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Thread: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

  1. #51
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    After I saw the movie a second time, I liked it more. First time, thought it was a good movie. Second time, I was able to let go of some of the pacing issues since I knew what was going on, and that helped me appreciate it a lot more. The lines Hathaway is given are still completely garbage so it is wonder she makes her character enjoyable at all.

    Still not as good or as original as Dark Knight but still a good flick.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Honestly, to me, there was no point in trying to compare TDKR to TDK. Its like trying to follow the Godfather Part II, except is TDKR totally awesome unlike the Godfather III.

    I've had an absolute blast picking out the homages to the comic storyarcs over the trilogy.
    Last edited by Sandman21; 07-30-2012 at 02:49 PM.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Yes, but calling yourself a "Batman Loremaster" as a reason his argument is correct and mine is not is a pretty subjective thing, especially when he has no idea what my background is in Batman "lore". Perhaps I am a Loremaster as well. Or maybe a I am a lore expert, or even better yet a lore aficionado.
    I didn't need to know your background with Batman. Your comments gave me all the info I needed.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    I didn't need to know your background with Batman. Your comments gave me all the info I needed.
    See I could just as easily say the same thing about you. That's the cool thing about words like "loremaster". They're not real so what they actually mean can't be quantified.

    See when you say stuff like this you build yourself your own trap, you are suggesting there is only one right answer to a question that is entirely an opinion. I appreciate the fact that you THINK you are a "loremaster", but the fact is, which movie has more "depth" to it is entirely based on opinion and can't be proven one way or the other, citing your "loremaster" credentials doesn't prove anything. And completely ignores the fact that you have zero idea how much I know about Batman lore and history.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 07-30-2012 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    See I could just as easily say the same thing about you. That's the cool thing about words like "loremaster". They're not real so what they actually mean can't be quantified.

    See when you say stuff like this you build yourself your own trap, you are suggesting there is only one right answer to a question that is entirely an opinion. I appreciate the fact that you THINK you are a "loremaster", but the fact is, which movie has more "depth" to it is entirely based on opinion and can't be proven one way or the other, citing your "loremaster" credentials doesn't prove anything. And completely ignores the fact that you have zero idea how much I know about Batman lore and history.
    Ok.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Is it just an opinion, though? I mean I think TDK gives us a lot more Joker details than TDKR gives us Bane details. This is referring to their characteristics, not just their backstory.

    Well, really, the above doesn't even matter much until this is agreed upon first: Let's define 'depth' in this context. If you guys can't even agree on a definition of the root word this entire back and forth is centered around, well, what's the point?

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    I think any time you're dealing in what is a deeper movie, then it's an opinion. Maybe Constellations finds Rises more in depth due to all the different story lines it has going there is just a lot going on in that movie. I like TDK more because I believe it has deeper characters and a deeper main story line.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    I thought this was about the deeper character between Joker and Bane?

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I thought this was about the deeper character between Joker and Bane?
    I said just keep within the trilogy. Bane easily has more depth. The man has a backstory that is explained. The joker, to whom I love, has depth, but not comparable. What the Jokers backstory? Resolved.

    Which movie has more depth? Well, considering Begins ties in with Rises...resolved. TDK almost doesn't ( I said almost ) belong within the trilogy considering the storyline. Yet they were able to connect all 3. As far as the Joker goes involving Ras's holocaust, it just doesn't play the part.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Yeah, the big strong guy helping his girlfriend kill the hero that murdered her father because he wanted to destroy something the hero loved is way more in depth and original than the villain who gives two different backstories for his character development, challenges the very fiber of what Batman is (will he always be just another freak in a mask or can he be something more?), and is running amok causing mayhem for maybe no reason or for maybe a very certain reason, we never really get to find out.

    Sorry, but Bane and Talia's story is pretty much standard comic book fare in terms of motives, what the hell was the Joker motivated by? He suggests any number of things, and that is what makes him a much more fascinating character and the Dark Knight a more fascinating in depth movie.

    Personally, I would have preferred Bane without Talia in Rises, instead the big twist at the end zone is just basically like finding out Bane is in the friend zone level 9000.
    All you did was convince me that neither has depth.

    X-Men villains these characters ain't.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    I said just keep within the trilogy. Bane easily has more depth. The man has a backstory that is explained. The joker, to whom I love, has depth, but not comparable. What the Jokers backstory? Resolved.

    Which movie has more depth? Well, considering Begins ties in with Rises...resolved. TDK almost doesn't ( I said almost ) belong within the trilogy considering the storyline. Yet they were able to connect all 3. As far as the Joker goes involving Ras's holocaust, it just doesn't play the part.
    How does the movie and villain that, by your own admission, is able to stand completely on it's own without the rest of the trilogy have less depth than the two movies that rely on one another to tell a story. How is Bane's backstory explained? All we know is he was Talia's protector, we don't know why or how he was even in the prison at all.

    At this point, we're clearly just going in circles. So I appreciate your point, and you're more than welcome to it, but I completely disagree with you, both on the point of Joker vs. Bane and Rises vs. TDK.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 08-01-2012 at 12:13 AM.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by rexnom View Post
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    All you did was convince me that neither has depth.

    X-Men villains these characters ain't.
    I don't get what X-Men villains have to do with either TDK or Rises...you Marvel guys seem to want to compare movies to comic books and I just don't think you can do that.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    How does the movie and villain that, by your own admission, is able to stand completely on it's own without the rest of the trilogy have less depth than the two movies that rely on one another to tell a story. How is Bane's backstory explained? All we know is he was Talia's protector, we don't know why or how he was even in the prison at all.

    At this point, we're clearly just going in circles. So I appreciate your point, and you're more than welcome to it, but I completely disagree with you, both on the point of Joker vs. Bane and Rises vs. TDK.
    I just don't see how you're not seeing that clear difference in depth of these characters
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I don't get what X-Men villains have to do with either TDK or Rises...you Marvel guys seem to want to compare movies to comic books and I just don't think you can do that.
    Compare them to the movies then.

    Is either the Joker, Bane or Ra's al Ghul even close in depth to Magneto? You may like the characters more, you may like the movies more but the one over riding theme to all DC villains (movie or books) is that they are bad/evil and have evil intent and are in contrast to the hero's who are without a doubt good, black & white so to speak.

    Marvel villains are shades of grey, Magneto is not evil by nature. He just is in the wrong in how to defend his own race (homsuperior) or at least he is in the wrong from our point of view.

    The Joker is the one that always kills me when DC guys talk about depth. He's a psychotic killer, nothing more nothing less. He just happens to have a interesting shtick (clown). There is no inner angst, he does not debate right or wrong, at best he has a goal and that goal is chaos. At worst he is just a psycho who likes to cause damage.

    I'm not real sure where the depth is there.

    Hell even Loki has a more in depth back story.

    But again where I differ from some on here is that I understand we are all talking opinions here. Not facts.

    So while I laugh when I read about the great depth of TDK, I understand that I am in the vast minority in doing so and won't begrudge you guys who think its the greatest thing ever made.


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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    I just don't see how you're not seeing that clear difference in depth of these characters
    Couldn't I say the exact same thing to you? You act like I'm the only person on here saying the Joker is the more in depth character and that TDK is the more in depth movie.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Compare them to the movies then.

    Is either the Joker, Bane or Ra's al Ghul even close in depth to Magneto? You may like the characters more, you may like the movies more but the one over riding theme to all DC villains (movie or books) is that they are bad/evil and have evil intent and are in contrast to the hero's who are without a doubt good, black & white so to speak.

    Marvel villains are shades of grey, Magneto is not evil by nature. He just is in the wrong in how to defend his own race (homsuperior) or at least he is in the wrong from our point of view.

    The Joker is the one that always kills me when DC guys talk about depth. He's a psychotic killer, nothing more nothing less. He just happens to have a interesting shtick (clown). There is no inner angst, he does not debate right or wrong, at best he has a goal and that goal is chaos. At worst he is just a psycho who likes to cause damage.

    I'm not real sure where the depth is there.

    Hell even Loki has a more in depth back story.

    But again where I differ from some on here is that I understand we are all talking opinions here. Not facts.

    So while I laugh when I read about the great depth of TDK, I understand that I am in the vast minority in doing so and won't begrudge you guys who think its the greatest thing ever made.
    Heh, greatest thing ever made...not even close, but I do find it the best flick involving a super hero ever.

    I think the Joker in TDK is more than you guys give him credit for though. His whole goal in that movie isn't to kill people but to get Batman to kill him, he doesn't want to kill people he wants to make other people fail.

    Also, if we're just dealing in the movies (which I thought we were) isn't acting a huge part of the story of depth of character here? Doesn't Ledger's Joker make you wonder what's behind the mask? Don't you wish you could hear more of his "scar stories"? I do. Is anyone really willing to stand up and say Tom Hardy's performance as Bane is superior? Now part of that isn't Hardy's fault (Bane's mask), but credit where credit is due Ledger's ticks add something to that character that make you wonder about his real motives, whether it's sucking on the scars or licking the lips, there is something disturbing about the way he plays the Joker that makes you want to learn more.
    Last edited by Trader Joe; 08-01-2012 at 01:39 AM.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Heh, greatest thing ever made...not even close, but I do find it the best flick involving a super hero ever.

    I think the Joker in TDK is more than you guys give him credit for though. His whole goal in that movie isn't to kill people but to get Batman to kill him, he doesn't want to kill people he wants to make other people fail.

    Also, if we're just dealing in the movies (which I thought we were) isn't acting a huge part of the story of depth of character here? Doesn't Ledger's Joker make you wonder what's behind the mask? Don't you wish you could hear more of his "scar stories"? I do. Is anyone really willing to stand up and say Tom Hardy's performance as Bane is superior? Now part of that isn't Hardy's fault (Bane's mask), but credit where credit is due Ledger's ticks add something to that character that make you wonder about his real motives, whether it's sucking on the scars or licking the lips, there is something disturbing about the way he plays the Joker that makes you want to learn more.
    I guess I can not separate Batman from Batman. In other words just because Christopher Nolan made it more artsy & more realistic doesn't change the fact for me that at its core it’s still Batman and the Joker is still the Joker. We're not dealing with a new story here, Bruce becomes the batman because his parents died and he wanted to right the wrongs in the world and punish the guilty. The Joker still wanted to kill. Yes he liked to manipulate others into his games but let's not act like he didn't pull the trigger himself. I've always wondered and you DC guys are going to have to help me here, if the Joker wasn't one of the lords of chaos or one of their agents.

    As to acting? Um, hello.....Ian mcKellen for God's sake.

    Sure Ledger did a rendition of the Joker that resonated with some of you, a lot of you, ok almost all of you. But McKellen is Magneto.

    You guys can argue all you want over who did the best Joker but there is nobody on the planet that will ever say that someone could do a better Magneto, ok that may be hyperbole but you get my point.

    Just my opinion here but leaving you wanting more is not necessarily a sign of depth of character. It doesn't mean that it's lack of depth either so in the end I kind of find that a neutral quality.


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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    Couldn't I say the exact same thing to you? You act like I'm the only person on here saying the Joker is the more in depth character and that TDK is the more in depth movie.

    Nobody else is agreeing with you. I'm done pointing all of it out. You refuse to see it.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    As to acting? Um, hello.....Ian mcKellen for God's sake.

    Sure Ledger did a rendition of the Joker that resonated with some of you, a lot of you, ok almost all of you. But McKellen is Magneto.

    You guys can argue all you want over who did the best Joker but there is nobody on the planet that will ever say that someone could do a better Magneto, ok that may be hyperbole but you get my point.
    I'm partial to Michael F. Assbender myself. Definitely a difference in types of stories being told (leads versus supporting), but I thought he was able to flesh out Erik better than in the previous movies. Helps that Vaughn is just straight up better than Singer at storytelling.

    Btw, I'm hoping we can come full circle and end the thread not talking about TDKR.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by AesopRockOn View Post
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    I'm partial to Michael F. Assbender myself. Definitely a difference in types of stories being told (leads versus supporting), but I thought he was able to flesh out Erik better than in the previous movies. Helps that Vaughn is just straight up better than Singer at storytelling.

    Btw, I'm hoping we can come full circle and end the thread not talking about TDKR.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    Nobody else is agreeing with you. I'm done pointing all of it out. You refuse to see it.
    I'm pretty sure Hicks agrees with me for one.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    So we're not going to try to agree on a definition of depth first? Okay.

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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Trader Joe View Post
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    I'm pretty sure Hicks agrees with me for one.
    Ok. who has more backstory? Joker or Bane?
    Last edited by Constellations; 08-01-2012 at 08:23 PM.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Constellations View Post
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    Ok. who has more backstory? Joker or Bane?
    If we're counting the comics, I'm honestly of the opinion that a case could be made for each. I mean, the Joker has had so many origin stories that no one (including probably himself) is sure if ANY are the accurate story, which IMO adds to his lore.

    On the other hand, we KNOW where Bane came from.
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    Default Re: Batman the Dark Knight Rises & other Batman topics thread

    Bane is a little different in TDKR than his comic origins. In the comics, Bane deduced who Batman was, then broke all of the villains out of Arkham in order to wear out Batman physically and psychologically, which made it easier for Bane to "break" him.

    In fact, the only thing I didn't like about this movie was tying Bane to Talia. In fact, Talia wasn't really even a necessary character for this film. And the actress playing her wasn't all that great, either.

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