View Poll Results: Joe Johnson or Lebron James in the last 5 minutes of a game

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  • Lebron James

    23 48.94%
  • Joe Johnson

    3 6.38%
  • Kill me now

    9 19.15%
  • Is this real life?

    12 25.53%
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Thread: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

  1. #26
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    vnzla - nice videos. Yes, LeBron had an embarrassingly weak reputation in terms of confidence/clutch. That's LeBron 101 stuff. Just lacked the confidence. As great as he is, he's not like many of the other greats like Kobe and MJ...and even Wade. Those guys always had supreme confidence in late game situations. They craved the ball. LeBron...even now... does not.

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  3. #27
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    There will always be a never ending argument between people who watch the game as it is and people who just believe ESPN. ESPN's bowl movements or what they refer to as creative narratives are never ever founded in reality. It's how they want you to see the game. But people like BnG and VNZ believe whatever they tell them.

    Oh well.
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  4. #28
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    This is what ESPN has told us:

    Kobe is clutch
    LBJ is not.
    Peyton Manning is a loser
    Tim Tebow is a winner.
    Dwight Howard is a bad person.
    SVG is a good person.
    Kevin Love is a nice guy.
    Artest is a thug.
    Kobe is a rapist.
    Ben Roethlisberger is good at football. (leave his off the field actions out of this!!)
    Tebow is the story of last year.
    Cam Newton? Who's that??

    and many, many more before.

    Thanks ESPN. You keep me on my toes with your constant ********.
    Last edited by mattie; 08-13-2012 at 07:38 PM.
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  5. #29
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    There will always be a never ending argument between people who watch the game as it is and people who just believe ESPN. ESPN's bowl movements or what they refer to as creative narratives are never ever founded in reality. It's how they want you to see the game. But people like BnG and VNZ believe whatever they tell them.

    Oh well.
    I don't even watch ESPN. All you need to do is watch LeBron's demeanor. He has more physical abilities than any NBA player except maybe Chamberlain yet he looks like a scared, wimpering puppy. I can guarantee that LeBron would never win a championship without another spectacular player with killer instinct keeping his confidence up. What LeBron could be is almost unimaginable if he had Reggie Miller's confidence, for example. Arrogant he certainly is. But I've been watching basketball since the 1960's and I know a confident player when I see one. LeBron doesn't have that naturally.

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  7. #30
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    Apparently you didn't read the comment. He said that all of these players were close enough that the choice on who to select in the last five minutes is a personal choice of the selector. I pick LBJ over JJ but I would take Kobe over LBJ even though LBJ is rated higher.... ...
    Yep. I'm all for team play, but when you have a guy as good as Kobe Bryant, you want him to shoot the ball....and you want him to want to do it. That's the difference. LeBron does not crave the ball and when it comes down to the last minute, the very best players will win the game almost for that single reason.

  8. #31
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    This one was on the playoffs two months ago, remember the game where he choked and Lance was doing the sign?



    So now;
    its choking if you dont hit absolutely every clutch shot? Give me a break. Because Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade (your list btw) never choke right? Oh wait:




    Kobe so clutch!!!!

    You see that fantastic game 1 Melo had against the heat in the playoffs where they knicks scored a scorching 67 points?! 11 points on 20% shooting. MELO is spelled CLUTCH right? LeBron scored 32 points that game and shot 10-14 btw.



    Oh and who can forget this choking performance from Melo:


    Kevin Durant missed a game tying shot in game 4 of the finals, he must be a choker too. He did the same thing in game 3 against the Lakers. Dude sucks right? Also:


    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Poq8JY23oD0

    Paul Pierce surely proves your point though:




    Joe Johnson? go to 2:25

    Also lets not forget, Johnson has never been out of the second round of the playoffs.

    Miami has to defer to Wade since LeBron sucks in the clutch. Look how good he is:






    Man, all these superstars are ****ing garbage in the clutch i guess.

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  10. #32
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    I don't even watch ESPN. All you need to do is watch LeBron's demeanor. He has more physical abilities than any NBA player except maybe Chamberlain yet he looks like a scared, wimpering puppy. I can guarantee that LeBron would never win a championship without another spectacular player with killer instinct keeping his confidence up. What LeBron could be is almost unimaginable if he had Reggie Miller's confidence, for example. Arrogant he certainly is. But I've been watching basketball since the 1960's and I know a confident player when I see one. LeBron doesn't have that naturally.
    Yet is was LeBron who was coming up in the clutch in the Olympics on a team with Kobe, Melo, Durant, Paul and more. In the two close games, Lithuania and Spain, LeBron came up biggest. But no, LeBron doesn't have any of that "natural instinct". He just defers to everyone other star right?

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  12. #33
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Originally Posted by vnzla81
    Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?



    No. It is clear that Lebron has gotten better this year. He took over games in the finals. And no I don't think he is better than Jordan. But this is clearly not the same Lebron as last year. And game 4 against us was the coming out party. I am not a fan of him, because of his antics. But he has grown up a lot. And winning the gold and the championship is prove. It isn't a mask.

    Will he be a legend on Jordan's level? If you asked me last year I would say no. But this year he grew up. Developed a nice step back mid-range jumper. Was able to take two dribbles on the open three and hit the corner spot up shooter. Last year he would have taken the open three.

    Lebron is blossoming. He was always had the skill. Now he has the maturation.

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  14. #34
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    LeBron has all the confidence in the world. He just makes the right basketball play no matter what the clock says. If its the first play of the game, or the last he's just going to make the smart play. So, yes you can force the ball out of his hands in the clutch but that's no lack of confidence. It's how he plays, at all times.

    I don't see a problem with it either. He's going to find the best shot on the floor, even if its not his. More often than not that's going to go in your favor. People like making a big deal out of nothing.

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  16. #35
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    So now;
    its choking if you dont hit absolutely every clutch shot? Give me a break. Because Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade (your list btw) never choke right? Oh wait:




    Kobe so clutch!!!!

    You see that fantastic game 1 Melo had against the heat in the playoffs where they knicks scored a scorching 67 points?! 11 points on 20% shooting. MELO is spelled CLUTCH right? LeBron scored 32 points that game and shot 10-14 btw.



    Oh and who can forget this choking performance from Melo:

    Kevin Durant missed a game tying shot in game 4 of the finals, he must be a choker too. He did the same thing in game 3 against the Lakers. Dude sucks right? Also:


    Paul Pierce surely proves your point though:

    Also lets not forget, Johnson has never been out of the second round of the playoffs.

    Miami has to defer to Wade since LeBron sucks in the clutch. Look how good he is:

    Man, all these superstars are ****ing garbage in the clutch i guess.
    Overreacting much? ........ show me all the videos you want and I would still take those guys over Lebron, that is my opinion and if you don't like it and you want to cry about it go ahead.

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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Originally Posted by vnzla81
    Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?



    No. It is clear that Lebron has gotten better this year. He took over games in the finals. And no I don't think he is better than Jordan. But this is clearly not the same Lebron as last year. And game 4 against us was the coming out party. I am not a fan of him, because of his antics. But he has grown up a lot. And winning the gold and the championship is prove. It isn't a mask.

    Will he be a legend on Jordan's level? If you asked me last year I would say no. But this year he grew up. Developed a nice step back mid-range jumper. Was able to take two dribbles on the open three and hit the corner spot up shooter. Last year he would have taken the open three.

    Lebron is blossoming. He was always had the skill. Now he has the maturation.
    Yep I agree that he got better(after choking on the first few two games with the Pacers) but I still don't trust him enough, maybe another year of not choking
    could change my thinking.

  18. #37
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    LeBron has all the confidence in the world. He just makes the right basketball play no matter what the clock says. If its the first play of the game, or the last he's just going to make the smart play. So, yes you can force the ball out of his hands in the clutch but that's no lack of confidence. It's how he plays, at all times.

    I don't see a problem with it either. He's going to find the best shot on the floor, even if its not his. More often than not that's going to go in your favor. People like making a big deal out of nothing.
    That's why he's so great. LBJ plays great basketball.

    Someone like Kobe though hurts his team because his desire to be the hero tops his desire to win. He'd rather take a forces shot while double teamed than pass to an open man who could help win the game.

    LBJ is truly great.
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  19. #38

    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Rudy Gay

  20. #39
    Member Ace E.Anderson's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Before game 4 against the pacers, Lebron was not very good in the clutch. He did choke in the finals against the Mavs and he had come up small multiple times throughout his career, both regular season and in the playoffs. After game 4 against the pacers, he played very well and very clutch throughout the rest of the playoffs and the Olympics. Time will tell if he's turned the corner or not, but his recent success doesn't erase years of coming up small...at least in my eyes.

    As for JJ, he (a lot like DG) is a lot more clutch than ppl think. When I think of clutch, I think of momentum swinging shots (or plays) as well as game winners or game tying shots. No way is JJ better than Lebron in any way shape or form, but before that game against the pacers, JJ prob had close to as many clutch plays as Lebron. They're just on a much smaller scale and stage in ATL.

  21. #40
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    Originally Posted by vnzla81
    Lebron chocked on many games last year, winning the Championship has made people forget about it or look the other way, yes he is less Lechoke but I don't think he is out of the woods yet, remember the game of the "good job good effort kidd'?



    No. It is clear that Lebron has gotten better this year. He took over games in the finals. And no I don't think he is better than Jordan. But this is clearly not the same Lebron as last year. And game 4 against us was the coming out party. I am not a fan of him, because of his antics. But he has grown up a lot. And winning the gold and the championship is prove. It isn't a mask.

    Will he be a legend on Jordan's level? If you asked me last year I would say no. But this year he grew up. Developed a nice step back mid-range jumper. Was able to take two dribbles on the open three and hit the corner spot up shooter. Last year he would have taken the open three.

    Lebron is blossoming. He was always had the skill. Now he has the maturation.
    Good lord. Finally a balanced view. Yes, LeBron has grown up. It doesn't take much to tell that. But his resume' for being a cold blooded killer isn't that long. He's just beginning to do it. If he actually had that naturally, he would have been killing it a long time ago. I think y'all who think he's always had it are confusing talent with killer instinct and craving of the ball at crunch time. LeBron was always going to be great, but unless he grasps that killer instinct, he was never going to meet his potential. But like you say, he's beginning to get it. It would be most interesting to see if he'd crawl into his shell if he didn't have DWade (who really was born with *it*)

  22. #41
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    LeBron has all the confidence in the world. He just makes the right basketball play no matter what the clock says. If its the first play of the game, or the last he's just going to make the smart play. So, yes you can force the ball out of his hands in the clutch but that's no lack of confidence. It's how he plays, at all times.

    I don't see a problem with it either. He's going to find the best shot on the floor, even if its not his. More often than not that's going to go in your favor. People like making a big deal out of nothing.
    LeBron has all the arrogance in the world. Very different thing than being naturally confident. He's getting there though, with DWade's teaching...

    Edit: Here is a nice blurb on this:

    Arrogance uses the mask of confidence but it has no real basis for showing off, while confidence never shows off and it always relies on facts and knowledge.
    Also the confident knows what it is to be known and knows precisely how to act achieving the expected result, while the arrogant pretends to know and usually screws up. The confident has nothing to hide, he knows who he is and he's not ashamed of anything, while the arrogant pretends to be someone he isn't and by that hiding his true self of which he is ashamed..
    Last edited by BlueNGold; 08-13-2012 at 08:41 PM.

  23. #42
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    Before game 4 against the pacers, Lebron was not very good in the clutch. He did choke in the finals against the Mavs and he had come up small multiple times throughout his career, both regular season and in the playoffs. After game 4 against the pacers, he played very well and very clutch throughout the rest of the playoffs and the Olympics. Time will tell if he's turned the corner or not, but his recent success doesn't erase years of coming up small...at least in my eyes. .
    Fact. Every word.

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  25. #43
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    LBJ has had the best performance of every player over the last 5 years in clutch time. He has always been the best. This cannot be disputed. The numbers speak for themselves.

    It is a little more accurate that LBJ has definitely learned to dominate a game in the playoffs when the absolute best teams in the country are throwing their best at him. That much is true. Much like Shaq in 2000, LBJ finally figured out how to dominate a game through 4 quarters late in the playoffs.

    But the idea that he has faded in late game situations is patently false. And I have the numbers to prove it.
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  26. #44
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Overreacting much? ........ show me all the videos you want and I would still take those guys over Lebron, that is my opinion and if you don't like it and you want to cry about it go ahead.
    You missed the point. I posted the videos to show how stupid it is to post youtube highlights as a supporting claim to LeBron's not clutch. You can do that for every star because no one is perfect.

    So many people define clutch as the last second shot, when thats just a small piece of it. To say Lebron isn't clutch means you don't understand what clutch truly is. Thats why those clutch stats you posted are the last 5 minutes in a 5 point game. LeBron has been excelling in that situation for so long. Look at previous seasons for the same stat:

    2011-2012 http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
    2010-2011 http://www.82games.com/1011/CSORT11.HTM
    2009-2010 http://www.82games.com/0910/CSORT11.HTM
    2008-2009 http://www.82games.com/0809/CSORT11.HTM

    so in the last 4 seasons, Lebron has been in the top 5 every year. Even leading the league back in 09-10. And thats just on points. And when you factor in shooting %, rebounding, assists and defense, its not that close honestly. He is the TOP performer because he gets it done on both ends of the court.

    There is no reason to think that LeBron isn't clutch other than because he has missed buzzer beaters that ESPN talks about for a half hour on sports center. What would you rather, Kobe taking a highly contested 3, or LeBron hitting Haslem for a wide open jumper? Which is the smarter basketball play? The pass. Thats the play that LeBron makes and gets vilified for by the media because they have it in their head that LeBron needs to be the one to physically put the ball in the hoop, rather than making the correct play.

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  28. #45
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Since LBJ is better than anyone else over the first 37 minutes of the game, I'll keep him out there for the final 5 minutes as well.

  29. #46
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    There is no reason to think that LeBron isn't clutch other than because he has missed buzzer beaters that ESPN talks about for a half hour on sports center. What would you rather, Kobe taking a highly contested 3, or LeBron hitting Haslem for a wide open jumper? Which is the smarter basketball play? The pass. Thats the play that LeBron makes and gets vilified for by the media because they have it in their head that LeBron needs to be the one to physically put the ball in the hoop, rather than making the correct play.
    Quoted for truth.
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  30. #47
    I have a Member xBulletproof's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Quote Originally Posted by BlueNGold View Post
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    LeBron has all the arrogance in the world. Very different thing than being naturally confident. He's getting there though, with DWade's teaching...

    Edit: Here is a nice blurb on this:

    Arrogance uses the mask of confidence but it has no real basis for showing off, while confidence never shows off and it always relies on facts and knowledge.
    Also the confident knows what it is to be known and knows precisely how to act achieving the expected result, while the arrogant pretends to know and usually screws up. The confident has nothing to hide, he knows who he is and he's not ashamed of anything, while the arrogant pretends to be someone he isn't and by that hiding his true self of which he is ashamed..
    This is your interpretation of it, obviously. One I clearly don't agree with. If he was as insecure as you believe he'd be crawling in a hole with all the criticism he gets. Anyone that insecure would start chucking bad shots at the end of games to appease the critics claiming he should take the last shot. Yet, he hasn't changed how he plays to appease anyone.

    I doubt he's learning anything from Wade, as much as its learning how to play with and off teammates who aren't terrible.

  31. #48

    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    LOL at the people acting like Lebron has been "awful in the 4th quarter consistently until last years playoffs or whatnot. Tell me why LEbron's PER in the 4th quarter is consistently amongst the best in the league? Because he makes the best god damn plays. Just because Skip Bayless or ESPN says something it doesn't mean its true. Granted, he was freaking awful against Dallas last year.

    But the way people acted like Lebron has been awful in 4th Q's his entire career is just blasphemous. Y'all need to rewatch some Cleveland vs Detroit playoff series methinks.

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  33. #49
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Last thoughts on this right quick. I don't mean to continue to beat this dead horse but I kinda gotta.

    When you repeat these ESPN driven narratives and then say, "I don't watch ESPN" (haha uh yeah you do, you can't follow sports today without watching ESPN sorry) we can see right through it because there is no where else you could have come up with the concept.

    LBJ since he entired the league as a rookie has been dominating games in the 4th. It's just a fact. You had to have gotten the idea from somewhere. It would have been impossible for you to come up with the idea on your own because you cannot just watch LBJ play and then suddenly decide "he's not clutch."

    ESPN's nonstop attempts to bring LBJ down a notch is where the idea originated from. It'd be impossible for you to watch LBJ over his career average more points, rebounds, assists, steals and blocks than any other player in close games and then say, "he's not clutch derrrrrrrr!"

    At least own it. You watch ESPN like the rest of us. Only YOU take them seriously. The rest of us don't unless they actually say something worth repeating.
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    Default Re: Last 5 minutes of a game who ya got?

    Joe Johnson vs Lebron James? How random.
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