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Thread: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

  1. #126
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Here is where you and I completely disagree. I can see your point otherwise, although, I think you go too far to underplay his impact on the court from strictly an ability/performance standpoint, but its at least a fair argument/discussion. I just completely disagree that the toughness/leadership/intangibles he brings to the table are easily replaced. His prescence ,as part of the team ,is huge, imo, with not many guys who could fill that void, in the league.

    I've watched both extremes with this team over the years, where you had a team of pros, pros and later a team of rudderless apathetic boneheads. Its such a big deal and impacts the w/l column more than any block shots stat from your PF position ever will.
    I agree that leadership like that is needed. I just don't think you can allow it to take the place of actual ability. In the future, I hope we can keep West, but truthfully he'd have to take a much different role.

    I don't value West's offense, because he cannot exploit matchups on offense. Battier wasn't the first time West didn't exploit a matchup that he should have been able to. Through three quarters we got destroyed against the Knicks because West couldn't score again't 'Melo and of course 'Melo scored at will. What happened in the fourth? We put Granger in at the 4 and we stomped them. We stomped them because Granger can truly play the 4 against anyone, and in that scenario he badly beat 'Melo. (I'll note that if Granger was playing at the 3 vs 'Melo I think history shows 'Melo wins that matchup every time, but playing closer against the basket Granger won the battle of the boards, scored points and did an excellent job defensively. Though 'Melo started scoring late in the 4th when it was already to late for the Knickerbockers)

    But yes, leadership and smarts are needed. But all that means is you try to acquire players of that nature. You don't overvalue them because of their leadership though. You just acquire those types of players while strictly valuing their talent.

    In an entirely hypothetical scenario that probably isn't possible, I'd suggest after this season the Pacers sign Josh Smith, a defensive PF and ask West if he'd like to comeback and play with a championship contender at a reduced rate off the bench. That'd make this team very talented I think. This of course probably wouldn't be possible. But I hope the front office has that sort of thinking.

    Edit- I'd like to see West take Antonio Davis' former role. AD in 97-98 played more minutes off the bench than DD. He was a highly valued contributor to that team. The teams TRUE 6th man. (not rose). West could come off the bench playing center and forward while providing a scoring punch. Now that would make him a truly valuable contributor that wouldn't be a liability like he was against Miami. Consider quickly folks that AD went on to be an allstar. At this stage in West's career couldn't he accept that role?
    Last edited by mattie; 07-25-2012 at 08:22 AM.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    I agree that leadership like that is needed. I just don't think you can allow it to take the place of actual ability. In the future, I hope we can keep West, but truthfully he'd have to take a much different role.

    I don't value West's offense, because he cannot exploit matchups on offense. Battier wasn't the first time West didn't exploit a matchup that he should have been able to. Through three quarters we got destroyed against the Knicks because West couldn't score again't 'Melo and of course 'Melo scored at will. What happened in the fourth? We put Granger in at the 4 and we stomped them. We stomped them because Granger can truly play the 4 against anyone, and in that scenario he badly beat 'Melo. (I'll note that if Granger was playing at the 3 vs 'Melo I think history shows 'Melo wins that matchup every time, but playing closer against the basket Granger won the battle of the boards, scored points and did an excellent job defensively. Though 'Melo started scoring late in the 4th when it was already to late for the Knickerbockers)

    But yes, leadership and smarts are needed. But all that means is you try to acquire players of that nature. You don't overvalue them because of their leadership though. You just acquire those types of players while strictly valuing their talent.

    In an entirely hypothetical scenario that probably isn't possible, I'd suggest after this season the Pacers sign Josh Smith, a defensive PF and ask West if he'd like to comeback and play with a championship contender at a reduced rate off the bench. That'd make this team very talented I think. This of course probably wouldn't be possible. But I hope the front office has that sort of thinking.

    Edit- I'd like to see West take Antonio Davis' former role. AD in 97-98 played more minutes off the bench than DD. He was a highly valued contributor to that team. The teams TRUE 6th man. (not rose). West could come off the bench playing center and forward while providing a scoring punch. Now that would make him a truly valuable contributor that wouldn't be a liability like he was against Miami. Consider quickly folks that AD went on to be an allstar. At this stage in West's career couldn't he accept that role?
    David West is a starter in this league, and was our best player in the playoffs. He practically carried us vs. Orlando. He wasn't very effective vs Miami, and I will blame this on fatigue. Due to Hansbrough and Lou's ineffectiveness, West had to play too many minutes. David has a below the rim game, which doesn't rely on speed and athleticism. I would expect him to be at an all-star level for a few more years regardless of his advancing age.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    David West is a starter in this league, and was our best player in the playoffs. He practically carried us vs. Orlando. He wasn't very effective vs Miami, and I will blame this on fatigue. Due to Hansbrough and Lou's ineffectiveness, West had to play too many minutes. David has a below the rim game, which doesn't rely on speed and athleticism. I would expect him to be at an all-star level for a few more years regardless of his advancing age.

    He is not in an "all star level form".


    And to Mattie's and Speed's comments, I expect the Pacers to run Dwest until the ground the same way they did with Foster, the Pacers overvalue leadership over production big time.

  5. #129
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacergeek View Post
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    David West is a starter in this league, and was our best player in the playoffs. He practically carried us vs. Orlando. He wasn't very effective vs Miami, and I will blame this on fatigue. Due to Hansbrough and Lou's ineffectiveness, West had to play too many minutes. David has a below the rim game, which doesn't rely on speed and athleticism. I would expect him to be at an all-star level for a few more years regardless of his advancing age.
    There are a lot of players in this league that should be starters but few that have the talent to start on a championship level team. Antonio Davis once again is a great example of that. He wasn't good enough to start over Dale Davis on a championship caliber team in 98 but he was good enough to be third on the team in minutes. Meaning he absolutely was among the five best players on that team. But he wanted to go start on another team which is why Donnie granted his wish. He also later regretted it saying he didn't know what he had in Indiana until he left.

    I actually get a little bit giddy thinking about West playing off the bend in an AD like role. Both were short but extremely stocking players allowing them the ability to defend centers. West likewise, would end up playing heavy minutes because like AD, this team has a particularly talented center that cannot play heavy minutes. (makes sense doesn't it?)
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    I'm curious to know y'all's reactions to the following future scenario - David West, on re-signing for 3 years, $20 million with the Pacers:

    "I've loved coming to Indiana to help this young team grow and mature. I'm as hungry as anyone to bring home a championship. But now that I'm on the other side of 30, I agree with management that the best thing for the team is for me to play more of a support role. Roy has grown into a top-flight center, but he needs an athletic power forward next to him for the team to be at its best. Ian is the perfect guy to take on that role, and Miles has shown us all enough that he can handle the backup center role. He still needs to open the barn door to put the ball in the hoop, but that'll be my role." (Laughter)
    "I'd run through a brick wall for that man."
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    I agree that leadership like that is needed. I just don't think you can allow it to take the place of actual ability. In the future, I hope we can keep West, but truthfully he'd have to take a much different role.

    I don't value West's offense, because he cannot exploit matchups on offense. Battier wasn't the first time West didn't exploit a matchup that he should have been able to. Through three quarters we got destroyed against the Knicks because West couldn't score again't 'Melo and of course 'Melo scored at will. What happened in the fourth? We put Granger in at the 4 and we stomped them. We stomped them because Granger can truly play the 4 against anyone, and in that scenario he badly beat 'Melo. (I'll note that if Granger was playing at the 3 vs 'Melo I think history shows 'Melo wins that matchup every time, but playing closer against the basket Granger won the battle of the boards, scored points and did an excellent job defensively. Though 'Melo started scoring late in the 4th when it was already to late for the Knickerbockers)

    But yes, leadership and smarts are needed. But all that means is you try to acquire players of that nature. You don't overvalue them because of their leadership though. You just acquire those types of players while strictly valuing their talent.

    In an entirely hypothetical scenario that probably isn't possible, I'd suggest after this season the Pacers sign Josh Smith, a defensive PF and ask West if he'd like to comeback and play with a championship contender at a reduced rate off the bench. That'd make this team very talented I think. This of course probably wouldn't be possible. But I hope the front office has that sort of thinking.

    Edit- I'd like to see West take Antonio Davis' former role. AD in 97-98 played more minutes off the bench than DD. He was a highly valued contributor to that team. The teams TRUE 6th man. (not rose). West could come off the bench playing center and forward while providing a scoring punch. Now that would make him a truly valuable contributor that wouldn't be a liability like he was against Miami. Consider quickly folks that AD went on to be an allstar. At this stage in West's career couldn't he accept that role?
    I think that West has been the perfect "stop-gap" player for the Pacers. An effective vet who can score consistently, while also showing the younger players the things that are necessary in order to improve. I actually think he will be much more effective this season due to a longer summer of rehabilitation (he only was able to rehab for like half the summer last year because he got injured so late) and a full training camp with the team.

    I thought he only had 2 sub par games against the Heat (games 4 and 5 where he totaled 18 point) but he still ended up averaging just under 15ppg for the series so he wasn't a COMPLETE non-factor. However as someone else eluded to; he had to play far too many minutes in that series. After a shortened season on a rehabbed knee, AND after being our most consistent performer against ORL, it was only a matter of time before the big man was fatigued.

    With all that said, if we re-sign him after next season I do hope it is within a backup type of role. D. West is still good enough to be a good 2nd or 3rd option on a contending team, but he's not dominant enough offensively to be taking too shots away from Paul George, and/or Roy Hibbert--whom we hope to develop into cornerstones of this franchise. With the second unit however, he would be a very good, reliable scorer, and easily the 1st option.

    To add to the idea, our team is slowly turning into a younger, long, athletic type of team (GH, PG, GG, Mahinmi, Plumlee) and I think to fully make that transition, we'll need a starting 4 that fits the bill. It'd be ideal to have a 4-man who is okay being between the 3'rd or 5th option offensively, but is committed to defense, rebounding, shot-blocking, etc. D.West is kind of the opposite of that.

    So I agree with your assessment of D. West wholeheartedly. But as you said, would he be okay with that type of role at this point in his career?

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  10. #132
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by DrFife View Post
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    I'm curious to know y'all's reactions to the following future scenario - David West, on re-signing for 3 years, $20 million with the Pacers:

    "I've loved coming to Indiana to help this young team grow and mature. I'm as hungry as anyone to bring home a championship. But now that I'm on the other side of 30, I agree with management that the best thing for the team is for me to play more of a support role. Roy has grown into a top-flight center, but he needs an athletic power forward next to him for the team to be at its best. Ian is the perfect guy to take on that role, and Miles has shown us all enough that he can handle the backup center role. He still needs to open the barn door to put the ball in the hoop, but that'll be my role." (Laughter)
    I'd freak. That'd be amazing, and would absolutely show that West is a great leader.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by pacer4ever View Post
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    Melo and Howard both took their team to a conference finals. DWill had a nice run with Utah until Boozer left you need a supporting cast.
    Pacers went to the conference finals 4 out of 6 years and the NBA finals another year from 93-94 to 99-00 but Walsh is still considered to be unable to put together a decent team. Why are these guys still considered the Ultimate Superstars when they can't do the same?

    Quote Originally Posted by Peck View Post
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    Ahhh..... Walsh Warriors. This takes me back.
    I'd have appreciated folks at least letting some of these guys play a game before consigning us to Donnie Walsh hell where we "only" get to the ECF 80% of the time (or just spend forever being one and done or missing the playoffs because, as always, all 14 other Eastern Conference teams improved themselves mightily while the Pacers "did nothing")

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Like having their center injured didn't have anything to do with that, take Roy out and the Pacers are out of the playoffs.
    So do the Pacers get credit for being a good team in the early 2000s that missed due to injuries to key players, or is that still just an "excuse" for them while it is proof of greatness for other teams?
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by DrFife View Post
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    I'm curious to know y'all's reactions to the following future scenario - David West, on re-signing for 3 years, $20 million with the Pacers:

    "I've loved coming to Indiana to help this young team grow and mature. I'm as hungry as anyone to bring home a championship. But now that I'm on the other side of 30, I agree with management that the best thing for the team is for me to play more of a support role. Roy has grown into a top-flight center, but he needs an athletic power forward next to him for the team to be at its best. Ian is the perfect guy to take on that role, and Miles has shown us all enough that he can handle the backup center role. He still needs to open the barn door to put the ball in the hoop, but that'll be my role." (Laughter)
    So is he hypothetically on this interview high? "Ian is the perfect guy to take on that role" yeah I wouldn't count on that

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    So do the Pacers get credit for being a good team in the early 2000s that missed due to injuries to key players, or is that still just an "excuse" for them while it is proof of greatness for other teams?
    And who is saying this?

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    And who is saying this?
    It just keeps coming up as a reason these teams weren't better than the Pacers, implying they'd have been in the ECF or perhaps better since the Pacers only got to the second round.

    Perhaps greatness is to strong a sarcastic word; the point is that other teams are assumed to be better than us when they fail due to injury, while the Pacers were always assumed to be no better WITH the injured player than they ended up WITHOUT him. Thus: other teams, injuries = special dispensation, Pacers, injuries = excuses.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    The Heat were fronting us, our post feeding was terrible, and Shane Battier is a big, strong, very intelligent, experienced defender who uses his leverage, grabs, holds, and flops. Is it really that surprising it was tough for West? And even still, sometimes we still found pockets where he was iso-ed on him and had his way. Sometimes Battier won, sometimes West won, in those instances. But don't underestimate Shane Battier. This wasn't like us putting Dahntay Jones on Carmelo Anthony.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    It just keeps coming up as a reason these teams weren't better than the Pacers, implying they'd have been in the ECF or perhaps better since the Pacers only got to the second round.

    Perhaps greatness is to strong a sarcastic word; the point is that other teams are assumed to be better than us when they fail due to injury, while the Pacers were always assumed to be no better WITH the injured player than they ended up WITHOUT him. Thus: other teams, injuries = special dispensation, Pacers, injuries = excuses.
    I haven't seen anybody saying that the Pacers injuries= excuses, for the Pacers luck other than Foster(of course) the Pacers were healthy and that helped them for sure, do you think the Pacers overall record would have been the same with a healthy Howard? or a healthy Bosh? I don't think so.

    If you tell me that Howard, Bosh, Rose and Melo are out of the NBA or retiring then I might agree with you but the point is that this players are coming back next year(probably healthy) making it hard for the Pacers to have a better record than those teams, this is not ignoring what the Pacers did or trashing them but as in a basketball game you have to look at your opponent and see who has the better team and at this point at least in paper the Pacers are looking to be in 5th and maybe 4th place.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    I'm suggesting it is a flawed philosophy to simply stand pat with the team's core talent when they can never be good enough to beat MIA/OKC.

    I'm suggesting if they aggressively pursued talent they COULD bring in someone else with a trade. It would take a lot of effort though. Deals don't just fall on your doorstep.

    And I am suggesting that is not their philosophy (regardless of what they say, of course they are going to say that when they have not been able to upgrade the starters - I mean are they supposed to say yes we need to upgrade the starters) If they could upgrade the starters they certainly would - but nothing they have been offered has been tempting enough.

    I believe they are pursuing talent everyday. I'm sure Pritch talks to every GM at least every few days. The effort is there, but they aren't going to make a deal just to make a deal involving their starters
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 07-25-2012 at 10:01 AM.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    The Heat were fronting us, our post feeding was terrible, and Shane Battier is a big, strong, very intelligent, experienced defender who uses his leverage, grabs, holds, and flops. Is it really that surprising it was tough for West? And even still, sometimes we still found pockets where he was iso-ed on him and had his way. Sometimes Battier won, sometimes West won, in those instances. But don't underestimate Shane Battier. This wasn't like us putting Dahntay Jones on Carmelo Anthony.

    I agree with you and disagree with the point made earlier in this thread that Battier shut down West. No he didn't.



    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    SeeThe Colts were certainly lucky. Lucky they didnt win too many games. IMO, where they beat the Pacers is in their willingness to sacrifice short term stability for long term gain. Any doubt that they would be better next year if they would have brought back Manning, Saturday, Clark, etc? No way in hell the Pacers would make a similiar decission.

    See, I think the pacers did exactly that after the 200 Finals appearance.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I agree with you and disagree with the point made earlier in this thread that Battier shut down West. No he didn't.

    Yes he did, West was not able to do s*** against him, not only that but his poor defense and poor rebounding didn't help either.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Good series of posts by mattie, and I agree with your central point that a player's intangibles shouldn't be given greater weight than his on court production (or tangibles, as it were). I can't wholeheartedly agree with your posts though, because I think you're underrating West's contributions (maybe by design, i.e. for the sake of your argument). As Ace pointed out he absolutely was our best player in the Orlando series, and a bad matchup against the Heat doesn't change that.

    Regardless, I do agree with you that a 6th man role seems to be where he fits best on the team going forward. In terms of skills anyway, because in terms of overall talent I think he's still firmly in the team's top 5. Which (again agreeing with you) makes the comparison with Antonio all the more apt.

    I don't know whether he can accept this sort of role though, and in fact I think he'll be asking for more touches this season - both because he should be fully recovered from his knee surgery, and because it's a contract year for him. Hope he surprises though and takes another one for the team.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    I haven't seen anybody saying that the Pacers injuries= excuses, for the Pacers luck other than Foster(of course) the Pacers were healthy and that helped them for sure, do you think the Pacers overall record would have been the same with a healthy Howard? or a healthy Bosh? I don't think so.

    If you tell me that Howard, Bosh, Rose and Melo are out of the NBA or retiring then I might agree with you but the point is that this players are coming back next year(probably healthy) making it hard for the Pacers to have a better record than those teams, this is not ignoring what the Pacers did or trashing them but as in a basketball game you have to look at your opponent and see who has the better team and at this point at least in paper the Pacers are looking to be in 5th and maybe 4th place.
    And I'm not talking about just this last season, which has nothing to do with Walsh anyway. If Walsh is being judged on his history with the team, and part of that history is having teams with players who were injured and could not produce (in JO's case at All Star and near MVP levels), and the lack of success of those teams is being laid squarely at Donnie's feet, then people using other teams in comparison can't say those teams get a pass because their guy was injured.

    Sure, if Roy is injured we're (literally) in a world of hurt. If DWill gets injured, so are the (now considered a contender) Nets. If LeBron is injured, can Wade and Bosh carry Miami? I don't really think so - they'll still be good, but I don't think they would be anywhere near unstoppable. But those are all REASONS for having a difficult season, while in the past when they are pointed out for the Pacers they are simply "excuses" and the FO is at fault for the season.

    Not in direct reply but in frustration at this and other threads on DW - there are times one would think that getting to 4 ECFs and a Finals appearance was worse than keeping JOB for 3-1/2 seasons.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes he did, West was not able to do s*** against him, not only that but his poor defense and poor rebounding didn't help either.
    I suppose we need a working definition of "shutting down"

    edit:

    Lets see if the stats shed any light on this discussion.

    Game #1 - 37 mins, 6 for 12, 17 points and 12 rebs

    Game #2 - 41 mins 5-13 - 16pts and 10 rebs

    Game #3 - 40 mins. 5-13, 14 points and 9 rebs

    Game #4 28 minutes 3-8, 8 points West was in serious foul trouble

    Game #5 - 31 minutes 5/13 10 pts. (this was a blowout, George was our leading scorer with 11

    Game #6 - 41 mins 10/16 24 points and 8 rebs.


    OK if those were Lebron james numbers, yeah he was to a certain degree shut down, but for West those are his typical numbers. Averaged 15 points per game. (also keep in mind the heats defense was really focused on West
    Last edited by Unclebuck; 07-25-2012 at 10:14 AM.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    I expect David West to have a really good season next year. Mainly because he's a year away from his knee surgery. and some just because it is a regular season. As much as the condensed season may have helped the Pacer younger players, IMO, it really hurt David. Here's hoping he can turn back the clock a little and become DWest again.

    Plus this is a big season for him. If he can be the guy he was at New Orleans, he's gonna make a boatload of cash. If not, he's risking falling into the pool of undersized bigs that can score but not defend. Since there are a bunch of those guys, his paycheck will be taking a big hit. This season could be a $10M/yr season for him.

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I suppose we need a working definition of "shutting down"
    Game 6: Battier 1-7 2 REB West 10-16 5 REB
    Game 5: Battier 4-7 3 REB West 5-13 4 REB
    Game 4: Battier 1-7 4 REB West 3-8 6 REB
    Game 3: Battier 0-7 3 REB West 5-13 9 REB
    Game 2: Battier 1-2 5 REB West 5-13 10 REB
    Game 1: Battier 0-3 3 REB West 6-12 12 REB

    OK, those are raw numbers, and don't take into account who is guarding who. But I think the burden of proof HAS to be on someone claiming Battier shut down West and West couldn't do anything against him defensively.
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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    There was a point in the series where Miami came with a hard double team on David West, when he got it the low post, to consider as well. If the statement was, David West didn't dominate him completely the entire time, I'd guy that one. To say him got shut down, just isn't correct from a stat point or even from the eyeball test, imo.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Game 6: Battier 1-7 2 REB West 10-16 5 REB
    Game 5: Battier 4-7 3 REB West 5-13 4 REB
    Game 4: Battier 1-7 4 REB West 3-8 6 REB
    Game 3: Battier 0-7 3 REB West 5-13 9 REB
    Game 2: Battier 1-2 5 REB West 5-13 10 REB
    Game 1: Battier 0-3 3 REB West 6-12 12 REB

    OK, those are raw numbers, and don't take into account who is guarding who. But I think the burden of proof HAS to be on someone claiming Battier shut down West and West couldn't do anything against him defensively.
    Great now we have some stats that prove that West is a lock down defender

    I don't think anybody is saying that Battie killed West on offense, everybody knows Battie is not an offensive player so those numbers don't mean anything.

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by Unclebuck View Post
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    I suppose we need a working definition of "shutting down"

    edit:

    Lets see if the stats shed any light on this discussion.

    Game #1 - 37 mins, 6 for 12, 17 points and 12 rebs

    Game #2 - 41 mins 5-13 - 16pts and 10 rebs

    Game #3 - 40 mins. 5-13, 14 points and 9 rebs

    Game #4 28 minutes 3-8, 8 points West was in serious foul trouble

    Game #5 - 31 minutes 5/13 10 pts. (this was a blowout, George was our leading scorer with 11

    Game #6 - 41 mins 10/16 24 points and 8 rebs.


    OK if those were Lebron james numbers, yeah he was to a certain degree shut down, but for West those are his typical numbers. Averaged 15 points per game. (also keep in mind the heats defense was really focused on West
    You beat me to it! But to go even further, West wasn't brought in to be a focal point of our offense, as much as he was meant to be a stabilizer/consistent performer. He had 2 sub-par games, one really good game and 3 typical solid D.West games. I don't think he was "shut down" at all

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    Default Re: Donnie Walsh: "We have to go up a level"

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Great now we have some stats that prove that West is a lock down defender

    I don't think anybody is saying that Battie killed West on offense, everybody knows Battie is not an offensive player so those numbers don't mean anything.
    I never NEV ER NEVER said these showed West was a "lock down" defenser.

    You said:

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Yes he did, West was not able to do s*** against him, not only that but his poor defense and poor rebounding didn't help either.
    These stats seem to indicate West was not shut down, and that his "poor defense" didn't help Battier do better.

    You are really going to have to come up with something better to support your claim that West was helpless against Battier.

    I don't need to somehow show West as DPOY or MVP to refute that Battier had his number.
    BillS

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