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Thread: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

  1. #1
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Can someone with more time and cap knowledge than me please put together an accurate idea of the Pacers' cap space and moves on an event-by-event basis from July 1?

    I think people are getting confused as to when signings took place and therefore when cap holds changed to actual cap usage. I also wonder exactly what the rule is for having made an agreement with a player - I thought there were issues with making an agreement and then just not signing the player until later in order to fudge the cap space.
    BillS

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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    According to the transaction timeline on hoopshype, it looks like the first transaction the Pacers did was the Mahinmi for Jones and Collison trade. This trade works under the cap and created a small trade exception ($1.2 million) for the Pacers.

    They then renounced the rights to all exceptions (MLE, BAE, and the aforementioned trade exception), along with several free agents (Barbosa, Foster, Fesenko, potentially Amundson and Price), and signed Green and Augustin to their contracts. Also, I believe the Pacers signed Orlando Johnson to a contract during this time. According to RealGM, he received a 3 or 4 year contract at slightly above the minimum for the first year. In this case, cap space or an exception needs to be used. I'm guessing the Pacers signed him prior to Hibbert and Hill.

    Then they re-signed Hibbert and Hill to their contracts using their Bird rights, since neither were renounced.

    This leaves the Pacers over the cap. The only exception they have is a $2.575 million "room" exception to sign a player(s).

    Oh, and Plumlee was signed to a standard rookie contract during the moratorium, prior to all of this. You're allowed to exceed the cap to sign first rounders.

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    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Thanks. Is there a link to the transaction timeline?

    Mainly, a lot of criticism is coming that the Pacers didn't wait for all the amnesties to happen before signing their guys, so they were over the cap and not able to make a play for Brand and Scola. I want a better understanding of how long they went before being actually over the cap (at which point they could not bid any more).
    BillS

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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Not sure a timeline matters in this disagreement. Because the fact that the Pacers couldn't bid on a guy doesn't matter. Because "They could have if they'd managed things better." You're attempting to introduce facts into a fantasy.

    This is a guess, but it is based on the statements that Roy would sign the exact contract that Portland offered. That implies the same contract and the same timeline. Pretty sure Roy and/or his agent was not interested in 'waiting' for the Pacers to get all their other stuff done before signing. Not after having to go to Portland, say nice things about the team, get ready to sign with them and even be getting on the plane. By this point, it's pretty sure that Roy's team gave the Pacers two choices, either sign with IND on the 14th/15th or sign with Portland. I don't think the option to wait was one the Pacers had.

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    Thanks. Is there a link to the transaction timeline?

    Mainly, a lot of criticism is coming that the Pacers didn't wait for all the amnesties to happen before signing their guys, so they were over the cap and not able to make a play for Brand and Scola. I want a better understanding of how long they went before being actually over the cap (at which point they could not bid any more).

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    The one shags referenced is hoopshype: http://hoopshype.com/transactions.htm

    Probably shouldn't take it as an "official" record though - I'd guess it's pieced together from team announcements and guess work.

    As to the cap amounts, after signing Plumlee our cap looked like this:

    1) As FA period starts

    Granger $13m
    West $10m
    Hibbert $6.5m (cap hold)
    Hill $3.9m (cap hold)
    Hansbrough $3m
    Jones $2.9m
    George $2.6m
    Collison $2.3m
    Pendergraph $1.5m
    Plumlee $1m (assuming 120% of rookie scale)
    Stephenson $0.9m
    Roster charge $0.5m

    TOTAL $48.1m (of the guys we want to keep; other cap holds still present)

    2) After the Mahinmi S&T, we had a net loss of one player so had to add another roster charge:

    + Mahinmi $4m
    - Collison $2.3m
    - Jones $2.9m
    + Roster charge $0.5m

    TOTAL $47.4m

    3) After renouncing the non-relevant cap holds, we now had $10.6m in cap space, which we used to sign Green, Augustin, and presumably OJ. Since our roster is now up to 12 (13 actually), we can take off the roster charges.

    + Green $3.5m
    + Augustin $3.5m
    + Orlando Johnson $0.5m
    - Roster charge $0.5m
    - Roster charge $0.5m

    TOTAL $53.9m

    So now our remaining space is $4.1m, before Hibbert and Hill are re-signed. The winning bid for Scola is $13.5 over 3 years, presumably evenly distributed ($4.5m per year), so we wouldn't have won the bid even if we use our entire remaining cap. I'll note though that we didn't have to sign OJ right away - 2nd round picks have zero cap hold until signed - which would have given us $4.6m. Still dicey though, so I guess I should stop complaining about not bidding for Scola The flat contracts we gave Mahinmi and Hill used up a bit more cap than I originally expected. however, the $4.1m amount is more than enough space to bid for Brand.

    I'd also like to thank shags for reminding me of why not every team signs their second rounders to 3 or 4 year contracts (a question that came up in another thread). 2nd round picks don't get their own exception, so signing a 2nd rounder to anything more than a minimum deal (2 years max) requires cap space or using the MLE. Which is why a guy like Asik was signed for only 2 years - Chicago used their exception on somebody else.

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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    I have never heard of a roster charge. Is this something new in the new CBA? Half mil to do a roster change seems high to me.

    Is the roster charge just for incoming players added to the roster, or is it charged if a team cut/waives a player too?

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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I have never heard of a roster charge. Is this something new in the new CBA? Half mil to do a roster change seems high to me.

    Is the roster charge just for incoming players added to the roster, or is it charged if a team cut/waives a player too?
    Roster charges are simply another type of cap hold. There is a minimum amount of players an NBA team must carry. Every additional open roster spot under the minimum has a roster charge (or hold) of the minimum rookie salary for that year. This reflects the reality that a team is going to have to fill that spot with somebody, and a rookie minimum player is the absolute cheapest player they could fill that spot with. As those open roster spots are filled with players, the roster charges go away.

    In the Pacers case, the Mahinmi sign and trade caused 1 less player on the roster, so the additional roster charge was applied as a cap hold in their place. Once the Pacers signed players to get to the minimum, there was no need for the roster charges anymore.

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    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I have never heard of a roster charge. Is this something new in the new CBA? Half mil to do a roster change seems high to me.

    Is the roster charge just for incoming players added to the roster, or is it charged if a team cut/waives a player too?
    Nah, it was there in the last CBA too. Probably doesn't come up on PD because Pacers are rarely under the cap

    http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q14

    A roster charge if the team has fewer than 12 players (players under contract, free agents included in team salary, players given offer sheets, and first round draft picks). The roster charge is equal to the rookie minimum salary for each player fewer than 12. For example, if there are 11 players included in team salary, then an amount equal to the rookie minimum salary is added to the team salary; if the roster is completely empty, then 12 times the rookie minimum salary is added to the team salary. This roster charge only applies during the offseason.
    EDIT: or what Cubs said

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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    I also wonder exactly what the rule is for having made an agreement with a player - I thought there were issues with making an agreement and then just not signing the player until later in order to fudge the cap space.
    I thought the same thing. I read somewhere once that you couldn't reach an agreement and then just wait til a lot later to sign. I figured that was why Roy and George were signed on the 3rd day. Any longer would have looked like they were "fudging". But I don't know where I read that. I kept thinking one of the cap guys on here would say something about it when people were complaining about not waiting but they never did.

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    Grumpy Old Man (PD host) able's Avatar
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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    What about Barbosa's caphold? over 10 mio
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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
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    I thought the same thing. I read somewhere once that you couldn't reach an agreement and then just wait til a lot later to sign. I figured that was why Roy and George were signed on the 3rd day. Any longer would have looked like they were "fudging". But I don't know where I read that. I kept thinking one of the cap guys on here would say something about it when people were complaining about not waiting but they never did.
    I doubt you can legally agree and sign paperwork to 'wait' on a deal, but I also doubt a gentlemen's agreement to wait could be challenged by the NBA. Technically that wouldn't be an enforceable agreement anyway but it would have some teeth to it if both parties felt it in their best interests not to break it for future relations.
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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    If your Elton Brands agent and your say Roy Hibberts agent and you want Elton to go to Dallas. Don't you tell the Pacers, NO YOU CAN'T WAIT TO SIGN Roy to try to undermine Elton going to Dallas. I mean in the end the agent couldn't say no, but it could cause some bad blood, hard feelings between an agent and a team's executives. Not saying this happened, just saying I think on the amnesty thing, the agents do have some pull,

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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Quote Originally Posted by Strummer View Post
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    I thought the same thing. I read somewhere once that you couldn't reach an agreement and then just wait til a lot later to sign. I figured that was why Roy and George were signed on the 3rd day. Any longer would have looked like they were "fudging". But I don't know where I read that. I kept thinking one of the cap guys on here would say something about it when people were complaining about not waiting but they never did.
    It's in the CBA (see the sixth bullet here http://www.cbafaq.com/salarycap.htm#Q14), but it's rarely (if ever) enforced. For example, Wojo from Yahoo reported the Raptors were going to re-sign Aaron Gray on July 7th. http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--aa...h-raptors.html

    However, he still hasn't officially signed. Why? Because the Raptors are re-signing him using the "room exception", and they are waiting until they use all of their cap space before signing him. Once they sign John Lucas, they'll sign Gray. If they signed Gray first, they wouldn't have the cap room to sign Lucas to a 2 year, $3 million deal.

    As far as the Pacers are concerned, Hibbert and Hill may have both agreed to wait until a certain date before officially signing. That way it gives the Pacers time to make moves, but they don't risk injury by waiting.

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    Default Re: Pacers FA and Cap Timeline?

    Quote Originally Posted by shags View Post
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    . . . As far as the Pacers are concerned, Hibbert and Hill may have both agreed to wait until a certain date before officially signing. That way it gives the Pacers time to make moves, but they don't risk injury by waiting.
    more likely the deal was the Pacers had to sign Roy by the same timeline as if he signed Portland original offer. IIRC, the Pacers agreed to sign Roy to an agreement exactly the same as the Portland one. That seems to indicate they had to be signed early.

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