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Thread: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    See, I think the pacers did exactly that after the 200 Finals appearance.
    If they would have traded Reggie I would agree. They let Jackson go to where God wanted him to be, traded DD for JO and IIRC gave Croshere that ridiculous contract. They had no control of rick retiring and if he didn't, I don't think they let the other things occur. IMO, it is several levels below what the Colts have done - cutting one of the best that has ever played and many more important pieces. Regardless, you are correct that it was a makeover. Coincidentally it is one of the things I agreed with the TPTB on. It didn't work, but you will never see me criticize them for it. IMO, it was the closest the Pacers came to a title - before it blew up in everyone's faces. Yes, even closer than the actual finals team. I do criticize TPTB for their response to that teams failures, but that is a whole different discussion.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    If they would have traded Reggie I would agree. They let Jackson go to where God wanted him to be, traded DD for JO and IIRC gave Croshere that ridiculous contract. They had no control of rick retiring and if he didn't, I don't think they let the other things occur. IMO, it is several levels below what the Colts have done - cutting one of the best that has ever played and many more important pieces. Regardless, you are correct that it was a makeover. Coincidentally it is one of the things I agreed with the TPTB on. It didn't work, but you will never see me criticize them for it. IMO, it was the closest the Pacers came to a title - before it blew up in everyone's faces. Yes, even closer than the actual finals team. I do criticize TPTB for their response to that teams failures, but that is a whole different discussion.
    It was a hell of a lot easier to cut Peyton after his injury, the fact that they got the number one pick, and the fact that Andrew Luck was available in the draft. If you change just one of those instances, and chances are, 18 is still on the Colts. Like most things in sports, It's all a matter of circumstance.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Great now we have some stats that prove that West is a lock down defender

    I don't think anybody is saying that Battie killed West on offense, everybody knows Battie is not an offensive player so those numbers don't mean anything.
    The West numbers certainly mean something. You claimed multiple times, emphatically, that Battier "shut down" West in the series. Here are the numbers. After seeing them, are you standing by your claim?

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    ........But yes they are always trying to upgrade the starters. I mean do we really have to state that.......
    To add a bit of evidence to what Unclebuck is saying, just take a look at last year. Was the acquisition of David West not an upgrade to the starting five? You bet your bippy it was.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I never NEV ER NEVER said these showed West was a "lock down" defenser.

    You said:



    These stats seem to indicate West was not shut down, and that his "poor defense" didn't help Battier do better.

    You are really going to have to come up with something better to support your claim that West was helpless against Battier.

    I don't need to somehow show West as DPOY or MVP to refute that Battier had his number.
    I don't think Battie was the one guarding West in the first 2 or 3 games remember that Miami was adjusting to the lost of Bosh, they had a combination of Anthony, Turiaf, Battie and Lebron on him, once they figured out that Battie was doing a good job on him it was game over,(see West numbers in his last games)

    I also remember games(I remember Seth talking about this) were West would be unstopable in the first half and then in the second half he would dissapear and what was the common denominator? Battie on him.

    I am also trying to remember when Battie was put in the starting unit to guard West, 2nd or 3rd game?

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    I wish we had an owner like Mike Ilitch of the Tigers who is like 85 and all he wants to do is win. Blank checks for his gm and just wants to win a WS before he dies. Maybe with Mel it could of happen the dude actually loved basketball but with Herb I fell he just wants to be ok and stay under the tax and doesn't care about winning.

    PS. Donnie the goal shouldnt be a good team it should be a great team and almost the only way to do that is have a known name guy or "the names you hear" on your team.


    I just hate this pretty much confirms all my fears of the franchise
    Who the heck did you expect for him to get? If you answer Nash or Williamsor such, I've got news for you.........no, wait, it isn't news. People have been trying to get it through the heads of others for a couple months.......They were not coming here, no matter what was done. So, who are your "name guys" that the team so easily could have gotten?

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    It was reported that Vogel told Walsh and Pritchard to bring the same starters back so the goal was never to upgrade or trade either one of the starters.
    Actually I believe Vogel said that he really wanted to bring them all back, not that he "told them to do it", as in ordered it to happen. The way you said it makes it sound as though Vogel was giving Walsh and Pritchard orders. You and I both know that isn't going to be the case.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    He is not in an "all star level form".


    And to Mattie's and Speed's comments, I expect the Pacers to run Dwest until the ground the same way they did with Foster, the Pacers overvalue leadership over production big time.
    Yes, David is an all-star. Towards the end of the regular season and the Orlando series, David was playing at an all-star level. Is anybody going to argue that Blake Griffin, who is an all star, played better than David during that time frame?
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I don't think Battie was the one guarding West in the first 2 or 3 games remember that Miami was adjusting to the lost of Bosh, they had a combination of Anthony, Turiaf, Battie and Lebron on him, once they figured out that Battie was doing a good job on him it was game over,(see West numbers in his last games)
    Game 6? 10-16 is stopped? Or are you contending he got all his points in garbage time?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I also remember games(I remember Seth talking about this) were West would be unstopable in the first half and then in the second half he would dissapear and what was the common denominator? Battie on him.

    I am also trying to remember when Battie was put in the starting unit to guard West, 2nd or 3rd game?
    Essentially West's scoring %age stayed the same, his number of shots varied by playing time, and he was effective in 4 out of 6 games. He wasn't our #1 offensive weapon but he wasn't somehow knocked out of his normal game because Battier owned him.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    Yes, David is an all-star. Towards the end of the regular season and the Orlando series, David was playing at an all-star level. Is anybody going to argue that Blake Griffin, who is an all star, played better than David during that time frame?
    D.West is probably the 4th best PF in the East (behind Bosh, J. Smith and KG) so while he's not exactly an "all-star"; he is one of the top PF's in the East.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    David West didn't win s*** in his prime when he played with CP3 and Tyson Chandler, what makes you think this time around he is going to help the pacers win a title?

    Give me Dwill, Howard or Melo any day.
    If you think those three are coming, I don't know what to tell you. Well, I DO know what to tell you, but there may be children reading this. Also...you just mentioned Josh Smith. What the heck has that knucklehead ever done?

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    =BillS;1487711]Game 6? 10-16 is stopped? Or are you contending he got all his points in garbage time?
    Probably, that game was over in the 2nd quarter.

    Essentially West's scoring %age stayed the same, his number of shots varied by playing time, and he was effective in 4 out of 6 games. He wasn't our #1 offensive weapon but he wasn't somehow knocked out of his normal game because Battier owned him.
    You don't think that losing Bosh and Miami adjusting to his lost had anything to do with this? it's not a coincidence that when Spoeltra decided to play Battie on West must of the time his numbers when down, was "shut down" and strong word? maybe? my bad then, but the fact is the Battie(an small forward) made it really difficult for West to do anything and to me if West is not scoring he is worthless, the Pacers need him to score.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    D.West is probably the 4th best PF in the East (behind Bosh, J. Smith and KG) so while he's not exactly an "all-star"; he is one of the top PF's in the East.
    4th best? let's see, Josh Smith, Bosh, Boozer, KG, Amare, Humpries, Ryan Anderson, Ersan and probably Bass? all those guys are more efficient than West and have better numbers, Bass is the only one less efficient, West is 7th best maybe?


    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player...xp=-1&splitDD=

    Note: Brand was also more efficient and had similar numbers 11 and 7.


    edit: I even forgot to ad Andre B and his 19 and 5.5 per game.
    Last edited by vnzla81; 07-25-2012 at 11:41 AM.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Probably, that game was over in the 2nd quarter.
    The Pacers were leading 53-51 at the half.

    That game started to break open for Miami with just over a minute left in the 3rd. West had 16 pts and 4 rebounds at that point, which pretty well matched his other full games.

    So when was it that he was shut down by Battier?
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    4th best? let's see, Josh Smith, Bosh, Boozer, KG, Amare, Humpries, Ryan Anderson, Ersan and probably Bass? all those guys are more efficient than West and have better numbers, Bass is the only one less efficient, West is 7th best maybe?


    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player...xp=-1&splitDD=

    Note: Brand was also more efficient and had similar numbers 11 and 7.


    edit: I even forgot to ad Andre B and his 19 and 5.5 per game.
    I can listen to an argument about Boozer, but that's about it. You can't be serious having Ryan Anderson ahead of him
    David "And One" West

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    4th best? let's see, Josh Smith, Bosh, Boozer, KG, Amare, Humpries, Ryan Anderson, Ersan and probably Bass? all those guys are more efficient than West and have better numbers, Bass is the only one less efficient, West is 7th best maybe?


    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player...xp=-1&splitDD=

    Note: Brand was also more efficient and had similar numbers 11 and 7.


    edit: I even forgot to ad Andre B and his 19 and 5.5 per game.
    There could be an argument for Boozer and Amare. Amare hasn't been any good in the past year and a half and is about as soft as soft can get and Boozer got schooled by Tyler in the playoffs and regular season just a year ago. (Nuff said there)

    Ryan Anderson plays in the West (NO) now, and was COMPLETELY DOMINATED by West in the Playoffs. Ersan Ilyosova is NOT as good as D. West--he barely started half of the games for the MILWAUKEE BUCKS. Humphries though he is vastly underrated, is no where near the offensive player that West is. (much better rebounder and defender though) and Bass is not as good of a scorer nor rebounder as David.

    You must really not think much of West if you think some of these guys are better than West lol.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    You must really not think much of West if you think some of these guys are better than West lol.
    You have to take into account the "plays for the Pacers" devaluation factor. West playing for NOH or Washington is probably in that top 4 to top 6 category. If he plays for the Pacers, he must be a stiff in some way or another, so the fudge factor applies.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    The Pacers were leading 53-51 at the half.

    That game started to break open for Miami with just over a minute left in the 3rd. West had 16 pts and 4 rebounds at that point, which pretty well matched his other full games.

    So when was it that he was shut down by Battier?
    I never had the feeling that the Pacers were going to win that game, that whole team was playing without passion.


    West score 14 in the first half by the way. http://www.nba.com/games/20120524/MIAIND/gameinfo.html

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    There could be an argument for Boozer and Amare. Amare hasn't been any good in the past year and a half and is about as soft as soft can get and Boozer got schooled by Tyler in the playoffs and regular season just a year ago. (Nuff said there)

    Ryan Anderson plays in the West (NO) now, and was COMPLETELY DOMINATED by West in the Playoffs. Ersan Ilyosova is NOT as good as D. West--he barely started half of the games for the MILWAUKEE BUCKS. Humphries though he is vastly underrated, is no where near the offensive player that West is. (much better rebounder and defender though) and Bass is not as good of a scorer nor rebounder as David.

    You must really not think much of West if you think some of these guys are better than West lol.
    You must have missed my point, my point is that must of those guys are more efficient than West, I posted that link so you could see that, Amare with one hand is still better than West, Boozer in a team without Rose for must of the year helped his team to have the best record in the east, people hate Ryan Anderson because he is similar to Troy Murphy but the fact is that he is better than what people think, I don't like Ersan but I still mentioned him because HE IS MORE EFFICIENT that doesn't mean I'm saying he is better than West.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I never had the feeling that the Pacers were going to win that game, that whole team was playing without passion.


    West score 14 in the first half by the way. http://www.nba.com/games/20120524/MIAIND/gameinfo.html
    Extrapolating from this comment makes it very hard NOT to reach the following apologetically snide conclusions about your opinion:

    1) Since the Pacers didn't look like they would ever win the game, Spoelstra didn't bother to put his stopper on West in the first half

    and

    2) Miami taking the lead was due to West going 1-3 in the third quarter because Spoelstra decided to get serious and put Battier on him.

    OK, whatever.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    You have to take into account the "plays for the Pacers" devaluation factor. West playing for NOH or Washington is probably in that top 4 to top 6 category. If he plays for the Pacers, he must be a stiff in some way or another, so the fudge factor applies.
    West is in the bottom of power forwards in efficiency and production compared to the other guys that's a fact, it doesn't have anything to do that he play for the Pacers or LA stop it with that bs, I know you are better than that.



    http://www.nba.com/statistics/player...xp=-1&splitDD=

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    West is in the bottom of power forwards in efficiency and production compared to the other guys that's a fact, it doesn't have anything to do that he play for the Pacers or LA stop it with that bs, I know you are better than that.
    That was mostly tongue-in-cheek but man, it sure seems that way sometimes with you.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    It was a hell of a lot easier to cut Peyton after his injury, the fact that they got the number one pick, and the fact that Andrew Luck was available in the draft. If you change just one of those instances, and chances are, 18 is still on the Colts. Like most things in sports, It's all a matter of circumstance.
    Fair statement.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    I wonder if vnzla81 has been making typos and he means flopper, not stopper.

    I would have to agree now, that he is a David West flopper.

    See what I did there?

    Side note: I wonder if Battier's jaw is still sore from stopping David West.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    That was mostly tongue-in-cheek but man, it sure seems that way sometimes with you.
    You have to understand he is a very emotional guy that tends to heavily favor his opinion over acknowledging other people's arguments. Case in point, Monta Ellis. Likewise with Nene, Calderon, and Josh Smith. He doesn't really care how well they fit in the team or how much we would have to pay them for marginally better performance. They are his guys and he wants them over what we have, so he will put down our guys just because of that. I will give him credit for not liking West before he ever donned a Pacer uni if you can even give credit for that. He really wanted to get Nene and I remember him arguing we should overpay him by 2-3 million if we have to per year because of the difference he would make. Better not to go down that road again though.

    No offense, but I daily think about ignoring you vnzla because you are too stubborn and negative all of the time. The problem is you post so much, most threads are unreadable if I do that because so many people reply all of the time. Oh well.

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