3. David West
3. David West
Being unable to close out a game in which you have a comfortable lead in the 4th Q = Pulling a Frank Vogel
It appears my statement about West holding his position against a SF in the Miami series was the jump off point for the West debate. I want to be clear that that statement was made in the context of whether or not I believe anyone on the current Pacers roster could be the go to scorer that nearly everyone recognizes the team needs. My memory is that Battie gave West fits in the post. Part of that has to do with our inability to properly feed the post and some of it is that Battie is a crafty defender, but IMO, West has to shoulder some blame as well. Basically I was disappointed in his overall play that series. Especially when you consider the lack of size Miami played with following the Bosh injury. That's not to say he was awful - just that I was hoping for more from the guy that was going to teach these guys to win.
Battier gave West problems at first because it took away West's ability to go by the post defense, including stepping through the doubles, and forced him into a different set of shots (like fades off a backdown bump) and that cascades into everyone else needing to adjust too in order to accommodate the space and passing options West needed to punish Miami for putting Battier on him instead of elsewhere.
But let's be clear, West demanded that Miami respond that way because prior to that he was nearly unstoppable at getting near the rim and getting the types of shots you want him to take, even the misses. He was drawing doubles which weren't that effective and disrupting Miami's defense.
Given some adjustment time I think they started to work Battier over a little and Miami started going away from the tactic at times.
Battier on West is not a long term viable option, it just beat the hell out of the pathetic efforts they were putting out there prior to that.
Game 6 had West going 10-16, 4-8 in the 2nd half. That's not being shut down any more, that's carrying the team. Especially when Battier is going 1-7 the other way.
BTW, this is the game I heckled Spolestra about West - "You better do something about West because he's killing you", etc. I enjoyed the hell out of that, especially since West kept backing it up. If there's any justification for the premium cost of closer seats, that's it.
Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-25-2012 at 01:13 PM.
To comment on the David West scrum.
The issue I have with his perfomance in that series is in the context of the moment. After Bosh was injured and the Heat started playing small ball with undersized & under skilled post players it was key that West seize the opportunity.
"Typical David West numbers" don't cut it in that situation. It was imperative he go Reggie Miller on the bit and significantly out perform his regular season production. That didn't happen and the game 4 performance with the series hanging in the balance was in my mind inexcusable.
If you can't count on your seasoned vets (I'm looking at you too Danny Granger) to recognize the situation and find a way to step-up maybe they are not as valuable as perceived.
Last edited by vnzla81; 07-25-2012 at 01:30 PM.
I put Humrpies and Andre B over West yes, Ersan and Bass are not better than West and I think Anderson is equal to West they are both different players so they bring different things to the table.
And note that just because a players outplays another player doesn't mean that player is better than the other player, for example Danny Granger against Brewer, not only that but Anderson was missing Howard, take Roy out of the Pacers and West is not as effective.
He was in favor of giving the farm away to get Nene. He never wanted DWest, but was willing to pay a ridiculous salary to Nene to get him. Bird had better common sense and went a different direction than Nene. The Nuggets paid Nene handsomely only to get buyers remorse and unloaded Nene b4 the trade deadline.
I don't mind when you regularly post common sense/logical things but when you make crazy assumptions about our team's goals which you and I cannot know from our standpoint as simple fans, or the value of our players always below everyone else out there in the league, it really grinds my gears. The grass is always greener, or sometimes it's just that our grass isn't any good in your eyes.
Even if his opinion is frustratingly negative, I think it definitely adds to the board to have someone constantly play "the devil's advocate". Just like most of us, he's obviously a die-hard fan, or else he wouldn't post as frequently. This is a fan board full of opinions, ideas, etc. NOTHING on here should be taken seriously to the point that it angers or annoys you, EVEN IF someones opinions and idea's are completely and utterly off-base some of the time.
At the end of the day we all have different opinions, whether its about teams, players, coaches, whatever. But it's those difference in opinions, and the passion for this team that makes us all come and visit this forum every single day.
My favorite thing that doesn't come from stats is that teams respected the Pacers finally from a physical standpoint, finally. Probably doesn't show up in direct stats, but I guess you could measure the times the opposing teams star was frustrated by the tough physical persona. I attribute a lot of that to David West. Thats the Dale Davis comparison, for me, not the numbers per se or the post defense, Dale was special in that regard, imo. I do put alot of stock in DRose, Kevin Love being 'upset'. I'd attribute the hard foul DWade made on DC and the subsequent frustration manifest with Spoelstra directly to the style of play he had to endure. It's not just David West, its Vogel, its a team mindset, but with David West backing it up, it holds a little more credibility. We should ask Larry Sanders how 'efficient' he thinks David West is compared to Bargnani.
Oh I understand and agree with what you are saying except this part. I don't let myself get angry, but I don't mind letting myself get annoyed at fallacious arguments/logic. I know it is the internet, but it doesn't hurt to try to have some standard of judgment for arguments. And about 75% of these type of stubborn incoherent posts lead to namecalling and thread derailment which no one wants.
In fact I am currently contributing to the latter as we speak haha.
A bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Or throw in a first-round pick and flip it for a max-level point guard...
You can't make one statement that seems to contradict your overall view and say, "See there, I'm not at all like what you said." It doesn't work that easily man.
This thread is entertaining if nothing else. Someone said it best in another thread - there are too many people who regularly post on here that play NBA 2K12 on PS3 12 hours a day. Just because a video game has Brandon Bass being a better player than David West doesn't mean he is in real life. Just because a player's leadership ability doesn't matter on a video game doesn't mean it has no effect in real life. It absolutely does. It does on a basketball court, it does on a factory floor and it does in an office. Any organization needs strong leadership - and not just from the coaches. Having a strong leader on a sales team is every bit as important as having a strong sales manager. There are things you can't say as a manager but you CAN say them as a fellow employee.
I think having a full off season with West and Hill to some extent as the de facto leaders of the team will make a big difference. You have to figure it took at least a few months for West and Hill to get acclimated to things last year. This year they know most of the team and where the holes are. I'm excited to see how this team has grown once training camp opens.
"The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results."
- Benjamin Franklin
The problem I had with West's play in the Miami series, is I felt as a PF who primarily brings offense to the table he should absolutely exploit a matchup like that. And there is more than one way to do that.
Because Miami was particularly small up front THIS is what should have happened late in the series in games 4, 5 and 6 which didn't happen: Even if West wasn't hitting shots, the Pacers should of had a ton of second shot opportunities and easy put backs at the rim.
When you see some of the other teams in the NBA with strong front courts like LA and Memphis, against weak front courts you'll see Marc, Pau, Z-Bo, and Bynum have upwards in the high teens in rebounds every game even if a particular player didn't have the best game scoring. All of them will have repeated trips to the foul line because they would have absolutely destroyed the opposing teams front line.
That didn't happen and I put a lot of blame on West.
It really would have changed a lot in the series. The Pacers would have won the battle of the boards. LBJ would have been forced to stay on West the entire series which would have been HUGE.
In the series with LBJ defending him, Granger shot 35% from the field. Against everyone else?? 67% from the field! If West would have played better I think it also would have free'd up our number one scorer.
For the record I do recognize that numbers wise West played "ok" or "decent" or maybe even "good." But contextually I'd argue it wasn't at all. I think with a matchup like that he could of had several games were he grabbed 15+ rebounds. Most likely that would have changed the entire tone of the series.
With that said, seems like a few of us do agree with the overriding point despite a little quibble over the details. Seems the Pacers need the defense and rebounding up front would allow West to take a role that he would be highly successful.
Playing center and forward off the bench would give West probably 35 minutes a night and honestly probably more touches on offense. Realistically, though it would be tough to bring in that other talent at PF I think. If it is possible for us to afford it, I really do hope the Pacers heavily pursue Josh Smith in the offseason. I think he'd be perfect. Amazing really. That'd be an extremely athletic, tall and long team on the court.
We'll see I guess.
mattie, you have to give the heat's defense a ton of credit, they are really really good. Extremely quick. Able to help and recover as good as any team I've ever seen. So yeah West was going to struggle. Also keep in mind it was the Heat's great team defense that was able to control West pretty well. Plus the Heat watched the film of West dominating the Magic so he was their number concern. They were committed to controlling him, he was their number priority and rightly so.
Unless you have a physically dominant big, post play is the easiest offensive strategy to take away from a team. (through fronting, double-teaming, etc) And this is what the Heat did to the Pacers.
With LBJ playing center field takes away the opportunity to throw anything resembling a skip pass across the court. Add Chalmers and D-Wade whom are also steal artists, and it's difficult to throw a pass over the top of long post defenders that results in a good shot at the rim.
I always felt that the Pacers should have attempted more of a pass into the high post, and cut type of philosophy to try and catch one of the gambling Heat players off balance. Unfortunately, I dont know that we have the type of player that would have been effective enough in this position to alter the outcome much. (ala Dirk in the finals)
(Granted West couldn't afford to get in foul trouble or ejected, but still)
Wait did someone say that Ryan Anderson was better than David West? This thread is so big & convoluted that I can't keep up, but seriously did someone say that Ryan Anderson was better than David West?
Sorry, I hate to make bold statements like this (well no I really don't but I was trying to be polite) but Ryan Anderson is garbage. Now he's better than Steve Novac who is a turd but that is not saying much.