Page 6 of 11 FirstFirst ... 2345678910 ... LastLast
Results 126 to 150 of 252

Thread: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

  1. #126
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    5,444

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The Colts, Green Bay, Tampa Bay Bucaneers, the Florida Marlins, yes the NBA has been rewarding big markets lately, but by the same token it's a bit of a chicken or an egg scenario can't you also just say the big market teams have been well run?

    Let's look at some of the small market NBA teams that have been successful, the Pacers of the 90's, the Nets of the early 2000s, the Utah Jazz of the 80s and 90s, the Oklahoma City Thunder currently, the Spurs for the last 15 years. Yes, the Spurs are the only team that won a title but all of those squads made the finals. Making the finals is a pretty good start to winning a title.

    At what point do we accept that the Lakers are in a good market, but maybe, just maybe they have also been very well run? If being in a big market was all it took how do you explain New York, the Bulls from 1998 to 2008, the Clippers forever, the Warriors (they have Oakland AND San Francisco to draw from), Toronto (a HUGE market), being in a big market might mean something but it definitely doesn't mean everything. Management matters and whether anyone here wants to admit it or not, the Lakers, the Celtics, the Heat, all these teams have been very well run to get where they have been recently. Look at the Celtics specifically KG didn't even WANT to go there until Ainge made the move to bring Ray Allen in, it's not like KG was like ZOMG ZOMG THE CELTICS WANT ME AND I'M STUCK IN MINNY I MUST GO NOW. No, until they got Ray, KG was like, Boston is a cool city, but you know what I'm all good in Minnesota unless they get better.
    Well when I mentioned the larger markets I only meant in the NBA. The NFL has long shattered the idea that only large markets work well. Also, the Nets are in a fairly large market, obviously not NY or LA but much bigger than a lot of other markets.

    However, I actually agree with you on a lot of your post. I've always felt that teams like the Lakers are ran VERY well. I'm a big believer that you make your own luck, and the Lakers have definitely done that over the past 30 years or so. They get the very best when it comes to their FO, as well as their coaching staff. When you add those factors to the fact that they also are VERY aggressive, they easily make their own success.

    With that said, it makes it a lot easier to do these things when 1. your television market helps the money flowing in, and 2. your owner is willing to go well over the luxury tax threshold and will spend inordinate amounts of cash in order to keep your team in championship contention. These are the only true advantage I see a bigger market team has over a smaller market team.

  2. #127
    Professional Beachcomber mildlysane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Port Charlotte, Florida
    Age
    43
    Posts
    1,269
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    How are we defining small market? Tampa Bay area has 4 million+ people in/around it and Orlando is only an hour or so away with another 2 million+. The Miami Marlins are in the Miami area with 4 million+ in the area. What is the dividing line?

  3. #128
    Gold Stagger Hoop's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Greenwood
    Posts
    4,538
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Nice well thought out post mattie. I agree with a great deal of it, and some I'd don't agree, I still have some optimism left.

    It's just nice to read a real discussion, except for a few that has to constantly make ridiculous hyperbole statements saying how bad player X is and how every other playoff team in the league has a better roster than us.
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

  4. #129
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,029

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Well when I mentioned the larger markets I only meant in the NBA. The NFL has long shattered the idea that only large markets work well. Also, the Nets are in a fairly large market, obviously not NY or LA but much bigger than a lot of other markets.

    However, I actually agree with you on a lot of your post. I've always felt that teams like the Lakers are ran VERY well. I'm a big believer that you make your own luck, and the Lakers have definitely done that over the past 30 years or so. They get the very best when it comes to their FO, as well as their coaching staff. When you add those factors to the fact that they also are VERY aggressive, they easily make their own success.

    With that said, it makes it a lot easier to do these things when 1. your television market helps the money flowing in, and 2. your owner is willing to go well over the luxury tax threshold and will spend inordinate amounts of cash in order to keep your team in championship contention. These are the only true advantage I see a bigger market team has over a smaller market team.
    Ok well the Simons have plenty of money to spend and showed throughout the 90s and early 2000s that they are more than willing to spend on players to win, so I don't think that is a disadvantage you could say the Pacers have

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  5. #130
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,029

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by mildlysane View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How are we defining small market? Tampa Bay area has 4 million+ people in/around it and Orlando is only an hour or so away with another 2 million+. The Miami Marlins are in the Miami area with 4 million+ in the area. What is the dividing line?
    I don't know that it has ever been defined. I mean in all reality when you consider how easy it is for suburbs and the metro area around Indy to get downtown the Pacers actually have a pretty large market to pull from.

    I mean the Colts and Jax are largely regarded as the two smallest markets in the NFL other than Green Bay, but in terms of incorporated cities in the US they are 11th and 12th on that list, bigger than a place like San Francisco, but SF has more surrounding population. Within Indy's "city limits" there are more people than within the "city limits" of SF, Boston, Charlotte, Detroit, Memphis, Seattle, Denver, Baltimore.

    I think more than big market, you're dealing with things like team history, management, weather... how many people a city has doesn't really matter IMO. If the Timberwolves had won 16 NBA championships and were still well run like the Lakers are lots of players would want to play for them too.

    In a lot of ways, just like kids playing college ball want to play at UK, KU, UNC, Duke, IU, UCLA, etc. the average basketball player is probably going to be influenced to want to play for the Lakers, Celtics, etc. heck even Bynum is pretty pumped to be with the 76ers. Certain franchise names are worth more and that has little to do with market and a lot more to do with past success, but it's not impossible to build a team even with no history behind the franchise.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 08-17-2012 at 04:13 PM.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  6. The Following User Says Thank You to Trader Joe For This Useful Post:


  7. #131
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    29
    Posts
    5,941

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't know that it has ever been defined. I mean in all reality when you consider how easy it is for suburbs and the metro area around Indy to get downtown the Pacers actually have a pretty large market to pull from.

    I mean the Colts and Jax are largely regarded as the two smallest markets in the NFL other than Green Bay, but in terms of incorporated cities in the US they are 11th and 12th on that list, bigger than a place like San Francisco, but SF has more surrounding population. Within Indy's "city limits" there are more people than within the "city limits" of SF, Boston, Charlotte, Detroit, Memphis, Seattle, Denver, Baltimore.

    I think more than big market, you're dealing with things like team history, management, weather... how many people a city has doesn't really matter IMO. If the Timberwolves had won 16 NBA championships and were still well run like the Lakers are lots of players would want to play for them too.

    In a lot of ways, just like kids playing college ball want to play at UK, KU, UNC, Duke, IU, UCLA, etc. the average basketball player is probably going to be influenced to want to play for the Lakers, Celtics, etc. heck even Bynum is pretty pumped to be with the 76ers. Certain franchise names are worth more and that has little to do with market and a lot more to do with past success, but it's not impossible to build a team even with no history behind the franchise.
    Random thought from someone who lives 2 minutes from jaguars stadium: Jacksonville is a huge city that is hard core spread out (at one time I heard it was the largest square footage city in the nation, and driving from one side to the other could take hours.....dont know if that is true or not). That said, one thing I do know is the jags sucked at attracting fans to come to games, people just did not want to drive.

    Of course, part of that could have nothing to do with "market size" and everything to do with "college football is a religion" down there. Hell, Florida - Georgia was one huge block party, and possible just as large a game (if not bigger) then Dallas - Washington from the local area.


    Random thought from a Redskins fan: Large market or not, IMO a competent front office (and a little bit of luck) is more important then location.

  8. #132
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    33
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Random thought from a Redskins fan: Large market or not, IMO a competent front office (and a little bit of luck) is more important then location.
    No doubt, at this moment I'm waiting for SA to start the rebuilding process to see how they school "small market teams" in how to rebuild the right way.

  9. #133
    DIET COKE! Trader Joe's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Troll Hunting
    Age
    26
    Posts
    31,029

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    No doubt, at this moment I'm waiting for SA to start the rebuilding process to see how they school "small market teams" in how to rebuild the right way.
    Heh, I think the part where you and I differ is I don't think things are going too poorly with how we're being run. Granted this summer was not up to last year's, but I still could see some logic behind it. I'm kind of waiting to the trade deadline of this season to reserve judgement.

    “WE NEVER SURRENDER, WE NEVER GIVE UP, WE KEEP ATTACKING”- Frank Vogel
    momentarygodsblog.com https://twitter.com/momentarygods

  10. #134
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Free Lance!
    Posts
    8,097

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    I don't think you can lump Orlando and Tampa in the same market in any kind of way. Almost no one is driving from one city to the other to watch a game. I've lived in Orlando.

    There may be other markets where this applies, but not Orlando/Tampa.
    .

    .

    .

    .


    “People talk about how quiet he [McKey] is, but he’s really been helpful. He gives a lot of insight to players in how to guard certain teams and what their weaknesses are. The whole team listens to him, and it makes my job a lot easier. Having players like him is what pro basketball is all about for me.” —Larry Brown

  11. #135
    Formerly QuickRelease NapTonius Monk's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    Indianapolis, IN
    Posts
    4,778

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Anytime somebody uses the "small market bs" as an excuse somebody in the Pacers front office smiles, they have done a good job in making people believe that.

    The more People believe that bs the less pressure the Pacers FO has to deliver a championship.
    Especially since San Antonio completely obliterates that excuse.

  12. The Following User Says Thank You to NapTonius Monk For This Useful Post:


  13. #136
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,227

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by QuickRelease View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Especially since San Antonio completely obliterates that excuse.
    It's pretty weird that one team "obliterates" the excuse. I would think that you'd need a lot more examples to "obliterate" it. It's about as equivalant of saying that Candace Parker obliterates the notion that women can't jump. One example, or even 2, doesn't make a case.

  14. The Following 6 Users Say Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:


  15. #137
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,227

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    No doubt, at this moment I'm waiting for SA to start the rebuilding process to see how they school "small market teams" in how to rebuild the right way.
    By landing a consensus top pick is how you rebuild the right way. If you don't get one, you're behind the 8-ball.

  16. #138
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    21,227

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Large markets are just more attractive for star players. IT allows them to grow their brand. Being in a large market also gives management more wiggle room on taking risks, because the financial risk is much smaller when you can fall backwards into money.

    If the Pacers had the cash flow that the Knicks/Lakers do, then I'd agree that market size doesn't matter much. But the Pacers take a flier on a team, and get burnt, and it can cost the city the Pacers. The Knicks can afford to flush money down the toilet, and their financial situation stays pretty solid.

    Talent evaluation is only a small piece of the pie when it comes to being able to run a quality NBA franchise.

    It's all interconnected.

  17. #139
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    33
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    By landing a consensus top pick is how you rebuild the right way. If you don't get one, you're behind the 8-ball.
    Some "small market teams" have had an opportunity to try to get a top pick but they rather "stay afloat" and pick in the middle of the pack ala Pacers, having a good FO also helps to be successful when you are picking in the top of the pack so you don't pull a Memphis or Minny.

  18. #140
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    33
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Heh, I think the part where you and I differ is I don't think things are going too poorly with how we're being run. Granted this summer was not up to last year's, but I still could see some logic behind it. I'm kind of waiting to the trade deadline of this season to reserve judgement.
    I don't think things are run poorly either, I just think that the Pacers FO are satisfied to be OK and as competitive person I hate that, they also sold us into the idea of a "better future" five years ago(the famous 3 years plan) and now after five years and another wasted summer where they also wasted their cap space, I just don't see the light of the tunnel of a championship that we were promised few years ago all I see is a second round contending team nothing else.

  19. #141
    Professional Beachcomber mildlysane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Port Charlotte, Florida
    Age
    43
    Posts
    1,269
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't think you can lump Orlando and Tampa in the same market in any kind of way. Almost no one is driving from one city to the other to watch a game. I've lived in Orlando.

    There may be other markets where this applies, but not Orlando/Tampa.
    I agree, however the airwaves /advertising make the trip (I assume). I live halfway between Ft Myers and Tampa and get both sets of affiliates. Kind of annoying really, because Comcast makes it seem like you get a lot of channels, but in reality, you get a lot of duplicates. I see your point, though.
    Last edited by mildlysane; 08-17-2012 at 05:23 PM.

  20. #142
    It is ka Thankee sai Major Cold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Location
    Garrett, IN
    Posts
    9,115
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Folks San Antonio is the exception to the rule that big market runs the NBA. They are an anomaly that had the best PF to ever play. Plus they scouted overseas in a way that no other team had thought of. The revolutionized the foreign market scouting.

  21. #143
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,866

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    The other thing you have to consider when doing the whole "What is a small market" argument is this:

    The Green Bay Packers (my hometown team) are most certainly in a small market. But I would not really classify them as a "small market" team because of the simple fact that our fan base is one of the most wide spread of any professional sporting team. You can go anywhere in the country (nearly) and encounter good numbers of Packers fans. I see TONS of Packers gear and fan stuff out here in Southern California for example. So while their LOCAL market may be small, their 'effective market' (invented term just now) is HUGE.

    Just throwing that out there.
    Read my Pacers.com Guest Blog:
    "Area 55 Conquers Staples Center"

  22. The Following 4 Users Say Thank You to TMJ31 For This Useful Post:


  23. #144
    Member
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    29
    Posts
    5,941

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    The other thing you have to consider when doing the whole "What is a small market" argument is this:

    The Green Bay Packers (my hometown team) are most certainly in a small market. But I would not really classify them as a "small market" team because of the simple fact that our fan base is one of the most wide spread of any professional sporting team. You can go anywhere in the country (nearly) and encounter good numbers of Packers fans. I see TONS of Packers gear and fan stuff out here in Southern California for example. So while their LOCAL market may be small, their 'effective market' (invented term just now) is HUGE.

    Just throwing that out there.

    Good point.

    Off topic, but how do fans travel for the Packers? I know at one time it was hard to get season tickets unless it was in the family, is that the same for individual? Or has stubhub et al changed that

    Back on topic, I wonder what the Pacers fan base is nationwide? We have a lot of fans here that are from other nations, but I have seen my share of Pacers jerseys in Washington DC and VA (not so much Florida when I lived there).

    Though to be 100% fair some also choose to sport hats/jerseys/etc for fashion reasons.

  24. #145
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,866

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vapacersfan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Good point.

    Off topic, but how do fans travel for the Packers? I know at one time it was hard to get season tickets unless it was in the family, is that the same for individual? Or has stubhub et al changed that

    Back on topic, I wonder what the Pacers fan base is nationwide? We have a lot of fans here that are from other nations, but I have seen my share of Pacers jerseys in Washington DC and VA (not so much Florida when I lived there).

    Though to be 100% fair some also choose to sport hats/jerseys/etc for fashion reasons.
    Season tickets have a massive waiting list, your spot on which you can actually bequeath to your children in your will (it's that crazy)
    http://www.packers.com/tickets/season-tickets.html

    But yes, Packers fans travel very well indeed.
    Last edited by TMJ31; 08-17-2012 at 06:58 PM.
    Read my Pacers.com Guest Blog:
    "Area 55 Conquers Staples Center"

  25. #146
    Member hoosierguy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Location
    Indiana
    Posts
    4,464

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Market size is irrelevant in the NFL. The hard salary cap, equal revenue sharing, and non-existence of a draft lottery keeps the playing field just about equal for every team.

  26. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to hoosierguy For This Useful Post:


  27. #147
    Star Platinum Hypnotiq's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2011
    Posts
    1,973

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    ^^ Yup to compare the two is deadset laughable

  28. #148
    Honorary Area 55'er TMJ31's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Wisconsin
    Posts
    4,866

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Hypnotiq View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    ^^ Yup to compare the two is deadset laughable
    I wasn't comparing the two in the sense of fair play or chances of being successful.

    Merely trying to put a new spin on the whole "what defines a small market" debate.

    I agree, NBA/NFL = Apples/Oranges.
    Read my Pacers.com Guest Blog:
    "Area 55 Conquers Staples Center"

  29. #149
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,397

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I don't think you can lump Orlando and Tampa in the same market in any kind of way. Almost no one is driving from one city to the other to watch a game. I've lived in Orlando.

    There may be other markets where this applies, but not Orlando/Tampa.
    I believe this. I have made that drive and I recall it being awful. Lots of stop and go and heavy traffic for miles.

  30. #150
    Gotta Play Big BlueNGold's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Posts
    15,397

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Folks San Antonio is the exception to the rule that big market runs the NBA. They are an anomaly that had the best PF to ever play. Plus they scouted overseas in a way that no other team had thought of. The revolutionized the foreign market scouting.
    Good point, but nobody seems to focus on the fact they had the #1 picks in both 1987 and 1997...both years where HOF franchise centers were obvious #1 picks. Not bad luck.

    Also, the Spurs didn't really become a dynasty until Duncan came along. They had never been to the NBA finals until Robinson and Duncan took them in 1999. I recall them talking about Robinson the way they talked about Barkley. Great player but no rings.

    So, sure, San Antonio is a well run franchise, Popovich is a great coach and they were early adopters to overseas talent. But some of this was good fortune. Had Duncan, for example, been Kwame Brown or Jonathan Bender things would be very different these days in San Antonio.

  31. The Following 5 Users Say Thank You to BlueNGold For This Useful Post:


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-06-2011, 07:31 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-17-2011, 09:20 PM
  3. Kobe Bryant and Pau Gasol think FC Barcelona could compete [ESPN]
    By RoboHicks in forum NBA Headlines (RSS Feeds)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-07-2010, 09:40 PM
  4. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-04-2010, 06:20 PM
  5. Pacers 100-1 to win next years NBA championship.
    By Will Galen in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 07-03-2009, 09:08 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •