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Thread: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

  1. #151

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    What teams qualify as small market? I usually see Minnesota listed as a small market team, but I've been there and that's a big area. Oakland as well. What criteria are we using?

    I googled around but couldn't find anything too definitive. I'd be interested in seeing where exactly we split the lines between big/medium/small markets.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Good point, but nobody seems to focus on the fact they had the #1 picks in both 1987 and 1997...both years where HOF franchise centers were obvious #1 picks. Not bad luck.

    Also, the Spurs didn't really become a dynasty until Duncan came along. They had never been to the NBA finals until Robinson and Duncan took them in 1999. I recall them talking about Robinson the way they talked about Barkley. Great player but no rings.

    So, sure, San Antonio is a well run franchise, Popovich is a great coach and they were early adopters to overseas talent. But some of this was good fortune. Had Duncan, for example, been Kwame Brown or Jonathan Bender things would be very different these days in San Antonio.
    SA got Duncan because they decided to tank to get him, they didn't say "hey less stay in the middle for a long time to see what happens" they were also pretty good at picking good players later in the draft.

  3. #153

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    What teams qualify as small market? I usually see Minnesota listed as a small market team, but I've been there and that's a big area. Oakland as well. What criteria are we using?

    I googled around but couldn't find anything too definitive. I'd be interested in seeing where exactly we split the lines between big/medium/small markets.
    It's more about perception than anything really. By any numerical measure we're unquestionably a small market, 35th biggest metro area nationally and 24th in the NBA. But it's more than that, Phoenix, Detroit, Minnesota (and Seattle) are all top 20 national markets but I don't think you'll ever see anyone call any of them anything but small markets. Maybe not Detroit, but obviously Detroit's got other problems going on right now unfortunately that hold them back.

    It's about where it's "cool" to live for really rich athletes in their 20s where the majority have grown up in major urban centers. I mean, let's be real here, you can have your pick of places to live in that scenario, why WOULDN'T you pick somewhere like Miami or LA or NYC over Indianapolis or Sacramento or Denver assuming the money's the same regardless of the choice? You can say West picked us over Boston, but West is a different type of cat. 30+, married, kids, and not interested in the limelight, there're always exceptions to the rules. There are obviously a good number of pro athletes that prefer the lessened pressure that comes with playing in a small market, but not a lot. Even Reggie wasn't too pumped about coming here until we made him a God.

    Anyway, as for the premise of the thread, I pretty much agree. This is a good team, but it's not winning a title w/o some large changes. No that's not good enough. Yes I sometimes question why I still care so much while that's the case. Never have come up with an answer. Because I wouldn't know what to do in the winter w/o the Pacers I suppose. I realize that's stupid, but it is what it is. I'm not going to just stop watching the Pacers, it's part of me, it really is.
    Last edited by Heisenberg; 08-18-2012 at 01:26 AM.

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  5. #154

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    It's more about perception than anything really.
    If that's true and it is about perception, then isn't that a good thing? Perception seems like the one factor, unlike market size and media access, that can be changed and improved. I don't remember Miami being all that desirable of an NBA location until the mid 2000s. I'm sure players liked the beach and all but I don't remember players dying to play there.

  6. #155

    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    If that's true and it is about perception, then isn't that a good thing? Perception seems like the one factor, unlike market size and media access, that can be changed and improved. I don't remember Miami being all that desirable of an NBA location until the mid 2000s. I'm sure players liked the beach and all but I don't remember players dying to play there.
    I suppose it's easier to make a market "sexy" than it is to quintuple the population of the greater Indy area, sure. But really not by much. We're not among the greatest NBA franchises ever, but it's not like we're a bunch of bums either, I'd have to look up number and dictate some guidelines but results wise we're in the top ten or so of NBA history. I mean as far as an NBA player'd be concerned what more could the franchise do? We've got a long history of paying our own (the main reason of that now being in charge again), standing by idiots until literally forced not to, I honestly cannot think of a player that's left Indy that didn't have positive things to say about the way the franchise handled him. That could easily be wrong but off the top of my head I really can't think of one.

    But you play in Indy you're behind the eight ball. Reverse the Starks/Reggie roles, Reggie plays in NYC he's a superstar to end all superstars with all the drama and big plays he made. And Starks is just some dude that no one remembers at all. Same as Roy and Chandler. Both bring entirely different skillsets but they're absolutely on the same tier of player. Roy makes an ASG and it's surprising and "undeserved." Flip the two and Roy's getting multiple ESPN headlines a week and Chandler keeps his rep of being a journeyman.

    Being in a small market is NOT an excuse to settle, from a fan perspective anyway. But it's just dumb for people to try and act like it doesn't make things significantly higher.

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  8. #156
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    SA got Duncan because they decided to tank to get him, they didn't say "hey less stay in the middle for a long time to see what happens" they were also pretty good at picking good players later in the draft.
    Yes. They are also a lesson in tanking to get a high pick whether or not that was intentional. Tankers pick superstars and superstars win championships. This doesn't mean tankers win championships necessarily, but they do win then more often than teams like the Pacers who try to build a team the "right way".

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    SA got Duncan because they decided to tank to get him, they didn't say "hey less stay in the middle for a long time to see what happens" they were also pretty good at picking good players later in the draft.
    You're right, we need to do like San Antonio and conspire with our best player to break his own leg for the season.
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    SA got Duncan because they decided to tank to get him, they didn't say "hey less stay in the middle for a long time to see what happens" they were also pretty good at picking good players later in the draft.
    They kept Robinson out and played the end of their bench for the last 15-20 games in the most obvious tank job in recent nba history. Then Pop fired Hill to take over and become the hero. He is a good coach but if you're going to give the orders to shut it down you should Hill should have been given a chance to win.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    You're right, we need to do like San Antonio and conspire with our best player to break his own leg for the season.
    I remember the year the Pacers had a chance to shut Danny and Dunleavy out and instead they decided to play them until the last game and ended up winning a bunch of meaningless games.

    I also remember the great game against the Bucks at the end of the season moving the Pacers up in the draft.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I remember the year the Pacers had a chance to shut Danny and Dunleavy out and instead they decided to play them until the last game and ended up winning a bunch of meaningless games.

    I also remember the great game against the Bucks at the end of the season moving the Pacers up in the draft.
    Noted. I can see some better choices that would have moved us from middle of the draft to maybe 7 or 8. But apart from Danny breaking his leg as well, it would be hard to replicate SA's tank job.
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Noted. I can see some better choices that would have moved us from middle of the draft to maybe 7 or 8. But apart from Danny breaking his leg as well, it would be hard to replicate SA's tank job.
    And on top of that, you have to hope you win the draft lottery.

    And on top of that, you have to hope it's the next Tim Duncan waiting for you.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I remember the year the Pacers had a chance to shut Danny and Dunleavy out and instead they decided to play them until the last game and ended up winning a bunch of meaningless games.

    I also remember the great game against the Bucks at the end of the season moving the Pacers up in the draft.
    I definitely see the value in tanking... I just don't feel right about it...
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yes. They are also a lesson in tanking to get a high pick whether or not that was intentional. Tankers pick superstars and superstars win championships. This doesn't mean tankers win championships necessarily, but they do win then more often than teams like the Pacers who try to build a team the "right way".
    You conveniently forget the teams that are horrible for multiple years without winning the lottery. Typically there are only 1 maybe 2 game changers in a draft and you can go years being the worst team in the league without getting one. Building the right way gave us the 5th best record in the league and an improving team. I prefer that to assembling a crappy team and praying for divine intervention. Then again a lot of people do prefer to have crap to complain about around here. There are 32 teams, fans should appreciate more than just the one with the trophy.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    And if San Antonio doesn't win the lottery and have Duncan fall into their laps, and say have to pick #2? They get Keith Van Horn and how many titles?

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    Yes. They are also a lesson in tanking to get a high pick whether or not that was intentional. Tankers pick superstars and superstars win championships. This doesn't mean tankers win championships necessarily, but they do win then more often than teams like the Pacers who try to build a team the "right way".
    I disagree with tanking being a solution to our championship woes. If this is such a sure-fire way, why aren't teams like Washington, Sacramento, Toronto, and other perennial lottery teams hardly ever....ever....ever in contention for a championship? Cleveland had James d@mn-near a decade with no rings to show for it.

    And ask Barkley, Karl Malone, Stockton, Reggie, Ewing, Webber, and many others if being a superstar is what all it takes for winning a championship. It takes alot of luck. It takes alot of scouting. It takes alot of collective compromise. Everything has to come together almost perfectly. If you tank, get the #1 pick, and he ends up being a Kwame or Olowakandi, what are you gonna do? Tank again? I just disagree with you and vnzla81 that tanking is a be-all end-all solution. I'd rather see a team with fight and lose, than a team or front office tank in HOPES that a lottery pick will pan out and win us a ring. To me that's a coward's mentality.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    If you don't have a competent FO that can not only draft talent, but that can draft players that fit well together, a coaching staff that can utilize the talent, then tanking is useless. Thats why the annual bottom feeders stay where they are, and the Spurs and such remain where they are.

    I will say that a team that is run as well as the Spurs for such a long period of time is an anomaly, especially in the NBA. Nomally EVERY team has a few down years (even the Lakers were bad for 2 yeas or so) but the Spurs are an exception to the rule.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

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    And on top of that, you have to hope you win the draft lottery.
    You don't need to win the draft lottery that's the missing point of people here, for example that year the Pacers went into the famous late season run they were placed 7th/8th in the draft and guess who was there at that position?(EJ) you don't think the Pacers are in a better position with EJ instead of Tyler? what has that last season run done to the Pacers for the present? my guess is nothing.

    And on top of that, you have to hope it's the next Tim Duncan waiting for you.
    It doesn't have to be Duncan to be a successful pick.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by mb221 View Post
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    And if San Antonio doesn't win the lottery and have Duncan fall into their laps, and say have to pick #2? They get Keith Van Horn and how many titles?
    They are still smart enough to build a competent team, they are just that good.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    They are still smart enough to build a competent team, they are just that good.
    But in truth there is just no way to know that. Everybody acts like the Spurs have been a super team for all of their tenure in the NBA and nothing could be further from the truth. They have been a super team in the NBA since they drafted what is now widely considered the greatest power forward to ever play. Think about that for a min, they have the greatest player to ever play his position and on top of that in all honesty he is one of the greatest big men to ever play.

    It sure makes it a lot easier to put pieces around that than say journeymen big men.

    No, to me the Spurs are like the Thunder are now, they are not the examples that small market teams can compete on a fair scale. They are the examples that if you strike gold twice in the draft you can compete.

    BTW, I'm not disagreeing that high lottery picks are the way to go but I'm just saying I think the Spurs get a little to much credit as an org. for being a great team without enough of a caveat being said about them landing two top 50 players of all time with the # 1 overall pick.


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    But in truth there is just no way to know that. Everybody acts like the Spurs have been a super team for all of their tenure in the NBA and nothing could be further from the truth. They have been a super team in the NBA since they drafted what is now widely considered the greatest power forward to ever play. Think about that for a min, they have the greatest player to ever play his position and on top of that in all honesty he is one of the greatest big men to ever play.

    It sure makes it a lot easier to put pieces around that than say journeymen big men.

    No, to me the Spurs are like the Thunder are now, they are not the examples that small market teams can compete on a fair scale. They are the examples that if you strike gold twice in the draft you can compete.

    BTW, I'm not disagreeing that high lottery picks are the way to go but I'm just saying I think the Spurs get a little to much credit as an org. for being a great team without enough of a caveat being said about them landing two top 50 players of all time with the # 1 overall pick.
    Many teams have drafted all time players and haven't been able to do what the Spurs have been able to do, recent examples Cleveland and Orlando, old examples, Minny and Phoenix, acting like the Spurs just got "lucky" and because of that they became the Spurs is not accurate they were also pretty good at drafting or trading for players that complements that great player they have on their team.

    The part that grinds my gears with people and Pacers fans in general is that as always they use excuses to protect the Pacers front office, they couldn't get Nash, "that is because we are an small market team", we couldn't make trades, "that's because they were not trades available and our FO just doesn't make trades to make trades because they are just too smart", regarding tanking people love to make the excuse that "we don't tank because if we don't get the number one pick we are doomed" or the "if we tank we better get ready to see the Pacers in Vegas or Seattle".

    At the end of the day the Pacers didn't tank and they are still missing pieces to ever compete for a Championship, again what good has those last season runs done to the Pacers? and please don't tell me that winning those last games has created some kind of "winning attitude" that has carry on to the present because it hasn't.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I don't think things are run poorly either, I just think that the Pacers FO are satisfied to be OK and as competitive person I hate that, they also sold us into the idea of a "better future" five years ago(the famous 3 years plan) and now after five years and another wasted summer where they also wasted their cap space, I just don't see the light of the tunnel of a championship that we were promised few years ago all I see is a second round contending team nothing else.

    I disagreed with much of your front office criticisms in recent years, but I agree 100% that this was a giant snoozer of an off-season for the Pacers. We had the opportunity to at least *attempt* to make a splash, but the only improvements we made were changing up the bench a bit. Maybe we succeed in bringing a big name here, maybe we don't. But it would have been nice to have *tried*. This was the year to do it as we won't have that opportunity with cap space in the near future.

    It cannot be denied that several good teams in the East made better improvements to their teams than the Pacers. The world champs got Ray Allen and Rashard Lewis who you know will come in handy with some buckets in the playoffs. The Knicks lost Lin, but Felton, Kidd, and Camby aren't exactly scraps. That team is much more talented than the Pacers. Their only question is chemistry. Boston also made some very nice improvements to their team and if they are healthy, they will be an even better team than the one that almost went to the Finals. The Nets got better with the Johnson deal and if Lopez is healthy all year then they will be tough. The Sixers added freaking Bynum in a steal of a trade. God only knows how deadly he'll be as the focal point of an offense.

    Teams all over the East made far better improvements to their teams than the Pacers did. We will have a tough time winning a playoff series.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    It's about where it's "cool" to live for really rich athletes in their 20s where the majority have grown up in major urban centers. I mean, let's be real here, you can have your pick of places to live in that scenario, why WOULDN'T you pick somewhere like Miami or LA or NYC over Indianapolis or Sacramento or Denver assuming the money's the same regardless of the choice?

    You can probably take LA off that list in about 10 years when California's finances catch up with Greece. When players realize that along with the sunshine and hot women they have to pay 50% of their income in state taxes alone Indiana might start looking better.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Many teams have drafted all time players and haven't been able to do what the Spurs have been able to do, recent examples Cleveland and Orlando, old examples, Minny and Phoenix, acting like the Spurs just got "lucky" and because of that they became the Spurs is not accurate they were also pretty good at drafting or trading for players that complements that great player they have on their team.

    The part that grinds my gears with people and Pacers fans in general is that as always they use excuses to protect the Pacers front office, they couldn't get Nash, "that is because we are an small market team", we couldn't make trades, "that's because they were not trades available and our FO just doesn't make trades to make trades because they are just too smart", regarding tanking people love to make the excuse that "we don't tank because if we don't get the number one pick we are doomed" or the "if we tank we better get ready to see the Pacers in Vegas or Seattle".

    At the end of the day the Pacers didn't tank and they are still missing pieces to ever compete for a Championship, again what good has those last season runs done to the Pacers? and please don't tell me that winning those last games has created some kind of "winning attitude" that has carry on to the present because it hasn't.
    Maybe you didn't understand what I wrote.

    Tim Duncan is almost universally considered the greatest power forward to ever play the game. While Garnett is an all time great player he is not even considered the 2nd or 3rd best to play the 4 (Malone, Barkley). Same goes with Orlando, Dwight is the greates of this generation he probably is not even considered top 5 in Centers. LeBron has played both the 2 & 3 spot so depending on where you want to put him he may be the 3rd best shooting guards of all time (Jordan, Bryant) and I'm not sure where he would rank at the 3.

    Not to mention the Spurs did this after already having Robinson on the team.

    There is no need for a lot of back and forth here because for the most part I agree with you, but I'm just saying you can't discount the fact that they did have Duncan and prior to having Duncan they were never anything other than a very good team (Like the Pacers). As someone said draft Kieth Van Horn and I don't think the Spurs win one title let alone have the decade of excellent play that they have.


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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Lebron is probably the greatest small forward of all time right this second.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Lebron is probably the greatest small forward of all time right this second.
    Probably, I'm just going over in my head who are the great 3's of all time. Bird is one of them but probably for both ends of the floor you would have to say LeBron is already.


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