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Thread: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

  1. #51
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Did we even get a top 20 free agent with all the cap space other than our restricted free agents? is Green top 20? I doubt it.

  2. #52
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    I'm curious, who are these next level free agents we struck out on?
    We struck out with none because we refused to get in the game and go after any.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  4. #53

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    We struck out with none because we refused to get in the game and go after any.
    Ok, but just give me a name of this hypothetical free agent we could have had, had we tried?

  5. #54

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Did we even get a top 20 free agent with all the cap space other than our restricted free agents? is Green top 20? I doubt it.
    Well, let's see. This is CBS sports list of top free agents for summer 2012.

    http://www.cbssports.com/nba/blog/ey...40-free-agents

    X for players who were un-signable, for contract reasons or just the fact that they would not come to Indy
    Y for players I think the Pacers had no interest in signing, because they're starters at a position we already have starters at
    O for players the Pacers got

    X 1. Deron Williams

    X 2. Eric Gordon

    X 3. Kevin Garnett

    X 4. Tim Duncan

    O 5. Roy Hibbert

    X 6. Steve Nash

    X 7. JaVale McGee

    Y 8. Ryan Anderson

    X 9. Nicolas Batum

    X 10. Jason Terry

    X 11. Brook Lopez

    X 12. Ray Allen

    X 13. Jeremy Lin

    Y 14. Gerald Wallace

    15. Goran Dragic

    Y 16. Ersan Ilyasova

    X 17. Jason Kidd

    18. O.J. Mayo

    19. Brandon Bass

    X 20. Mo Williams (opted in)

    So, that cuts out the impossibilities, leaving this list. Keep in mind we would have had to top all these deals to get these players.

    Dragic at $8.5 mil a year
    Bass at $7 mil a year
    Mayo $4 mil for one year, then opt out

    Of the top 20 free agents, there were three that were POSSIBLE for the Pacers to get. One signed with his same team. The other signed with his old team. The other signed a one year deal to try and max his value for next off-season.

    Had you been GM this summer, how would you have approached that top twenty list? Cause to me there's not much to work with.
    Last edited by King Tuts Tomb; 07-21-2012 at 03:39 AM.

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  7. #55

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    The only players I wanted us to sign from that list are Deron, Eric, Kevin and Tim and they are 1 to 4 for a reason. I didn't have any expectations for us being able to sign them.
    The fifth and final player I wanted us to sign (from that list) is Mayo, but it is obvious that he didn't want to play for the Pacers and come off our bench.

    While I do think we need to upgrade our starters unit, I don't see where the right opportunity has presented itself. I do see some opportunities for later, like trading for Gordon or trying to sign Millsap or Ellis in free agency next year.

    Btw George Hill belongs on that list

  8. #56
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    I'm not a huge fan of the Mahinmi trade (unnecessary talent dump), the Plumlee pick (probably a reach at 26), or the Hill contract (too much or too long, perhaps both), but I'm not totally outraged either. I've talked myself into tolerating all those decisions. I think the Green contract has high reward potential, and getting Augustin at that price, if only for a year, is pretty solid. Of course, I'll be angrier if things don't pan out, but right now I'll give them the benefit of the doubt. The fact that we didn't just sit on our hands and do nothing is almost satisfaction enough for now.

  9. #57

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Our bench is stronger and we didnt give up very much talent at all. I like the job they have done even more when I consider that they are not playing on a level playing field. Superstars are not coming to Indiana. They never have and never will unless the NBA adopts a hard salary cap like the NFL has. When all that is considered, the front office has not been good, they have been great.

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  11. #58
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by rm1369 View Post
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    Our starters did not win a quarter in the second half of the 4 losses - measured by the almighty + / - stat. They folded when Miami turned up the pressure. You don't win games when your starters suck in pressure situations.
    Well said......

  12. #59
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Had you been GM this summer, how would you have approached that top twenty list? Cause to me there's not much to work with.
    "No much to work with"? cap space? Picks? young players with some "value"? expiring contracts? is that nothing to you? stop it.

  13. #60

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    "No much to work with"? cap space? Picks? young players with some "value"? expiring contracts? is that nothing to you? stop it.
    not trying to criticize, but I think you're making a fundamental mistake about what the FO is doing. All these things you list seem to be 'asset management' type things. It appears that Donnie and Kevin were mainly concerned with making the team better. ie winning more games as opposed to collecting lots of assets for the future. JMO, but it seems easy to get lost in the effort to 'maximize' your return and collect that extra 'young player with value' instead of just trying to make your team better. The test that judges the success or failure of Donnie's and Kevin's summer will be next season, not some hypothetical list of assets they could or should obtain.

  14. #61
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    "No much to work with"? cap space? Picks? young players with some "value"? expiring contracts? is that nothing to you? stop it.
    So answer the question. What were your priorities and how would you have spent the money?
    BillS

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  16. #62
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    And also anybody remember the Troy/DC trade? They send Murphy to NJ and got DC plus James Posey 7mil a year left for two years, the Pacers paid Posey 14mil so they could get DC and now they just turned around and gave DC away to save 1.5mil? it doesn't makes sence to me.

  17. #63

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    "No much to work with"? cap space? Picks? young players with some "value"? expiring contracts? is that nothing to you? stop it.
    Your beef was that they didn't sign a top 20 free agent. I just showed you a list of the top twenty free agents and 17 were literally impossible to sign, the other three were role players at best. From that list, there's not much to work with. You disagree with that?

    Edit: "Role player at best" might be an underestimation because I like all three of those guys. But none of them would be game changers for the Pacers.
    Last edited by King Tuts Tomb; 07-21-2012 at 10:28 AM.

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  19. #64
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    I gave a thumbs down. They did improve the bench and kept the starting five, but I think the long term costs is a bit too much for a small market team.

    1a. For all the talk from the front office about having salary to go after players, they simply blew it all resigning our starters. smh
    1b. Way overpaid for Hill. Should have let the market dictate his salary. Just think we signed him too quickly.
    2. Giving up DC for nothing. I still think the Pacers should have gotten a future pick for him. We can't get big FA, so the best thing to do is build through the draft. Another pick could have really helped. A small market team shouldn't be giving up good assets for nothing. Even if he's not a starter, he still makes a top backup point in this league.
    3. Signed Augustin. While I like that the Pacers got Augustin without having to give up anything, I seriously don't see how he is an improvement over DC. He can't shoot and he's smaller than DC. He'll still have the same issues as DC in feeding the post. His defense is suspect and he makes more money than DC.
    4. Should have held off signing Hibbs and Hill till after the amnesties. Pacers just moved way too quickly, and it was a complete shame. Would have been so awesome to pick up Scola, or even Brand on the cheap.

    Positives:
    1. Signed Augustin without giving up any assets
    2. Gerald Green signing. Could be a total steal if he continues to play like he did with the Nets. Hope he stays hungry.
    3. Ian Mahinmi signing. While I think 4 years is way too much, I do like the signing overall. $4M for a bench player isn't too much at all.

    I just want to add that I hope Lance is given a fair chance like Hans has. I don't expect Lance to get 20min a game, but hopefully 15min a game and let him get into the flow with the team. I could see Lance being the primary ball handler even if Agustin is in there in order to feed the post.
    Lance + Starting SG = Awesome

    Now really free Lance!

  20. #65
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    The jury is still out. If Green, Mahinmi, and DJ produce consistently for us, then I say thumbs up. If these signings end up being lateral moves, then thumbs down
    David "And One" West

  21. #66
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    I am sick and tired of the idea that FA's won't come to Indy. We have to pursue them first and we don't. We have to be just as willing to get out the checkbook for these FA's as we are for our own players. We have to be willing to deal for RFA's just like other teams are. If FA's wouldn't come here then we wouldn't be able to maintain our own players at the rates we do.

    Pacers fans need to get over this inferiority complex that Walsh and Simon 1.0 created about FA's. They didn't pursue FA's of stature then, and they won't be doing it now. And this willingness and preference to not get aggressive is why Bird left IMO. The team has gotten about as far as it can with the handcuffs ownership puts on things. No wonder Walsh is back and now we have another round of Walsh and Simon 2.0.

    Blah....
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  23. #67
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I am sick and tired of the idea that FA's won't come to Indy. We have to pursue them first and we don't. We have to be just as willing to get out the checkbook for these FA's as we are for our own players. We have to be willing to deal for RFA's just like other teams are. If FA's wouldn't come here then we wouldn't be able to maintain our own players at the rates we do.

    Pacers fans need to get over this inferiority complex that Walsh and Simon 1.0 created about FA's. They didn't pursue FA's of stature then, and they won't be doing it now. And this willingness and preference to not get aggressive is why Bird left IMO. The team has gotten about as far as it can with the handcuffs ownership puts on things. No wonder Walsh is back and now we have another round of Walsh and Simon 2.0.

    Blah....
    It won't matter what you offer them. They will take less to play where they want to play. This is a small market team and that is just the way it is and has always been. Orlando has had two world class centers but they couldn't keep them there no matter what they paid them. James left Cleveland. This is nothing new so you might as well get used to it....

  24. #68

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    I am sick and tired of the idea that FA's won't come to Indy. We have to pursue them first and we don't. We have to be just as willing to get out the checkbook for these FA's as we are for our own players. We have to be willing to deal for RFA's just like other teams are. If FA's wouldn't come here then we wouldn't be able to maintain our own players at the rates we do.

    Pacers fans need to get over this inferiority complex that Walsh and Simon 1.0 created about FA's. They didn't pursue FA's of stature then, and they won't be doing it now. And this willingness and preference to not get aggressive is why Bird left IMO. The team has gotten about as far as it can with the handcuffs ownership puts on things. No wonder Walsh is back and now we have another round of Walsh and Simon 2.0.

    Blah....
    Please just tell me the name of the free agent you wanted us to pursue but didn't.

  25. #69
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Please just tell me the name of the free agent you wanted us to pursue but didn't.
    I have been trying to think about when was the last time a small market team added a big name free agent? Has there ever been one?

  26. #70
    Jimmy did what Jimmy did Bball's Avatar
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Please just tell me the name of the free agent you wanted us to pursue but didn't.
    Your list looks good to me... Which ones did we go hot and heavy after?

    I refuse to believe if we go all in for a FA that it wouldn't matter and we'd still have to put an X by their name. I don't buy this inferiority crap that is being sold. If you're a 2nd round playoff team then you have some clout if you're willing to be aggressive.

    I don't like the idea in general that we refuse to utilize FA except at the fringes. Especially since we also refuse to utilize rebuilding years as true rebuilding years and try and optimize draft position, instead trying to milk out every last win and squeak into the playoffs if at all possible.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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  28. #71
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    Your list looks good to me... Which ones did we go hot and heavy after?

    I refuse to believe if we go all in for a FA that it wouldn't matter and we'd still have to put an X by their name. I don't buy this inferiority crap that is being sold. If you're a 2nd round playoff team then you have some clout if you're willing to be aggressive.

    I don't like the idea in general that we refuse to utilize FA except at the fringes. Especially since we also refuse to utilize rebuilding years as true rebuilding years and try and optimize draft position, instead trying to milk out every last win and squeak into the playoffs if at all possible.
    Wow!! I repeat a former post to you. What small market team has EVER signed a big name free agent?

  29. #72

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    I have been trying to think about when was the last time a small market team added a big name free agent? Has there ever been one?
    Does Orlando count? They signed T Mac and Grant Hill.

  30. #73
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by King Tuts Tomb View Post
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    Does Orlando count? They signed T Mac and Grant Hill.
    I think it would be very close. It is a bigger market than Indy because of the surrounding area but I guess it might be considered small..... Are there any others?

    Perhaps we need to list the small market teams:

    Pacers
    Thunder
    Magic
    Grizzlies
    Wolves
    Bucks
    Jazz
    Kings
    Bobcats
    Hornets

    I do not consider Cleveland or San Antonio small markets because of the strength of their surrounding area......

  31. #74

    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    Quote Originally Posted by Bball View Post
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    The team has rehired Donnie Do Nothing Walsh and all but confirmed ownership is onboard with staying out of FA as a way to aggressively take the team to the next level. I'd say this offseason could not have thrown anymore cold water on my hopes for the team and the upcoming season. I've went from anxiously wanting to see what happens next to "meh"....

    The Pacers off season has done a great job of getting me to care more about the Colts upcoming season.

    Donnie Do Nothing Walsh back? Really? Blah!

    In local newspaper this morning, there was an article about Donnie Walsh. I looked at his picture and didn't even recognize him! No slick back hair anymore but a softer hair style. Dadgum, he had 5 kids in 6 years! I guess he believed in the old saying of keeping his wife barefoot and pregnant. I've had conversations with some of his family members in the past, but didn't realize his family is as big as it is.

    For those interested in the article, you can read it in todays Daily Journal.


    I never wanted Walsh back with the Pacers, and I'm not impressed with what he's accomplished since the 1st of the month. My hope is he makes a trade or 2 that will put the Pacers in a better position to be in the Championship game. I'm not counting on it so, as you, Bball, the excitement just isn't oozing out of me for this coming season. As a matter of fact, I will go on record predicting the Pacers WILL NOT finish with a 63% win percentage, have the 3rd best record in the EC, or be the 5th best overall team in the NBA next year. People who think this will happen had better be prepared unhappiness and discontent.

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  33. #75
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    Default Re: How do you like our new/old FO so far?

    I'm not saying we have to go get Lebron James... I'm saying we need to be able to utilize the tools available to us to improve the team and that includes all aspects of FA. It's clear ownership isn't interested in that.
    Nuntius was right. I was wrong. Frank Vogel has retained his job.

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