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Thread: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    What does it take to get just an interview? If rebuilding is so easy, and it would result in such a better ran franchise, then we need to do all we can to get Vnlza to Simons so we can start rooting for a winner.

    I have a hard time believing it's such a simple plan to execute, when teams routinely stay horrible after getting lottery pick after lottery pick. If it really is this easy, then it's like they try to be so bad at their jobs.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    If it really is this easy, then it's like they try to be so bad at their jobs.
    Well, the current theory seems to be that you can make more money being consistently bad so it is better to get your fans to "buy in" to the concept.
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    What does it take to get just an interview? If rebuilding is so easy, and it would result in such a better ran franchise, then we need to do all we can to get Vnlza to Simons so we can start rooting for a winner.

    I have a hard time believing it's such a simple plan to execute, when teams routinely stay horrible after getting lottery pick after lottery pick. If it really is this easy, then it's like they try to be so bad at their jobs.
    And nobody is saying that is easy and yes a lot of GM's are bad at their jobs.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Well, the current theory seems to be that you can make more money being consistently bad so it is better to get your fans to "buy in" to the concept.
    Consistently bad? no, consistently mediocre? yes, win 40/45 games a year and get to the second round every year while getting a percentage of the money teams like NY, Lakers, etc are expending = good business.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Consistent bad? no, consistent mediocre? yes, win 40/45 games a year and get to the second round every year while getting a percentage of the money teams like NY, Lakers, etc are expending = good business.
    So let me ask you in all seriousness - given that not everyone spending NY/Lakers money wins a championship or gets to the finals, how many years of spending that kind of crazy money without winning a championship does it take before someone can believe that an owner/franchise really wants to win? When does it then become that the owner/franchise is incompetent because they obviously spent the money on the wrong people (because spending that kind of money otherwise would bring a championship)?

    Remember, it has not been that long ago that the Pacers had a contending (ECF and Finals appearances) team with a salary well over the cap (before the LT), and the Simons spent all kinds of money - and yet the argument was STILL that they weren't doing enough to win a championship.

    It seems to become the "there is no try" argument again - the only way to prove you are trying to win a championship is to win one. No one who made it to a high level (and by that I mean conference finals or higher) but got beat actually tried to win, since they didn't win.
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    And nobody is saying that is easy and yes a lot of GM's are bad at their jobs.
    Easy is a relative term. You're arguing that it's easier to rebuild by tanking than it is by "staying mediocore."

    I just find it funny that you keep hanging your verberal hat on San Antonio, while ignoring the other 90% of cases where it doesn't work out that way. Teams try to tank to rebuild all the time, or they just happen to be in the lottery all the time so if whether or not it's on purpose is moot, and they still can't manage to follow your blueprint to success.

    If tanking is an easier path to rebuilding, then more teams would do it, and more teams would jump from the bottom to the top. And yet they don't. Theories sound good on paper, but are much harder to execute once you actually try to put them into practice.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Consistently bad? no, consistently mediocre? yes, win 40/45 games a year and get to the second round every year while getting a percentage of the money teams like NY, Lakers, etc are expending = good business.
    And another thing - we've gone from defining constantly being in the second round as "not contending" to defining it as "mediocre", pretty much meaning that of 30 teams only 4 of them aren't mediocre. The former I argument I can at least accept as valid even if I don't agree with it necessarily. The latter is rather ludicrous.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    So let me ask you in all seriousness - given that not everyone spending NY/Lakers money wins a championship or gets to the finals, how many years of spending that kind of crazy money without winning a championship does it take before someone can believe that an owner/franchise really wants to win? When does it then become that the owner/franchise is incompetent because they obviously spent the money on the wrong people (because spending that kind of money otherwise would bring a championship)?

    Remember, it has not been that long ago that the Pacers had a contending (ECF and Finals appearances) team with a salary well over the cap (before the LT), and the Simons spent all kinds of money - and yet the argument was STILL that they weren't doing enough to win a championship.

    It seems to become the "there is no try" argument again - the only way to prove you are trying to win a championship is to win one. No one who made it to a high level (and by that I mean conference finals or higher) but got beat actually tried to win, since they didn't win.
    I think the Simons were willing to go over the cap in the previous CBA, I don't think they are willing to do the same in the new CBA because of the penalties plus the money the will lose if they go over the tax line, so not only they have to pay the penalties but they also lose the "free money" they were going to get from the tax paying teams.

    By the way I don't think you have to overspend the same way teams like NY or LA do, my point is that at some point if you want to win a championship you have to get over the tax line, how many teams over the past 15 years that won a championship were under the tax line? my guess is 0.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    Easy is a relative term. You're arguing that it's easier to rebuild by tanking than it is by "staying mediocore."

    I just find it funny that you keep hanging your verberal hat on San Antonio, while ignoring the other 90% of cases where it doesn't work out that way. Teams try to tank to rebuild all the time, or they just happen to be in the lottery all the time so if whether or not it's on purpose is moot, and they still can't manage to follow your blueprint to success.

    If tanking is an easier path to rebuilding, then more teams would do it, and more teams would jump from the bottom to the top. And yet they don't. Theories sound good on paper, but are much harder to execute once you actually try to put them into practice.
    It's easier if you have a competent front office, just because other teams with crappy front offices have failed doesn't mean that your team is also going to fail, I guess you guys don't trust the Pacers front office the same way I do even though I'm the one criticizing them for their failures.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    It's easier if you have a competent front office, just because other teams with crappy front offices have failed doesn't mean that your team is also going to fail, I guess you guys don't trust the Pacers front office the same way I do even though I'm the one criticizing them for their failures.
    You sure can come up with some doozies.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    And another thing - we've gone from defining constantly being in the second round as "not contending" to defining it as "mediocre", pretty much meaning that of 30 teams only 4 of them aren't mediocre. The former I argument I can at least accept as valid even if I don't agree with it necessarily. The latter is rather ludicrous.
    A team that is constantly staying in the same place year after year even if they get to the second round is "mediocre" in my book, the Hawks are "mediocre", Milwaukee trying to get to 8th place every year is "mediocre", maybe a difference qualification of "mediocre" but they are still competing to be in purgatory.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I think the Simons were willing to go over the cap in the previous CBA, I don't think they are willing to do the same in the new CBA because of the penalties plus the money the will lose if they go over the tax line, so not only they have to pay the penalties but they also lose the "free money" they were going to get from the tax paying teams.
    My understanding of the current CBA is that you actually lose LESS by going over the LT level than you did in the previous CBA - am I not remembering correctly that the LT level is tiered and that as long as you are below a certain tier in the tax you still receive money from teams paying more tax than you - so it isn't a complete "all or nothing" at the LT line like it used to be.

    I also don't quite understand the penalties you seem to be talking about for being over the CAP. Do you mean the drastic escalation if you are over the TAX, or is there some cap penalty I can't remember besides just trade issues and restrictions to using exceptions?
    BillS

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    A team that is constantly staying in the same place year after year even if they get to the second round is "mediocre" in my book, the Hawks are "mediocre", Milwaukee trying to get to 8th place every year is "mediocre", maybe a difference qualification of "mediocre" but they are still competing to be in purgatory.
    OK. Not any definition of "mediocre" I've ever heard of, as it tends to carry connotations of being below average not just failing to improve from an already good position. I might define the Bucks in your scenario as "mediocre", likely not the Hawks - I'd define them as "having reached their limit" or something similar rather than applying a term that means they are actually doing poorly as well.
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    My understanding of the current CBA is that you actually lose LESS by going over the LT level than you did in the previous CBA - am I not remembering correctly that the LT level is tiered and that as long as you are below a certain tier in the tax you still receive money from teams paying more tax than you - so it isn't a complete "all or nothing" at the LT line like it used to be.

    I also don't quite understand the penalties you seem to be talking about for being over the CAP. Do you mean the drastic escalation if you are over the TAX, or is there some cap penalty I can't remember besides just trade issues and restrictions to using exceptions?
    The 1.50 per every dollar teams pay now instead of the 1 for every dollar penalty. (not sure if it's 1.50 or 1.25)

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes they tanked and yes they are a class organization, just because they tanked doesn't put an asterisk next to their championships, that's the way the NBA system is, if you tank you have a possibility to get the highest pick and they were smart enough to tank.

    As an example the Colts tanked for Luck last year, does that make them less of an organization compared to other teams? nope, as soon as they start winning SB's nobody would even care to talk about the tanking year.
    How does that compare them to the Pacers who refuse to tank even though we were sitting at a possible 4th. worse record just a few years ago and ending with something like 10th.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Tanking is for losers...we play to win!

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    This is off the topic, but it irks me a little when I see the recognition given to the Spurs as a class organization. Yes, they are extremely well ran but it's like everyone forgets the tank job they did to land Duncan. Of course luck played a factor but Robinson could have returned and Elliot may have been ready as well late in the season. The foundation of everything they've built has been on a tank job. I won't lie, I'd be o.k. if we had 4 championships built on a tank job but their would be a small asterisks beside them.
    David Robinson's injury (missed 76 games, last game was December 23) wasn't tanking.

    They fired Bo Hill right before Robinson's season debut in mid-December, and went 3-3 when David was healthy enough to play.

    Sean Elliott's injury (missed 43 games, last game was Feb. 5) wasn't tanking.

    Charles Smith's injury (missed 63 games between November 5 and March 15) wasn't tanking.

    Charles Smith even returned to the lineup when the team was 16-47 to play the remainder of the season. Bringing your starting PF back when you're 31 games under 0.500 isn't tanking.

    So that covers their starting front court, of 246 possible games, they played 64.

    Then you add in their sixth-man, Chuck Person, who missed all 82 games after back surgery. (And spent most of the season at his home in Indianapolis and paid for Roger Brown's funeral that season.)

    So their four main front court players missed 264 of 328 games due to injury that season. Its no wonder they were 20-62 that season right after Bo Hill led them to 62 wins (and the WCFs) and 59 wins in the two preceding years.

    Calling this a tank job is one of the most outlandish attempts at revisionist history I've ever seen on PD. And we're pretty good at revisionist history around here.

    ,

    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Thank you ChicagoJ. I've debated this point several times here and I've just given up on it. I've begun to wonder how many people saying it even remember it, and how many are just repeating what they heard someone else say.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    It call comes down to odds. If you want a championship, do the Indiana Pacers have a better chance of having a soft landing rebuild and snag Paul George at #9....or a hard landing and snag Kyrie Irving, John Wall or Blake Griffin?

    A soft landing is a relatively easy thing to do for a decent rebuild where you have a team good enough to make he playoffs and possibly contend for the ECF.

    But the question remains...do you want a championship? The point isn't that tanking leads to a championship necessarily. The point is...what are the odds and do you really want it bad enough?

    Were the Reggie Miller years completely satisfying?...losing to the Lakers in the finals? Keep in mind, that we are attempting to do pretty much the same thing....but in this case we didn't even have a #2 pick with Smits. Our current studs were both picked at #17.

    I just find our recipe extremely unlikely to ever lead to an NBA championship...

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    To correct one minor point, when we are speaking of the past, it is correct to refer to the owners as the "Simons". However, in the present, all owner decisions are being made by the "Simon"... and that would be Herb.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    David Robinson's injury (missed 76 games, last game was December 23) wasn't tanking.

    They fired Bo Hill right before Robinson's season debut in mid-December, and went 3-3 when David was healthy enough to play.

    Sean Elliott's injury (missed 43 games, last game was Feb. 5) wasn't tanking.

    Charles Smith's injury (missed 63 games between November 5 and March 15) wasn't tanking.

    Charles Smith even returned to the lineup when the team was 16-47 to play the remainder of the season. Bringing your starting PF back when you're 31 games under 0.500 isn't tanking.

    So that covers their starting front court, of 246 possible games, they played 64.

    Then you add in their sixth-man, Chuck Person, who missed all 82 games after back surgery. (And spent most of the season at his home in Indianapolis and paid for Roger Brown's funeral that season.)

    So their four main front court players missed 264 of 328 games due to injury that season. Its no wonder they were 20-62 that season right after Bo Hill led them to 62 wins (and the WCFs) and 59 wins in the two preceding years.

    Calling this a tank job is one of the most outlandish attempts at revisionist history I've ever seen on PD. And we're pretty good at revisionist history around here.

    ,

    I have no way of proving it but it was common knowledge that Robinson could have returned that season. If they let him then they win more games and not playing your best players if they can play is tanking. I remember Barkley accusing them of it that season. It's listed as one of the biggest tanking jobs in the nba on many articles.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    When Bo Hill and Rifleman arrived in San Antonio, I began tuning into their games on the League Pass quite regularly. I won't say that I cheer for the Spurs, but they are the team I've watched the second-most amount of times over the past 18 years of subscribing to the League Pass. Getting Duncan and then Manu helped me stay tuned in after Rifleman and Bo Hill moved on...

    There was discussion in real-time that the Celtics were trying for the #1 pick, and wouldn't it be justice if Tim Duncan didn't go to Boston but landed in San Antonio. Pop was frustrated that injuries to D-Rob, Elliot, Rifleman and Smith took them out of championship contention when they had a top-five team at the time. For crying out loud, they brought Dominique Wilkins out of the old folks home and he was their leading scorer. That's not tanking. You don't bring in Dominique to tank. You let Carl Herrera and Cory Alexander have all the minutes if you're tanking. They played, but out of necessity not out of "Tank" strategy.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    I have no way of proving it but it was common knowledge that Robinson could have returned that season. If they let him then they win more games and not playing your best players if they can play is tanking. I remember Barkley accusing them of it that season. It's listed as one of the biggest tanking jobs in the nba on many articles.
    They were already eliminated from playoff contention when David Robinson might have been able to return from his broken foot. It was "iffy" If they were in the playoff picture they could have rushed him back sooner and had him on the court at less than 100%. What happened to Bill Walton's foot when he tried to come back too soon? There is a history of big men never really recovering from broken feet. Sam Bowie? Can't blame the Spurs for not wanting to share this cursed history with the Blazers.

    What sane GM allows an MVP candidate on the court at less than 100% while recovering from a broken foot, and with risk to re-injury or setback, when his team is mathematically eliminated from the playoffs? Only Jim O'Brien would be that shortsighted.

    http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...ed-3-15-start/
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicagoJ View Post
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    They were already eliminated from playoff contention when David Robinson might have been able to return from his broken foot. It was "iffy" If they were in the playoff picture they could have rushed him back sooner and had him on the court at less than 100%. What happened to Bill Walton's foot when he tried to come back too soon? There is a history of big men never really recovering from broken feet. Sam Bowie? Can't blame the Spurs for not wanting to share this cursed history with the Blazers.

    What sane GM allows an MVP candidate on the court at less than 100% while recovering from a broken foot, and with risk to re-injury or setback, when his team is mathematically eliminated from the playoffs? Only Jim O'Brien would be that shortsighted.

    http://blog.mysanantonio.com/spursna...ed-3-15-start/
    I just looked at that seasons' standings again. I'd forgotten how bad Boston was trying to lose, finishing at 15-67. As much as I wish the Celtics, Tom Heinsohn, the Auerbach family, and all Celtics fans many, many, many years of 15-67, I hope its because they're trying to win and can't, not just that they have ML Carr coaching the team so they'll lose. The Grizzlies were 14-68, and that might have been about right for them. They didn't have any injury issues, they didn't tank. They just SUCKED. So the Spurs weren't even at the bottom of the standings in their so-called tank season.
    Why do the things that we treasure most, slip away in time
    Till to the music we grow deaf, to God's beauty blind
    Why do the things that connect us slowly pull us apart?
    Till we fall away in our own darkness, a stranger to our own hearts
    And life itself, rushing over me
    Life itself, the wind in black elms,
    Life itself in your heart and in your eyes, I can't make it without you


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Well I tried to start a thread, and I guess it was too similar to what this thread was about, and I apologize to mattie for that. Did not mean to call you out or steal your thunder.

    Anyways, I like our chances of winning in the next five years because of the four biggest contenders in the East (Miami, Boston, Chicago, Indy) we are by far the youngest. And I guess I'll just leave it at that.

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