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Thread: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by xIndyFan View Post
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    to this. and lance, tyler, jeff and roy. time to grow up and play like men.
    green? at least on roy's name

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    This is an opinion board. He expressed his quite well. You should respect that, even if you strongly disagree with him.


    I feel the same way about your post. Get a life.
    You must have read really fast if you didn't see that the comment your ranting on was directed at the "We weren't bad enough" train of thought. It wasn't directed at the poster. The only negative I directed at the OP was in reference to the title of this thread. I made a somewhat abrasive comment because if someone doesn't want the team to be good we wouldn't even having the same conversation. If we don't share the same goal then there is no valuable dialog to be had. Your the one making things personal.

    p.s I changed a word in my post to make it more clear.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by adamscb View Post
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    green? at least on roy's name
    no, not really. roy's a max player. time to play like one. he needs to be the guy he wants to become.
    Last edited by xIndyFan; 08-16-2012 at 04:14 PM.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Do you really believe that though? I think we are all here to hopefully watch the Pacers win a title...or we're just a bunch of masochists
    We are a bunch of masochists.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    The arguing over big market versus small market seems odd when two of the three teams that mattie describes as Finals-set are not big market.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Rogco View Post
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    Interesting post, and in many ways I agree with you. The big problem is that there are a lot of teams in the league, and very few have the chance to get good enough to compete for the title. Defense may be the way to go, but I think the Pacers need to ensure they have flexibility to be able to morph parts of the team. Two things happened this off-season I didn't like because they seem to cement us to mediocrity: drafting Plumlee (who could end up being a good value pick and contributor, but the pick also doesn't have the chance to seriously improve the team. We picked a guy we think will be our third string center for the next FOUR years.) and signing Hill (have no problem signing him, don't even really mind overpaying him, but wish the contract was not five years. that's to much money tied up for too long.)
    Who had star upside after the Plumlee? Moultrie maybe? PJ3? I don't see any franchise altering players we should have taken instead of Plumlee. There may be better players than him, but none that catapult us out of mediocrity. I like the George Hill signing, and doubt it anchors the team in a bad place.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    How did we win more games than them and make it farther in the playoffs then? Maybe Vogel is just that good.

    That being said Gay vs. Granger is a lot closer than most people would say. Randolph vs. West this year was pretty much a wash. I'll take Roy over Marc Gasol....Maybe there's not a huge difference, but I would take our rosters over Memphis. To act like the rest of their starting 5 is clearly superior to ours other than shooting guard is just not true IMO
    Gay is better than Danny, Zbo is way better than West, he is also a better rebounder(great rebounder to be be out of shape), Gasol is better than Roy, he is bigger and stronger, doesn't get push around like Roy, his offensive arsenal is also pretty damn good, Roy is better at blocking shots, Conley is a better point guard than Hill, I'm not a big fan of him and I love Hill but I give the point guard edge to Conley because he knows how to control an offense and makes better passes, I guess the only position the Pacers are better than Memphis is shooting guard, they are also younger compared to the Pacers.

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    We've only been to the finals once and that was more than a decade ago...and we had the JO era with excellent talent....and it never made it. So, sure, I would be surprised if this team made it to the finals in the next 5 years. However, I seriously doubt that Kevin Pritchard is going to sit with this lineup for 5 years. That's less likely than the Pacers winning the championship.

    With that said, the east is weak and Miami is the only obstacle I think stops the Pacers cold at the moment. The Pacers are capable of beating most other teams in the conference and Boston will soon be a non-factor. Other teams will rise up though, so it's going to be tough. IMO, unless Paul George blows up in a good way, we aren't sniffing the finals for a long, long time. We need a great player who can get to Reggie Miller level under pressure...or better...and we need a really solid group to get there...because there will always be really good teams with superstars that will beat us. So, no, we are not there yet but I wouldn't rule out this group. At least one guy is going to have to really step up his game and I think the only guy even capable is Paul.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Thank God for this thread. If I had one complaint about PD it would be the rampant optimism.
    Last edited by PacersHomer; 08-17-2012 at 01:57 AM.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    How did we win more games than them and make it farther in the playoffs then? Maybe Vogel is just that good.

    That being said Gay vs. Granger is a lot closer than most people would say. Randolph vs. West this year was pretty much a wash. I'll take Roy over Marc Gasol....Maybe there's not a huge difference, but I would take our rosters over Memphis. To act like the rest of their starting 5 is clearly superior to ours other than shooting guard is just not true IMO
    Memphis dealt with a title ending injury to their best player. That's why they lost. Their title hopes went up in smoke before Randolph was injured. Before that, everyone in league considered them title contenders.

    You gotta a remember Memphis almost beat OKC and that was without Gay. Now with Gay back on the roster for 2011-12 season, they really had good reasons for believing they could. They also offered this: They could beat any team on the boards. And they did. LA's front line at the time was no match for Memphis despite having Gasol and Bynum.

    Gay was additional scorer to Zach and Marc. Memphis has much more low post scoring compared to us. Their back court I'd argue is a wash compared to ours. I mean as good LAL is, I would not be surprised if it the coming post season Z-Bo and Marc beat Howard and Pau like rented mules. It's conceivable. It really is.
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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by beast23 View Post
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    Mattie -

    You're absolutely killing me. You are sucking the air right out of my room. You see, I'm 60 years old and I have very few remaining on my bucket list. One of the most important for me, one that I have absolutely no control over, is seeing the Pacers win an NBA championship before my days are done.

    First off, you've given us an extremely well written position. I've understood your position for some time, but this serves very well to summarize your viewpoint. However, I don't agree with the lack of faith that you have in TPTB.

    The reason I say this is that I can understand and can certainly accept their rationale for making the moves that they have made this summer. I could easily join in with those that feel we may have overpaid for some of the deals that were made, but I really don't take exception with the personnel retained or acquired, or the reasoning behind it.

    I break a game into about 3 components. Game initiation/start, mid-game (perhaps further broken into Q2 and Q3/early Q4) and end-game situations.

    Quite frankly, once the move was change was made to start Hill (with Collison's injury) and to stick with him (even after Collison returned), I don't believe that anyone can reasonably argue the point that our starting lineup was not capable of playing with anyone in the league in game start (Q1) situations. I think the scoreboard has proven that point.

    Our early leads were often lost in late Q1/early Q2 when there were usually 3-4 bench players on the floor along with one starter. It was then not uncommon to see the starting unit either rebuild a lead or play back to even by halftime once they were re-inserted into the game in Q2. Starting the second half, our starters sometimes built leads or held their own.

    The only time that I can sometimes take exception to the performance of our starters would be in end-game situations (last 5 minutes) against the best of the best. The better teams have more talented star players that focus better in end-game situations. And, I cannot disagree when the top players of the best teams are playing more focused, they more often than not can get the better of even our starting players.

    So, I see the challenges for the Pacers being the strength of their bench and what they provide as a unit when the starters are out of the game in late Q1 and late Q3 situations, and the performance of even our best players in late game situations.

    I honestly believe that that TPTB believes that they have addressed both needs. Is it unreasonable to believe that the overall performance of this team would be improved by improving the talent and capabilities of the bench players that come onto the floor in late Q1/late Q3? Is it really unreasonable to believe that Hibbert and George will continue to improve or that West will perform better as he further heals, thereby perhaps providing even more cushion to help the subs maintain leads that our starters have built? I believe this is where the TPTB took a position as one solution and that I really can't argue against the position that they took. It is reasonable and was probably the easiest solution to execute.

    I believe that by retaining our starters, we have a unit that will perform no worse than they performed late last year. And, if George, Hibbert and West do improve, the starting unit building comfortable Q1 leads will be the norm. A better bench that can maintain those leads will eventually lead to opponents starters having to play more minutes in an attempt to overcome those leads.

    That takes us to late-game situations. Hopefully the extra minutes players by the opponents starters will help our starters in their attempt to perform better in the final minutes of games against the leagues best players. If not, then I believe that definite needs will reveal themselves to TPTB. You could be very correct in that the Pacers will need to replace West with a player that is better suited to defend the paint in late game situations. If that is the case, then I hope by then that someone else becomes much better at providing scoring in end game situations, because right now I believe that West is the most consistent scorer we have in those situations.

    As for our starting unit being as is for 5 years, I just don't see it. Even with a top-performing team like we had in the late 90s, that has never been the case. I don't see it now. First off, West will be a free agent and I don't see the Pacers paying him the type of money that it might take to retain him, which is probably about what he is making now. The only way would be if West will give us a break due to an enjoyment he has in playing with this team or due to some new-found loyalty he might have. But playing him his present dollars would only set us up for team salary difficulties when have to renegotiate with Granger and George.

    I believe that this season is put up or shut up time for Paul George. If he does not elevate his game quite a bit this year, the Pacers might even go a different direction at SG. Who knows.... maybe by acquiring a new PG and moving Hill to SG. But at any rate, if tinkering with the roster through rebuilding the bench is not the answer, I don't believe TPTB will hesitate for a moment to look at attempting to bring in a new starter or two.
    Thanks, great read. I always enjoy your boarding as you know.


    Anywho, I completely agree with this being a make or break year for Paul George. He really needs to prove that he's going to be a major part of this teams future, or they'll have to start considering other directions. I think he'll prove that quite easily.

    Getting back to my complaints of the starters, I wanted to address why I thought they didn't play the best in the playoffs despite building leads against Miami.

    Miami was clearly not at full strength without Chris Bosh in the series which clearly changed the tone of the series. It is one big reason why we got an early 2-1 lead. While in general all season our starters were building leads and the bench was losing them. I believe Miami at full strength would have been able to do a better job against our starters.

    While Indiana has definitely gotten better this offseason, so has Miami. So instead of simply hoping Indiana's young talent in Roy, Paul and Hill make up the difference because of their growth, I'd rather see TPTB make a concerted effort to improve possible weaknesses the team has. More to the point, even if the Pacers young talent could be predicted to make this team that much better, it still doesn't change the fact that Pacers do have particular weaknesses that could be addressed immediately. If all three young players made vast improvements AND we addressed our weakness at the 4 for instance, how great would Indiana be then?

    I'll concede however, that we are going to see a very good Indiana team and their is a possibility they can take us to the next level. I have my doubts, but that is why we play the season.

    P.S. Here's a silver lining to my somewhat bleak forecast of the future: (take heart! haha) Many people in the Pacers organization will read this thread, and it'll give them an idea on why at least a group of Pacers fans don't entirely buy into Donnie's plan. (not suggesting I personally have any influence, I'm suggesting the Pacers are very in tune to what fans in general are thinking)

    So at the very least if what I say is momentarily true, maybe it motivates the TPTB to prove us wrong? Or re-evaluate their thinking? I'm grasping here!
    Last edited by mattie; 08-16-2012 at 07:43 PM.
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    Thank God for this thread. If I had one complaint about PD it would be the rampant optimism.
    Amen. And when you comment on it with a rational well thought out post, you get called a troll.... It does get old....

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Way to go out on a limb there sport. What's next, proclaiming that the Cubs won't win a World Series in the next five years?

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    I am more than content to continue my minority position as resident "I honestly feel we can beat the Heat, Lakers, whoever you throw at us" guy.

    Last season we had early success against Miami, and when they came back swinging we had no answer. We shirked the challenge instead of rising to it.

    I think we learned from that and will be hungry to avenge our loss.

    Yes, the Heat are a very, VERY good BOUGHT team. The Pacers are a very, VERY good TEAM of players who fit and complement each other.

    I still like our chances. Remember the super human games LeWade had to put up to eliminate us. Anytime you force opposing players to play at THAT high a level to simply beat you by a few points, you are in a much better position than you think. It does not take 3-4 "Bad" games from LeWade to make the Heat vulnerable. It simply takes a few games where they aren't absolutely superhuman, scoring 80+ points by themselves.

    Could they do that to us again? Sure. It could happen. But at some point we are going to slow them down JUST enough to let our superior depth win the series.

    Just my 2c.
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    I am more than content to continue my minority position as resident "I honestly feel we can beat the Heat, Lakers, whoever you throw at us" guy.

    Last season we had early success against Miami, and when they came back swinging we had no answer. We shirked the challenge instead of rising to it.

    I think we learned from that and will be hungry to avenge our loss.

    Yes, the Heat are a very, VERY good BOUGHT team. The Pacers are a very, VERY good TEAM of players who fit and complement each other.

    I still like our chances. Remember the super human games LeWade had to put up to eliminate us. Anytime you force opposing players to play at THAT high a level to simply beat you by a few points, you are in a much better position than you think. It does not take 3-4 "Bad" games from LeWade to make the Heat vulnerable. It simply takes a few games where they aren't absolutely superhuman, scoring 80+ points by themselves.

    Could they do that to us again? Sure. It could happen. But at some point we are going to slow them down JUST enough to let our superior depth win the series.

    Just my 2c.
    I'll keep ridin' with ya!

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    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    ...and I'm thankful for posters like TMJ31. Without them, y'all might be taking prozac.

    With that said, I don't think we make it to the finals with this group. The talent has started to converge into very few hands again around the league. A handful of great players are beginning to control their own destinies and that means more championships on the coasts and warm weather cities. Let's face it. When your best player isn't any better than Shawn Marion, you aren't going to load up on rings.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by TMJ31 View Post
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    I am more than content to continue my minority position as resident "I honestly feel we can beat the Heat, Lakers, whoever you throw at us" guy.

    Last season we had early success against Miami, and when they came back swinging we had no answer. We shirked the challenge instead of rising to it.

    I think we learned from that and will be hungry to avenge our loss.

    Yes, the Heat are a very, VERY good BOUGHT team. The Pacers are a very, VERY good TEAM of players who fit and complement each other.

    I still like our chances. Remember the super human games LeWade had to put up to eliminate us. Anytime you force opposing players to play at THAT high a level to simply beat you by a few points, you are in a much better position than you think. It does not take 3-4 "Bad" games from LeWade to make the Heat vulnerable. It simply takes a few games where they aren't absolutely superhuman, scoring 80+ points by themselves.

    Could they do that to us again? Sure. It could happen. But at some point we are going to slow them down JUST enough to let our superior depth win the series.

    Just my 2c.

    Silliness. Stars win championships not good teams with midlevel players. As soon as you realize that you will see how hopeless the Pacer situation really is. The Pacers lost ground to several teams this off season. They will have to fight to be as high as a sixth seed from what I see. They have NO chance against Miami or Boston. None. You can believe anything you want but that is just homerism.....

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Silliness. Stars win championships not good teams with midlevel players. As soon as you realize that you will see how hopeless the Pacer situation really is. The Pacers lost ground to several teams this off season. They will have to fight to be as high as a sixth seed from what I see. They have NO chance against Miami or Boston. None. You can believe anything you want but that is just homerism.....
    Good thing we have three stars, and someone most people believe is a future star, possibly even a superstar.

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    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by hoosierguy View Post
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    Way to go out on a limb there sport. What's next, proclaiming that the Cubs won't win a World Series in the next five years?
    Yeah sport. yeah.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Silliness. Stars win championships not good teams with midlevel players. As soon as you realize that you will see how hopeless the Pacer situation really is. The Pacers lost ground to several teams this off season. They will have to fight to be as high as a sixth seed from what I see. They have NO chance against Miami or Boston. None. You can believe anything you want but that is just homerism.....
    It's not that bad. Boston is done. Jason Terry isn't going to help change the fact that Pierce and Garnett have already aged well past their primes. Every day that passes is a day they weaken and the Pacers get stronger.

    Other teams like Chicago and Miami still are the favorites. There will probably be 3 or 4 other teams contending with the Pacers for positions 3 through 7. That may include Boston, but again, the Pacers have more than a chance against them.

    Edit: I predict a 4 seed. Just dropping Collison and picking up Green, Augustin and Mahimini is probably worth a couple games. Every minute Collison is on the floor is a minute Hill is out of position...and Hill is the better player. Tack on the fact we have a creator in Green on the second unit and a well rounded backup PG in Augustin....and an improving Paul George, Roy Hibbert and Lance Stephenson...its not hard to see this team should be stronger this coming year.
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 08-16-2012 at 09:18 PM.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Good thing we have three stars, and someone most people believe is a future star, possibly even a superstar.
    We have NO stars and we do not have anyone who will ever be a superstar.... You are living in lala land....

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    It's not that bad. Boston is done. Jason Terry isn't going to help change the fact that Pierce and Garnett have already aged well past their primes. Every day that passes is a day they weaken and the Pacers get stronger.

    Other teams like Chicago and Miami still are the favorites. There will probably be 3 or 4 other teams contending with the Pacers for positions 3 through 7. That may include Boston, but again, the Pacers have more than a chance against them.

    Edit: I predict a 4 seed. Just dropping Collison and picking up Green, Augustin and Mahimini is probably worth a couple games. Every minute Collison is on the floor is a minute Hill is out of position...and Hill is the better player. Tack on the fact we have a creator in Green on the second unit and a well rounded backup PG in Augustin....and an improving Paul George, Roy Hibbert and Lance Stephenson...its not hard to see this team should be stronger this coming year.
    I think most people see Boston as being much improved with additions and injured players returning. The Pacers might not win a game against them in a playoff series....

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    It's not that bad. Boston is done. Jason Terry isn't going to help change the fact that Pierce and Garnett have already aged well past their primes. Every day that passes is a day they weaken and the Pacers get stronger.

    Other teams like Chicago and Miami still are the favorites. There will probably be 3 or 4 other teams contending with the Pacers for positions 3 through 7. That may include Boston, but again, the Pacers have more than a chance against them.

    Edit: I predict a 4 seed. Just dropping Collison and picking up Green, Augustin and Mahimini is probably worth a couple games. Every minute Collison is on the floor is a minute Hill is out of position...and Hill is the better player. Tack on the fact we have a creator in Green on the second unit and a well rounded backup PG in Augustin....and an improving Paul George, Roy Hibbert and Lance Stephenson...its not hard to see this team should be stronger this coming year.
    A very fair assessment. However, with DRose possibly out til March, I think the 2nd seed is up for grabs as well. And I believe the Pacers will be in the mix. Our bench was our weak link last year, not our starters, and we made several strides in the positive in regards to it. Good post!

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by mildlysane View Post
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    A very fair assessment. However, with DRose possibly out til March, I think the 2nd seed is up for grabs as well. And I believe the Pacers will be in the mix. Our bench was our weak link last year, not our starters, and we made several strides in the positive in regards to it. Good post!
    Well, lets see. Paul Pierce better than any player the Pacers have, KG better than any player the Pacers have, Jason Terry better than any player the Pacers have and Rondo, WAY better than any player the Pacers have. They are also deeper with the draft, players returning from injury and other aquisitions. If it was a playoff series, I pick the Celtics in four games.....

    If any one here sets homerism aside, they will easily see the same thing. You are not going to get enough improvement in PG, Hibbert and Lance to make up for that.

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    Default Re: Why the Pacers will NOT compete for a championship in the next 5 years

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I think most people see Boston as being much improved with additions and injured players returning. The Pacers might not win a game against them in a playoff series....

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