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Thread: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Maybe you didn't understand what I wrote.

    Tim Duncan is almost universally considered the greatest power forward to ever play the game. While Garnett is an all time great player he is not even considered the 2nd or 3rd best to play the 4 (Malone, Barkley). Same goes with Orlando, Dwight is the greates of this generation he probably is not even considered top 5 in Centers. LeBron has played both the 2 & 3 spot so depending on where you want to put him he may be the 3rd best shooting guards of all time (Jordan, Bryant) and I'm not sure where he would rank at the 3.

    Not to mention the Spurs did this after already having Robinson on the team.

    There is no need for a lot of back and forth here because for the most part I agree with you, but I'm just saying you can't discount the fact that they did have Duncan and prior to having Duncan they were never anything other than a very good team (Like the Pacers). As someone said draft Kieth Van Horn and I don't think the Spurs win one title let alone have the decade of excellent play that they have.
    Yeah but do you think Duncan without all those rings gets to get called "the best power forward of all times"? if SA doesn't put a great team around him I don't think he gets called that.

    I also expect Howard and Lebron to be at least top five of all times in something.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yeah but do you think Duncan without all those rings gets to get called "the best power forward of all times"? if SA doesn't put a great team around him I don't think he gets called that.

    I also expect Howard and Lebron to be at least top five of all times in something.
    LeBron for sure but it's going to be very hard for Dwight to get up there.

    Wilt
    Shaq
    Hakeem
    Russell
    Robinson
    Ewing

    That's six right there that I don't think he will be better than.


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    LeBron for sure but it's going to be very hard for Dwight to get up there.

    Wilt
    Shaq
    Hakeem
    Russell
    Robinson
    Jabbar
    Ewing

    That's right 7 there that I don't think he will be better than.
    Fixed

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I disagreed with much of your front office criticisms in recent years, but I agree 100% that this was a giant snoozer of an off-season for the Pacers. We had the opportunity to at least *attempt* to make a splash, but the only improvements we made were changing up the bench a bit. Maybe we succeed in bringing a big name here, maybe we don't. But it would have been nice to have *tried*. This was the year to do it as we won't have that opportunity with cap space in the near future.

    It cannot be denied that several good teams in the East made better improvements to their teams than the Pacers. The world champs got Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis who you know will come in handy with some buckets in the playoffs. The Knicks lost Lin, but Felton, Kidd, and Camby aren't exactly scraps. That team is much more talented than the Pacers. Their only question is chemistry. Boston also made some very nice improvements to their team and if they are healthy, they will be an even better team than the one that almost went to the Finals. The Nets got better with the Johnson deal and if Lopez is healthy all year then they will be tough. The Sixers added freaking Bynum in a steal of a trade. God only knows how deadly he'll be as the focal point of an offense.

    Teams all over the East made far better improvements to their teams than the Pacers did. We will have a tough time winning a playoff series.
    I don't see New Yorks moves as an improvement. Lin is much more effective than Kidd or Felton (who was incredibly terrible last season) and though Camby is a good backup center he's pushing 40.

    Philly improved, but they did lose their leading scorer and best defender and playmaker, alot rides on huge improvements to Holiday and Turner.

    Boston is better, no doubt, but they have questions too regarding age. Nets will be a decent team, we'll see how good in the long run, they don't have a very good front court, especially defensively, but improved for sure.

    The East has improved, but the Pacers should be better on the bench and due to West being healthy all year long, not to mention refinements and leaps in PG and Hibberts games. Though the East is better, it isn't like we've been leapfrogged imo. What was true last season is still true. Miami is better than we are, and i'd take Boston over us, for at least next season. Anyone else in the East though? I think we can give a series to, and, stand at least a 50/50 chance of beating in the playoffs.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    I disagreed with much of your front office criticisms in recent years, but I agree 100% that this was a giant snoozer of an off-season for the Pacers. We had the opportunity to at least *attempt* to make a splash, but the only improvements we made were changing up the bench a bit. Maybe we succeed in bringing a big name here, maybe we don't. But it would have been nice to have *tried*. This was the year to do it as we won't have that opportunity with cap space in the near future.

    It cannot be denied that several good teams in the East made better improvements to their teams than the Pacers. The world champs got Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis who you know will come in handy with some buckets in the playoffs. The Knicks lost Lin, but Felton, Kidd, and Camby aren't exactly scraps. That team is much more talented than the Pacers. Their only question is chemistry. Boston also made some very nice improvements to their team and if they are healthy, they will be an even better team than the one that almost went to the Finals. The Nets got better with the Johnson deal and if Lopez is healthy all year then they will be tough. The Sixers added freaking Bynum in a steal of a trade. God only knows how deadly he'll be as the focal point of an offense.

    Teams all over the East made far better improvements to their teams than the Pacers did. We will have a tough time winning a playoff series.
    What makes certain posters so certain that the Pacers didbt Try to make a big splash? There were countless number of FA who we were linked to being interested in. But even so, just because something isn't made public doesn't mean we didn't necessarily make an attempt to sign someone.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    What makes certain posters so certain that the Pacers didbt Try to make a big splash? There were countless number of FA who we were linked to being interested in. But even so, just because something isn't made public doesn't mean we didn't necessarily make an attempt to sign someone.
    Saying that they just wanted to keep the starters and fix the bench doesn't tell me that they someway somehow wanted to make a "big splash".

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Jose Slaughter View Post
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    Fixed


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Saying that they just wanted to keep the starters and fix the bench doesn't tell me that they someway somehow wanted to make a "big splash".
    Touché. I guess what I was trying to say was, if a realistic opportunity to improve our team presented itself, idk why the Pacers or any other team would decide to not make that move. It's just not logical I guess.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Saying that they just wanted to keep the starters and fix the bench doesn't tell me that they someway somehow wanted to make a "big splash".
    Isn't it possible they attempted it and failed, but the smart PR move is to say they only tried to fix the bench.?
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  14. #185
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    i keep trying to believe that we can be the 2004 pistons who won with out no real star, but damn the super teams are too crazy! lol

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    You conveniently forget the teams that are horrible for multiple years without winning the lottery. Typically there are only 1 maybe 2 game changers in a draft and you can go years being the worst team in the league without getting one. Building the right way gave us the 5th best record in the league and an improving team. I prefer that to assembling a crappy team and praying for divine intervention. Then again a lot of people do prefer to have crap to complain about around here. There are 32 teams, fans should appreciate more than just the one with the trophy.
    This all comes down to whether you are satisfied with good teams that compete ok in the playoffs vs having a dynasty with multiple championships. To win championships you have little chance unless you pick in the top 5 slots...or you are a destination city. It's just about impossible otherwise. The Bulls dynasty was MJ who was picked #3. San Antonio's was Duncan picked at #1. Houston won two titles with Olajuwon picked #1. LA has won 5 largely because they are LA and guys like Shaq (who was a #1 pick) decide to make their home there.

    I think a few here misunderstand. I'm not saying it's the answer to avoiding mediocrity. I am saying that if you want an NBA championship EVER...EVER...you almost have to tank to get the pick in a small market like Indy.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    There are enough fans frustrated over this off season that I think the F.O. should be open about what they tried to do if they did try to go after any impact players or big names. It would be nice to know if they really tried and then you could be a little more understanding. If what we ended up with was the plan all along then all I can say is that's poor management by our F.O.
    If we weren't going to go after the top 2 pg's then I wish we would have put an offer on the table to the 3rd. best player available which was Kaman. Kaman had already shown interest in meeting with the team and I think he could have been added before signing Hill and Hibbert. The additional money spent on Kaman would have won more games for us, and I don't think the bench changes we've made will win more games for us then last year. Ian, DJ and Green just aren't that much of an improvement over Lou, DC, and Barbosa.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by RLeWorm View Post
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    i keep trying to believe that we can be the 2004 pistons who won with out no real star, but damn the super teams are too crazy! lol
    Think about this for a moment. The Pistons supposedly had no real star, but look where their best players (except Big Ben) were picked:

    Derrick Colemen - #1
    Rasheed Wallace - #2
    Antonio McDyess - #2
    Chauncey Billups - #3
    Rip Hamilton - #7

    Those are good picks and very good all-star calibre players. Still, I agree they won as a team because they had no MJ, Kobe, Shaq or LeBron type of dominant superstar. Yet it still shows just how important those high picks are to acquire. Can we make the right trades to get this done in Indy? I suppose it's possible.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Sollozzo View Post
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    Haven't people been beating the "Boston is done" drum since like 2009? Yet they keep winning and going on deep playoff runs. They had the opportunity to play a game 6 at home that would have put them in the NBA Finals had they won. Unfortunately for them, one of the greatest players of all time played what was probably the greatest game of his career. Then in game 7 on the road, they led for a good chunk of the game before finally wearing out in the fourth.

    Post-All Star break Boston was a better team than the Pacers last year because they had three players who were better than any single player on the Pacers with Rondo, KG, and Pierce. I don't see how you can be better than a team that has three players that are better than anyone on your roster. Pierce often looked sluggish against Miami, but that was mostly because chasing Lebron around wore him out. There is no player on the Pacers who would come close to exhausting him like that, which means that he would light us up on the offensive end.

    It all comes down to KG and Pierce. If age causes them to take a significant step backward, then the Pacers are probably a better team. But if those two can come close to equaling their production of last year then they are an even better team than the one that was a hair away from the Finals. Jason Terry is better than Ray Allen at this point and is two years younger. Bradley was a huge contributor down the stretch for them last season and stole Ray's spot, but he missed the Miami series. If Jeff Green can give them something then that will be a very nice addition. Plus they drafted well.
    Pierce isn't going to light up the Pacers. We have guys who can slow his old legs down. Garnett scares nobody. Jason Terry's shooting percentages are horrible compared to Ray Allen's. The only reason he scored 15ppg to Allen's 14ppg is because he shoots more...and Terry is getting old too. 35 year old SG's who are 6'2" become pretty easy to guard, pretty quickly. Combine that with his defense which will be even worse...Terry is going to be a liability soon.

    The fact is...Boston is old and getting very old. Retirement old, ok? The Pacers split with them last year and will be a year better. Boston will be worse. Boston barely got by Atlanta and the Sixers took them 7 games and almost out of the playoffs. Will they be a threat to the Pacers? Sure. Will many people consider them favorites over the Pacers? Yes, but they aren't going to be as good. I will admit that Rondo is better than any Pacer including Hibbert. But they are sliding and I don't think they have another year where they are better than the Pacers. That tank is empty...

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Pierce isn't going to light up the Pacers. We have guys who can slow his old legs down. Garnett scares nobody. Jason Terry's shooting percentages are horrible compared to Ray Allen's. The only reason he scored 15ppg to Allen's 14ppg is because he shoots more...and Terry is getting old too. 35 year old SG's who are 6'2" become pretty easy to guard, pretty quickly. Combine that with his defense which will be even worse...Terry is going to be a liability soon.

    The fact is...Boston is old and getting very old. Retirement old, ok? The Pacers split with them last year and will be a year better. Boston will be worse. Boston barely got by Atlanta and the Sixers took them 7 games and almost out of the playoffs. Will they be a threat to the Pacers? Sure. Will many people consider them favorites over the Pacers? Yes, but they aren't going to be as good. I will admit that Rondo is better than any Pacer including Hibbert. But they are sliding and I don't think they have another year where they are better than the Pacers. That tank is empty...
    agree! Still don't know why analysts think the Celtics are still threats and they are even ranked higher than us in some peoples mind. The Celtics don't scare me one bit! They are too old and not enough fire power. They will finish 5-8 in the Eastern Conference. Boston's window has been closed for the past 2 years.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Staverman View Post
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    You can probably take LA off that list in about 10 years when California's finances catch up with Greece. When players realize that along with the sunshine and hot women they have to pay 50% of their income in state taxes alone Indiana might start looking better.
    Hasn't helped Orlando THAT much (no State taxes). Maybe Miami, but I doubt LJames and Bosh go there without Wade being there. Helps me, though. Loves me some No State Tax!

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Of all the gripes about the offseason that are brought up I'm surprised Hill's signing isn't a bigger one. It's my biggest problem with the summer by far. It's nothing against Hill, I like him a good bit as a player, but he was obviously restricted. Let him sign an offer sheet somewhere. We were comfortable doing it with Roy knowing (they HAD to know) he'd get a max offer, but not Hill? Instead you willingly give him too long of a deal for too much money while having an immediate replacement in house at the time that had ample experience with a year left on his piddly cheap rookie deal.

    I don't think it was done solely to justify trading for him (and giving up too much in the process), but I do think it absolutely played a role in the decision.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Of all the gripes about the offseason that are brought up I'm surprised Hill's signing isn't a bigger one. It's my biggest problem with the summer by far. It's nothing against Hill, I like him a good bit as a player, but he was obviously restricted. Let him sign an offer sheet somewhere. We were comfortable doing it with Roy knowing (they HAD to know) he'd get a max offer, but not Hill? Instead you willingly give him too long of a deal for too much money while having an immediate replacement in house at the time that had ample experience with a year left on his piddly cheap rookie deal.

    I don't think it was done solely to justify trading for him (and giving up too much in the process), but I do think it absolutely played a role in the decision.
    I couldn't agree more. There was no way he was getting more then an MLE type offer from any other team, so the Pacers shouldn't have offered more then that. It would have been better to wait and match. The cap space saved by waiting would have left us open to go after amnestied players as well.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I couldn't agree more. There was no way he was getting more then an MLE type offer from any other team, so the Pacers shouldn't have offered more then that. It would have been better to wait and match. The cap space saved by waiting would have left us open to go after amnestied players as well.
    To me I think that is the single most frustrating thing about this off season. One day, one lousy day and we could have had Elton Brand for a little more than 2 million dollars or if we would have waited about a week we could have had Louis Scola for even less. Either of them would have been better than either of the backups we have now.

    Can you imagine Roy going to the bench and coming in with Brand & West? I know they are both getting long in the tooth but Brand still has game. He certainly has more game than Tyler & I can only assume he still has more than Ian & Plumlee.

    That is the one thing I just can't understand why did they have to sign both of them on that day and not wait till the amnestied players could be had on the cheap.

    Heck you could make a real argument that Scola might have pushed West for starters min. if not the starting position.


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    To me I think that is the single most frustrating thing about this off season. One day, one lousy day and we could have had Elton Brand for a little more than 2 million dollars or if we would have waited about a week we could have had Louis Scola for even less. Either of them would have been better than either of the backups we have now.

    Can you imagine Roy going to the bench and coming in with Brand & West? I know they are both getting long in the tooth but Brand still has game. He certainly has more game than Tyler & I can only assume he still has more than Ian & Plumlee.

    That is the one thing I just can't understand why did they have to sign both of them on that day and not wait till the amnestied players could be had on the cheap.

    Heck you could make a real argument that Scola might have pushed West for starters min. if not the starting position.
    This is the white elephant in the room for the summer. Why hasn't Wells written an article on this—to either confirm or dispel the concerns?
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    To me I think that is the single most frustrating thing about this off season. One day, one lousy day and we could have had Elton Brand for a little more than 2 million dollars or if we would have waited about a week we could have had Louis Scola for even less. Either of them would have been better than either of the backups we have now.

    Can you imagine Roy going to the bench and coming in with Brand & West? I know they are both getting long in the tooth but Brand still has game. He certainly has more game than Tyler & I can only assume he still has more than Ian & Plumlee.

    That is the one thing I just can't understand why did they have to sign both of them on that day and not wait till the amnestied players could be had on the cheap.

    Heck you could make a real argument that Scola might have pushed West for starters min. if not the starting position.
    Scola's contract is around $4.5 million per year at three years. He's already 32 and plays below the rim. Brand is 33. We already have maybe the slowest starting front court in the league, I just don't see how the Pacers match up with anyone adding another crafty slow guy. I don't love everything about Ian's game, and Scola and Brand are right now absolutely better players. But it's not about collecting good players, it's about getting guys that fit.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    To me even if they had traded Tyler and pick for Scola I would have been happy, not even waiting to see if they could have got him out of the amnesty pool is going to **** me off for a long time.

    Why create all that cap space to "get into deals" and "get players that are getting amnesty" if your plan is not to get either, they never helped in a deal to get a free player and didn't get into amnesty players.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Scola's contract is around $4.5 million per year at three years. He's already 32 and plays below the rim. Brand is 33. We already have maybe the slowest starting front court in the league, I just don't see how the Pacers match up with anyone adding another crafty slow guy. I don't love everything about Ian's game, and Scola and Brand are right now absolutely better players. But it's not about collecting good players, it's about getting guys that fit.
    Basically

    Not getting Brand doesn't bother me at all. Stick a fork in him, he looks done.

    Not as sure about Scola. All last year I kept reading reports that he has slowed down. If so, then it is a 50/50 call on him. If he has not, then I would love to have him.

    Wasn't the problem with Scola that the Pacers had already signed Roy and Hill? If so, then they couldn't sign them, then they couldn't sign them.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Why would Roy and Hill's agent wait any longer to be signed though? Yeah itd be nice to put off signing them for as long as possible so that we can try and make other deals, but this is a biz and they probably wanted to get signed ASAP. Hell they already waited a week into FA before signing with other teams. The pacers let it be known that they has till Friday to make their other moves before they needed to sign Roy and Hill back.

    Also, how are people going to make gripes about the Pacers only looking toninpeove their bench, and then be mad because they didn't get old, slow, amnestied players that would have played off the bench. Neither Brand nor Scola would be too much of a fit for our team defensively Our frontline is already slow and unathletic as it is, why add another shorter, slower PF that can only play C against certain teams. The pacers are trying to get younger and more athletic, signing either of these guys would have only been the opposite.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Ace E.Anderson;1494449]Why would Roy and Hill's agent wait any longer to be signed though? Yeah itd be nice to put off signing them for as long as possible so that we can try and make other deals, but this is a biz and they probably wanted to get signed ASAP. Hell they already waited a week into FA before signing with other teams. The pacers let it be known that they has till Friday to make their other moves before they needed to sign Roy and Hill back.
    All they had to do was wait another day and get either player for free, I would also like to point out that many here were giving those who were "desperate" crap because "the Pacers had the whole summer to make something happen".


    Also, how are people going to make gripes about the Pacers only looking toninpeove their bench, and then be mad because they didn't get old, slow, amnestied players that would have played off the bench. Neither Brand nor Scola would be too much of a fit for our team defensively Our frontline is already slow and unathletic as it is, why add another shorter, slower PF that can only play C against certain teams. The pacers are trying to get younger and more athletic, signing either of these guys would have only been the opposite.
    If you have an opportunity to ad high quality players to your team for free you do it not matter what.

    Don't trade for Ian and give him that long contract, don't sign Green, keep DJ/DC/Barbosa and only sign Scola and Brand and the bench would have been better than the new bench.

    DC,Barbosa,DJ,Scola and Brand >> DJ,Lance,Green,Tyler,Ian in my opinion.

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