us were complaining about. He emphasized defense and tough play. He cut out the silly bazillions of substitutions. He spoke positively of his players in public instead of negatively. He predicted wins rather than a losing season. He immediately spoke publicly about the need to take high percentage shots. He immediately benched Posey.

    You guys spin it however you want. The truth is completely obvious.
    You forgot that he ended the "Jack a 3" offensive scheme, we suddenly stopped giving games away with the 4th quarter, Slick wasn't openly questioning defensive man assignments (as he was when JOB the quitter put Posey on Blake Griffin, remember what I said about Jim quitting on his team?) on air, fans stopped booing the head coach of the team, and he started actually playing Paul, not to mention dressing BOTH Tyler and Josh (remember when Bird had to order JOB to play Tyler, so he responded not by doing the logical thing and benching the washed up scrub "stretch 4" who was shooting an ridiculous 88% from behind the arc, but by giving Posey MORE minutes and not dressing Josh period? ), but I would have thanked this post 1000 times just because for "He immediately benched Posey (and cut back TJ's minutes)."

    Let's face it, Jim the Quitter had a big role in Brandon Rush's struggles here (at least the part not self inflicted by B-Rush), he ALMOST ruined Roy's career, and god knows what would have happened to Paul had he not been canned. On the flip side, he extended James Posey's playing career a whole half season. I will give him some credit though, only he could have figured out a way to make another team want to trade for El Matador Troy.
    Last edited by Sandman21; 08-19-2012 at 10:22 PM.
    "Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel

    "And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
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  7. #54
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Thingfish View Post
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    There has always been this assumption that the JOB teams won more games than they should have. I think that's hogwash.
    I don't know. They had some 26-28 win- rosters over those couple of years that I refused to watch. He got them to the 30's somehow. Not the way I would have wanted to see it, relying on crappy veterans and stunting the growth of the younger guys. But he somehow got those awful rosters into the 30's. He gets some credit. Not much, but some.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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  9. #55
    future dragon trainer Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    And it still rubs me the wrong way when players openly deride JOB in the media. I understand the complaints, trust me, I just don't like the public airing of grievances. It's just unprofessional, it's been a year and a half, move on. And don't take any posts I've made in this thread of me being pro-JOB, I danced a jig when Larry finally fired him, I just don't like the crap slinging that so many players have taken part in. Think if JOB did multiple radio interviews bashing players he coached, this board would EXPLODE.

    But he hasn't said a peep. I literally haven't seen one single word quoted from him since he got fired. I give him credit for that.

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  11. #56
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    And it still rubs me the wrong way when players openly deride JOB in the media. I understand the complaints, trust me, I just don't like the public airing of grievances. It's just unprofessional, it's been a year and a half, move on. And don't take any posts I've made in this thread of me being pro-JOB, I danced a jig when Larry finally fired him, I just don't like the crap slinging that so many players have taken part in. Think if JOB did multiple radio interviews bashing players he coached, this board would EXPLODE.

    But he hasn't said a peep. I literally haven't seen one single word quoted from him since he got fired. I give him credit for that.
    I'll agree with you that JOB gets points for saying nothing post firing. But two things to note:

    - He said a bunch of stuff WHILE THE COACH that somewhat neutralizes your "credit"

    - Bird deserves most of the blame for those negative comments by players. It's like making people walk on hot coals and asking them not to say "ouch."
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    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  12. #57
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    I refuse to re-"litigate" the Jim O'Brien years. But I will say that my silence on this issue doesn't mean I've seen the light and now agree with you all. Just that I said all I needed to say on the topic over the years and I still feel the same way. If for some reason I change my mind on things, I will be sure to post.

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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    JOB's gimmicky offense won a few games. Enough games to get us over the 30 game hump. I can't say that is a good thing. Or that it is a bad thing.
    I will say that his heavily defensive rotations probably helped Hibbert in getting smarter defensively. And that is about it on that. It did not help Granger, D.Jones, or DC.

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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    JOB's gimmicky offense won a few games. Enough games to get us over the 30 game hump. I can't say that is a good thing. Or that it is a bad thing.
    I will say that his heavily defensive rotations probably helped Hibbert in getting smarter defensively. And that is about it on that. It did not help Granger, D.Jones, or DC.
    It helped Danny making him an All Star and the gimmick always worked at the end of the year when other teams but the Pacers didn't care about winning.

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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    It helped Danny making him an All Star and the gimmick always worked at the end of the year when other teams but the Pacers didn't care about winning.
    I was talking about defensive rotations. And the reward I was talking about was making us a better team. And not making individual players have accolades.

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    Member sam kaiserblade's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    I enjoyed the year when Jarrett Jack was here and the Pacers were competitive in each game. O'brien's final two years are another story BUT I am glad the Pacers won 30 plus games a year while they rebuilt. No way would I follow the team if they lost like the Bobcats have. The NBA needs to have relegation like Soccer. I wish the 2 worse teams in the league would get relegated to a lesser league each year to keep them from tanking.

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    Administrator Roaming Gnome's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Ahhh.... O'Brien discussion. Summer is just dragging right along.
    ...Still "flying casual"
    @roaminggnome74

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  20. #63
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kid Minneapolis View Post
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    I actually think JOB is better suited as an assistant.

    On another note, I find the word "reappear" a funny way to describe his return, as if he's some magician or he had literally become invisible.
    I took it more like a horror movie monster/villain.

    Poor DC, DJones and most of all, WTF does Bird have against Carlisle that he recommends JOB to him? (which you would have to assumed...)

    Freaking Rick just keeps getting crap deals.

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  22. #64
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I refuse to re-"litigate" the Jim O'Brien years. But I will say that my silence on this issue doesn't mean I've seen the light and now agree with you all. Just that I said all I needed to say on the topic over the years and I still feel the same way. If for some reason I change my mind on things, I will be sure to post.
    There is no need to re-litigate. The case has been decided.

    We are just dancing on the grave at this point...

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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    And it still rubs me the wrong way when players openly deride JOB in the media. I understand the complaints, trust me, I just don't like the public airing of grievances. It's just unprofessional, it's been a year and a half, move on. And don't take any posts I've made in this thread of me being pro-JOB, I danced a jig when Larry finally fired him, I just don't like the crap slinging that so many players have taken part in. Think if JOB did multiple radio interviews bashing players he coached, this board would EXPLODE.

    But he hasn't said a peep. I literally haven't seen one single word quoted from him since he got fired. I give him credit for that.
    I think it really says what type of coach he is, that the players have done this.

    For the most part, unless they are superstars, players don't publicly say anything about a coach.
    For the most part, the Pacers players that dealt with him were 3/4 year college players, who were both intelligent and professional.

    And yet I've seen Roy, Brandon, DC, PG, Tyler (FREAKING TYLER), Danny, Dun, and I'm pretty sure Josh and TJ all "throw mud"

    At some point, you just have to figure it was "that bad."

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  25. #66
    Administrator Unclebuck's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sookie View Post
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    I think it really says what type of coach he is, that the players have done this.

    For the most part, unless they are superstars, players don't publicly say anything about a coach.
    For the most part, the Pacers players that dealt with him were 3/4 year college players, who were both intelligent and professional.

    And yet I've seen Roy, Brandon, DC, PG, Tyler (FREAKING TYLER), Danny, Dun, and I'm pretty sure Josh and TJ all "throw mud"

    At some point, you just have to figure it was "that bad."

    I don't agree with that at all. Remember all the negative comments once Carlisle left and from former Pacer players who were traded. Players critisize their former coach all the time. This is the NBA. It happened after Larry Brown left, happened after Isiah left. Only time I don't remember it happening here is when Bird left, but the team was changed so much that summer and they did just get to the NBA Finals.

    what is unusual is for a player to be critical of their current coach. But former coach - it is open sesason

    Was it worse with JOB, maybe, but I don't see it that much worse. Seemed pretty typical to me
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 08-21-2012 at 08:59 AM.

  26. #67
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    You guys say OB won more games than he should, but as soon as he got canned, Vogel turned the team around. WITH THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS.

    You can counter that the team gave up on OB and that's why Vogel did so well. But Vogel did really well again the following year.
    They were 20-18 with an easier schedule the rest of the way. And yes the players gave up on O'Brien. So 20-18 isn't that big of a deal.

    I was not a believer in Vogel at all until the 2011 playoff series against the Bulls, that is what changed my mind about him. The February, March and April regular season was not impressive to me really.

  27. #68
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    You knew it was bad during the Season We Do Not Discuss when even the Mayor, Fred Hoiberg, was bashing Larry Brown after Brown quit. The lifecycle of an NBA coach is short. This is nothing new.

  28. #69
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    You guys say OB won more games than he should, but as soon as he got canned, Vogel turned the team around. WITH THE EXACT SAME PLAYERS.

    You can counter that the team gave up on OB and that's why Vogel did so well. But Vogel did really well again the following year.

    Also, Vogel didn't just lead the same system and players with new attitudes. He changed all the stupid stuff OB was doing that all of us were complaining about. He emphasized defense and tough play. He cut out the silly bazillions of substitutions. He spoke positively of his players in public instead of negatively. He predicted wins rather than a losing season. He immediately spoke publicly about the need to take high percentage shots. He immediately benched Posey.

    You guys spin it however you want. The truth is completely obvious.
    His 3rd year the expectations were higher. We were to make the playoffs and that was voiced from Bird. And it wasn't "I hope to one day be in the playoff". It was "I expect us to be in the playoffs". We got DC and Paul George. Hibbert was expected to step up. Tyler was expected to play for the entire season.

    So please do not assume we had the same team in all three years with JOB. PG's first year was JOB's best, Jack's only year was the second, and Watson was the worst (granted I blame JOB for not getting TJ acclimated better).

    Vogel didn't coach a rag tag bunch. They were suppose to get there in the first place. Vogel just erased the debt that the West Coast trip caused.

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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    I knew UB was still in love with JOB I knew it.

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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    His 3rd year the expectations were higher. We were to make the playoffs and that was voiced from Bird. And it wasn't "I hope to one day be in the playoff". It was "I expect us to be in the playoffs". We got DC and Paul George. Hibbert was expected to step up. Tyler was expected to play for the entire season.

    So please do not assume we had the same team in all three years with JOB. PG's first year was JOB's best, Jack's only year was the second, and Watson was the worst (granted I blame JOB for not getting TJ acclimated better).

    Vogel didn't coach a rag tag bunch. They were suppose to get there in the first place. Vogel just erased the debt that the West Coast trip caused.
    I think you mean his 4th year.

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  32. #72
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I think you mean his 4th year.
    Yeah his 4th year. Honestly the 3rd and 4th kinda ran together. I supported him in the 3rd year, but that support was waning. I did not want him back in the 4th year, but there was not a clear guy (Shaw maybe) out there. But the January of 2010 was the biggest disappointment as a Pacer fan.

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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Major, Jim said right before he was fired that the Pacers couldn't make the playoffs. He was then let go, Vogel took over, and as we all know, made the playoffs. So yes, it was literally the exact same roster, because it was only about a month and a half between Jim putting his foot in his mouth and the Pacers shoving it in further for him.
    Last edited by Since86; 08-21-2012 at 12:20 PM.

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  36. #74
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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Major, Jim said right before he was fired that the Pacers couldn't make the playoffs. He was then let go, Vogel took over, and as we all know, made the playoffs. So yes, it was literally the exact same roster, because it was only about a month and a half between Jim putting his foot in his mouth and the Pacers shoving it further for him.
    Regardless what Jim said, the expectation was for them to make the playoffs. The team was better than previous years, or in a better climate to make the playoffs. I understand that Vogel had the same roster. I am not debating that. What I am saying is that Vogel did not exceed preseason expediencies, until the Bulls series.

    Jim failed to take a better roster to the playoffs. When he (and SVG) said they were not good enough, or they were as equally as bad as previous years.

    No the 10-11 Pacers were better than the 09-10, 08-09, and the 07-08. And to say that those teams should have made the playoffs is farce. They were horrible grouped together with no chemistry (I blame JOB for this). And if it weren't for the gimmicks of JOB they would have been in the top 6 pick area. There was no sustainable model to JOB's winning. It was a flash in the pan. And I do not fault him. He was hired to win, not to lose.

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    Default Re: JOB to reappear as Mavs assistant coach?

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    And it still rubs me the wrong way when players openly deride JOB in the media. I understand the complaints, trust me, I just don't like the public airing of grievances. It's just unprofessional, it's been a year and a half, move on. And don't take any posts I've made in this thread of me being pro-JOB, I danced a jig when Larry finally fired him, I just don't like the crap slinging that so many players have taken part in. Think if JOB did multiple radio interviews bashing players he coached, this board would EXPLODE.

    But he hasn't said a peep. I literally haven't seen one single word quoted from him since he got fired. I give him credit for that.
    Usually I would be in the same boat as you.

    However, O'Brien was such a prick about them in the media, that I think he deserves every last word spoken about him.

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