Popular opinion doesn't prove anything. But this probably does: LBJ has outperformed every other player in the NBA in the last 5 minutes of a game when the game is within 5 points. That is a fact that cannot be disputed.
EDIT - Oh wait...you're asking about Players not on the Pacers roster.
I'll go with Lebron. He's a total mismatch for the entire NBA.
Ash from Army of Darkness: Good...Bad...I'm the guy with the gun.
I cannot believe that this is even in question......
this is actually worse than, "Is Brandon Rush a consistent 3 point threat" thread.
Lebron gets so much **** for not taking the last second shot, when 90% of the time, he is making the right basketball play. And in the last 5 minutes, there is no better player than LeBron to rely on. He can do it all.
vnzla, if you really would take Joe Johnson in the last 5 minutes of the game over LeBron James, I am never going to take another word you say seriously. Even Skip Bayless would take LeBron over JJ.
Once again TraderJoe is trying to get all the attention, I guess I'm going to open a thread anytime I disagree with somebody so the other people can make me feel better by giving me a pat on the back
Either way here are the 2011-2012 clutch numbers: http://www.82games.com/CSORT11.HTM
1 - Irving
2- Melo (the one who many here think Danny is equal to )
5- Westbrook (the one that many here think is a choker)
8- Monta Ellis ( yes that guy)
10- Joe Johnson
and Danny is rated 14th, so just because somebody prefers a player over another player in crunch time doesn't mean that that player is better than the other player or is so ridiculous that somebody has to open a new thread to try to ridicule that other person, great try TJ and big fail in your part.
You are quoted in the OP saying you would take JJ over LeBron in the clutch. I don't care what the other argument was about. Thats what we are discussing in this thread.
Before game 4 against the pacers, Lebron was not very good in the clutch. He did choke in the finals against the Mavs and he had come up small multiple times throughout his career, both regular season and in the playoffs. After game 4 against the pacers, he played very well and very clutch throughout the rest of the playoffs and the Olympics. Time will tell if he's turned the corner or not, but his recent success doesn't erase years of coming up small...at least in my eyes.
As for JJ, he (a lot like DG) is a lot more clutch than ppl think. When I think of clutch, I think of momentum swinging shots (or plays) as well as game winners or game tying shots. No way is JJ better than Lebron in any way shape or form, but before that game against the pacers, JJ prob had close to as many clutch plays as Lebron. They're just on a much smaller scale and stage in ATL.
Anyway, I think we may have some issues here on term, if it came down to a last second three, and the player I picked had to take it, I'd pick Joe Johnson because he is a better shooter, but in terms of clutch play, which is stuff other than just shooting, I'd take the more complete player. Lebron is a 5 tool player, maybe the only one in the NBA (Scoring, ball handling, passing, defense (on ball and team), and rebounding) and he does all of them very well in late game situations, just because he does not always take the last shot does not mean he is just clutch.
As far as letting everyone "pat me on the back", I've tried to address everyone of your posts directly and hold a conversation between you and me as well. Honestly, I was interested to see if anyone else would go out on the same limb as you, not ridicule you just so that's on the record. Like I said if we're taking a game winning three pointer, this conversation may change a bit.
Last edited by Trader Joe; 08-14-2012 at 09:05 AM.
LeBron has become a great player down the stretch, but he had to learn that from DWade...
Wade: "hey LBJ, play better in late games ok?"
LBJ: "Oh yeah?? Ok! Good idea!"
*LBJ players better*
LBJ has put up MUCH better stats in late games in Cleveland than he has in Miami. I'd argue Wade hurt LBJ because the media pulled a narrative out of their *** that suggested Wade was better in late games than LBJ.
its choking if you dont hit absolutely every clutch shot? Give me a break. Because Kobe, Melo, Durant, Pierce, JJ and Wade (your list btw) never choke right? Oh wait:
Kobe so clutch!!!!
You see that fantastic game 1 Melo had against the heat in the playoffs where they knicks scored a scorching 67 points?! 11 points on 20% shooting. MELO is spelled CLUTCH right? LeBron scored 32 points that game and shot 10-14 btw.
Oh and who can forget this choking performance from Melo:
Kevin Durant missed a game tying shot in game 4 of the finals, he must be a choker too. He did the same thing in game 3 against the Lakers. Dude sucks right? Also:
Paul Pierce surely proves your point though:
Joe Johnson? go to 2:25
Also lets not forget, Johnson has never been out of the second round of the playoffs.
Miami has to defer to Wade since LeBron sucks in the clutch. Look how good he is:
Man, all these superstars are ****ing garbage in the clutch i guess.
Yes. I know what ESPN told you. I also know they were wrong. and I can prove it. Go to 82games.com and check everyone season prior to 10-11. James had by far the best performance out of everyone every year and it wasn't even close.
Scared? LBJ didn't play scared when he scored 29 points straight against Detroit. The only time LBJ ever really played bad was the 10-11 Finals. An anomaly. That same playoffs the series prior he dominated the leagues MVP by himself.
The whole "LBJ isn't clutch" was always an absurd ridiculous narrative that had absolutely no evidence in support of it.
Also look at more of those stats. You have highlighted points scored only. So they shoot pretty similarly. LeBron scores more in the last 5 mins. LeBron scores more on his own in the last 5 mins. LeBron rebounds at a way higher rate in the last 5 mins. LeBron dishes way more assists in the last 5 mins. LeBron blocks way more shots in the last 5 mins. Lebron gets more steals in the last 5 mins.
What i see is one player that is far superior on both offense and defense in the last 5 mins of the game. Lebron is that player.
Here is also a nice article that explains JJ's numbers in "clutch time"(five minutes or less with less than five points)
Piggybacking off of Tom Haberstroh's Twitter Timeline, we checkout NBA.com Advanced Stats to look at how clutch Joe Johnson has been so far this year.
My uneducated guess before looking? Seems like Joe has been better because the end of games have been less forced and multiple folks getting the ball later, though it hasn't ignored Joe either. Not every possession goes into Iso-Joe, making the times that he does slightly more effective. Or does it?
What did we find? (Hint: click that link to see the data for yourself)
This season, so far, Joe Johnson has indeed been clutch.
Clutch, as defined by NBA.com, is player performance in the last five minutes of games when the score margin is within five points.
For Joe, everything in the scoring area has gone up, from traditional shooting percentage (49 percent from 43) to all advanced metrics, Joe improves in the last five minutes of games.
His usage goes up, from 27 percent to 36 percent and his offensive rating increases also (113.8 from 101.8), without any incline in defensive rating (96.5 from 96.7), leaving his net efficiency even higher in the clutch.
Turnovers down, as is everything that is not associated with scoring -- apparently clutch time is Joe's time with the ball as rebounding and assist rate drop as his scoring/offensive efficiency increase.
So Joe's been clutch this season -- how does he compare to last season, a noted down year for Joe? Well, he was not as clutch as this year -- his shooting percentages all around went down and usage went up to the same level as this season, though his +/- and overall efficiency margin improved.
Even if he is taking approximately the same amount per 36 minutes (18.8 this season to 19.2 last), maybe he is taking better shots in the clutch than last season, because he is making more (9.1 vs 6.7). Though consider also that he is making more threes this year than last, likely making everything look better.
Looking deeper into the stats, we see that compared to last year Joe is getting more clutch minutes per "clutch game played", presumably because the Hawks are locked in more tight games late, including overtimes games. To date, Joe has played 67 clutch minutes in 12 games compared to 107 clutch minutes in 34 games last season.
As far as location stats, Joe is actually shooting slightly fewer shots from mid-range and closer in clutch time than last season (72% last season to 66% this season), but more successful this season (52% this season to 37% last season).
Exit Question: What do you think -- do the stats lie regarding Joe? Or is he -- gasp! -- clutch?