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Thread: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

  1. #76
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    If we're counting the comics, I'm honestly of the opinion that a case could be made for each. I mean, the Joker has had so many origin stories that no one (including probably himself) is sure if ANY are the accurate story, which IMO adds to his lore.

    On the other hand, we KNOW where Bane came from.
    Just keep it within the trilogy. The comics are a completely different story.

    I also agree. Which is ironic because the joker has two different stories as to how he got his scars in the film.
    Sort of a hidden tribute to his comic background.
    Last edited by Constellations; 08-01-2012 at 10:07 PM.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Saying that Ras and Talia/Bane have more depth than The Joker is like saying that a bad team with 15 players has more depth than a good team with 13 players.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    I don't get all this "depth" talk. I loved TDK, and I loved TDKR. I loved Ledger's Joker and Hardy's Bane--for very different reasons. That's good enough for me. I don't need to delve into why/if I like one more than the other.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    Ok. who has more backstory? Joker or Bane?
    Back story is not the same as depth, and for the record I'd say on back story they are about equal which is to say we know very little about either one.

    Also, Hicks, I'd say this is closest to my definition of depth (for Joker and Bane as well as TDK and TDKR) in this conversation ... Intellectual complexity or penetration; profundity
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 08-02-2012 at 12:11 AM.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by cdash View Post
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    I don't get all this "depth" talk. I loved TDK, and I loved TDKR. I loved Ledger's Joker and Hardy's Bane--for very different reasons. That's good enough for me. I don't need to delve into why/if I like one more than the other.
    Were not discussing whether or why we like the characters, were discussing their depth. Depth, as in, how far their character goes back within the content given to us from the films.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Back story is not the same as depth, and for the record I'd say on back story they are about equal which is to say we know very little about either one.

    Also, Hicks, I'd say this is closest to my definition of depth (for Joker and Bane as well as TDK and TDKR) in this conversation ... Intellectual complexity or penetration; profundity
    You can honestly say the Joker and Bane's back story are equal. (Again, keeping just within the trilogy)

    5 Facts


    Bane facts:

    1. He was an inmate at Blackgate Prison
    2. He was Talia Al Ghul's protector
    3. He was beaten severely within Blackgate which explains his mask.
    4. Ras Al Ghul returned to Blackgate to retrieve Bane.
    5. Bane was trained by the League of Shadows

    Joker Facts:
    1. He's a criminal.

    (Again, this is what makes the Joker such an amazing villain in this trilogy. His background is absolutely unknown.)
    Last edited by Constellations; 08-02-2012 at 03:33 AM.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    You can honestly say the Joker and Bane's back story are equal. (Again, keeping just within the trilogy)

    5 Facts


    Bane facts:

    1. He was an inmate at Blackgate Prison
    2. He was Talia Al Ghul's protector
    3. He was beaten severely within Blackgate which explains his mask.
    4. Ras Al Ghul returned to Blackgate to retrieve Bane.
    5. Bane was trained by the League of Shadows

    Joker Facts:
    1. He's a criminal.

    (Again, this is what makes the Joker such an amazing villain in this trilogy. His background is absolutely unknown.)
    Yeah, but if one of the two Joker stories in TDK is true, then you actually know way more about the Joker's past. The one thing we never really know is why Bane is Talia's protector in the first place in Blackgate? That bothers me.

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  9. #83
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Just reading around I had a few thoughts...

    First, I agree with an earlier post from Hicks, I think TDR suffered from the Joker's absence and it was bizarre that the same fighting style took down Bain. I liked the film, but I was let down. Bot because Joker wasn't around, it just wasn't as good as I thought it was going to be.

    If we are still on comparing Batman movies, the Penguin honestly might still be my favorite villain and I'm surprised he hasn't been mentioned. That scene in Batman Returns when Penguin emerges from the water throwing up green blood to kill Batman, collapses to his death, then carried to his watery grave by his penguin family is awesome.

    I hated Batman Begins. Scarecrow was my favorite character from comics and the 90s cartoons. I think BB did an awful job.

    X-Men by far had the most depth. I learned a lot about society and racism at an early age from those comics and the 90s cartoon.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Not to nitpick, but Bane and Talia were imprisoned in "the Pit", not Blackgate.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    Were not discussing whether or why we like the characters, were discussing their depth. Depth, as in, how far their character goes back within the content given to us from the films.
    I understand that. I just think it's pointless.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    You can honestly say the Joker and Bane's back story are equal. (Again, keeping just within the trilogy)

    5 Facts


    Bane facts:

    1. He was an inmate at Blackgate Prison
    2. He was Talia Al Ghul's protector
    3. He was beaten severely within Blackgate which explains his mask.
    4. Ras Al Ghul returned to Blackgate to retrieve Bane.
    5. Bane was trained by the League of Shadows

    Joker Facts:
    1. He's a criminal.

    (Again, this is what makes the Joker such an amazing villain in this trilogy. His background is absolutely unknown.)
    I believe Blackgate is the name of the prison Bane busts open in Gotham City, not the name of the prison he and Talia were in overseas.

  14. #87
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    As to acting? Um, hello.....Ian mcKellen for God's sake.

    Sure Ledger did a rendition of the Joker that resonated with some of you, a lot of you, ok almost all of you. But McKellen is Magneto.

    You guys can argue all you want over who did the best Joker but there is nobody on the planet that will ever say that someone could do a better Magneto, ok that may be hyperbole but you get my point.

    Just my opinion here but leaving you wanting more is not necessarily a sign of depth of character. It doesn't mean that it's lack of depth either so in the end I kind of find that a neutral quality.
    I'm a fan of Ian McKellen from both the X-Men movies and LOTR, but what's so special about his portrayal of Magneto? I liked him a lot in the role, but were you mesmerized by it or something? I don't understand the comparison. I thought Ledger was more interesting to watch, personally. And, again, I'm a fan of McKellen's Magneto. I just don't see the point in raving about it. As for 'McKellen is Magneto', well, up until First Class there was literally no competition, and frankly I think Fassbender deserves a lot of credit for his take on the role as well. I liked both actors in that role.

    Also I believe earlier you were discussing how Marvel villains are shades of gray and DC villains are just black. Well, there's a lot of truth to that, but to be fair I thought they did a decent job in Batman Begins of making Ra's a shade of gray. He felt he was doing the world a favor and that he was fighting his interpretation of evil, remember. He's a DARK shade of grey because of his methods, but he thinks he's doing greater good. Not unlike Magneto's views on dealing with homosapiens IMO. Different struggle, but in both cases you have people doing what they truly feel is best but they both use harsh methods to carry out their will. Neither thinks of themselves as evil.

    Bane seems to be a black hat wearer, though. I'd say for the most part the same is true of the Joker, but I'll caveat him with the part where he feels he's just ahead of the cultural learning curve with regards to what is appropriate human behavior (or at least that's what he argues).

    But the general point is sound that Marvel villains tend to be more gray than black and DC villains tend to be more black than gray. At least from my somewhat limited experiences with both universes.

    Then again, Norman Osborne is pretty black hat in a lot of his stories, IIRC.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Yeah, but if one of the two Joker stories in TDK is true, then you actually know way more about the Joker's past. The one thing we never really know is why Bane is Talia's protector in the first place in Blackgate? That bothers me.
    The fact is we don't.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Not to nitpick, but Bane and Talia were imprisoned in "the Pit", not Blackgate.


    My mistake.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    I thought the best scene in the movie was when Batman finally got out of the pit. That was great

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    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I thought the best scene in the movie was when Batman finally got out of the pit. That was great
    I wish that moment stirred me more, but for some reason it doesn't.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I wish that moment stirred me more, but for some reason it doesn't.
    i think its cause it was predictable that he had to do it without the rope. seemed obvious to met at least.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    As to acting? Um, hello.....Ian mcKellen for God's sake.

    Sure Ledger did a rendition of the Joker that resonated with some of you, a lot of you, ok almost all of you. But McKellen is Magneto.

    You guys can argue all you want over who did the best Joker but there is nobody on the planet that will ever say that someone could do a better Magneto, ok that may be hyperbole but you get my point.

    Just my opinion here but leaving you wanting more is not necessarily a sign of depth of character. It doesn't mean that it's lack of depth either so in the end I kind of find that a neutral quality.

    Ian McKellen is the actor most associated with Magneto, but that's because the character has only been in four live-action projects.... and TBH, by the end of this newest trilogy, Michael Fassbender might be held in just as high or higher regard. I honestly don't know what the most memorable Magneto scene from the original trilogy is, but I can tell you 3 or 4 unforgettable scenes that Fassbender nailed. He's one of the most talented actors alive today and his best performances resonate at least as well as McKellen's best.

    The only reason that some people don't consider Ledger's Joker to be as definitive is because we've had three great, different renditions of the character (including the TV show) and the fact that so many Batman fanboys love the Mark Hamill performances from the cartoons and video games.

    JMO
    Last edited by spreedom; 08-02-2012 at 06:39 PM.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I thought the best scene in the movie was when Batman finally got out of the pit. That was great
    The most memorable single shot from the movie to me is when Bane knocks Batman down and hits a few unprotected shots to his mask/helmet, denting it. I thought for a second that they were going to kill Bruce off right there.

    Besides the Bane/Batman sewer fight, I think most of my favorite scenes were with Catwoman/Blake. I really think those two stole the show.

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  24. #95

    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    The first TV show that I can ever remember watching was Batman in 1966. The Batman movie with Adam West was also the first movie I remember being taken to. I have fond memories of that movie and the TV series especially, as I watched it religiously when it was on twice a week, at least for the first two seasons.

    Now I find myself amazed at 2 things. I'm old, but when I look at the folks that are older than me, I realize that these are not the folks that are going to super hero movies, despite the fact that these folks, like me, also grew up with super hero TV shows or serials at theaters (e.g., the George Reeve Superman shows and Batman serials). Then I look at myself, and I think to myself that I cannot imagine a day when I will be too old that I would not want to go to the movies to see a great super hero movie. The other thing I find interesting, actually more gratifying really, is that whether you consider the old Batman TV series or the Tim Burton movies (let's forget Batman and Robin and that other one!) or now the Nolan trilogy, these all succeeded in terms of what the producers/directors were trying to accomplish. For example, the Batman TV series was supposed to be campy right from the get-go. I for one am still hopeful that the TV show will come out on DVD some time in the not-too-distant future.

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    Quote Originally Posted by spreedom View Post
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    The most memorable single shot from the movie to me is when Bane knocks Batman down and hits a few unprotected shots to his mask/helmet, denting it. I thought for a second that they were going to kill Bruce off right there.

    Besides the Bane/Batman sewer fight, I think most of my favorite scenes were with Catwoman/Blake. I really think those two stole the show.
    In general fight scenes do nothing for me. Although they weren't bad in particular, I still didn't find them intriquing

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    That particular fight scene however was terrific. You could just feel the tension. Batman is all alone in the sewers, with a horde of people around him and a physically imposing figuring beating the crap out of him. He couldn't escape, he was out of shape, and you knew Batman was going to lose, but you couldn't look away. It was really well done.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Honest question, why is the fight scene between Bane & Batman any better than the fight scene between Daredevil & Kingpin?


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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Honest question, why is the fight scene between Bane & Batman any better than the fight scene between Daredevil & Kingpin?
    As someone who hasn't seen it, isn't Daredevil generally regarded as a truly terrible movie? As in, among the worst of all time?
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    As someone who hasn't seen it, isn't Daredevil generally regarded as a truly terrible movie? As in, among the worst of all time?
    You mean worst movie of all time or worst superhero movie of all time? I'm not sure it's considered either really but maybe the worst superhero film by some.

    I will tell you if you have ever seen the directors cut vs the regular film you will see that it is a totally different film, however since you've never see either I guess it wouldn't matter.

    I liked the film but I freely admit to bias as I much prefer Daredevil to Batman, but I am in the VAST minority on that one. Honestly I thought both the Kingpin & Bullseye were played perfectly in that film. The weak link was probably either Ben Affleck as Daredevil or Jennifer Garner as Electra but even with both of them I didn't mind.

    But the fight scene in particular between Daredevil & Kingpin IMO is as good as any combat scene that is not Iron Man vs. Thor.


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