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Thread: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

  1. #26
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    I NEVER said a thing about JO's money, now did I? Why don't you just pull something out of the air to say? I was referring to the trade to get JO, and Walsh didn't pluck another JO in Mahinmi.
    Then why bring up JO at all? No one is saying that Mahinmi is going to be the next all-star PF/C, what does a JO move have to do with it?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    So operating in a vacuum not knowing what a b/u big might get is reason to give a 4 year guaranteed contract w/o any TO's? WOW! I could possibly understand your thinking if this was a high tier player, but lets be honest Mahinmi isn't exactly a household name or a productive starter on a team. He is what he is... b/u big who has accomplised little in the NBA. I guess I could just take the attitude that many others have, it's not my money so why care.
    The problem that I refer to with "being in a vacuum" is that so many people here seem to have an absolute idea in their heads of what a player with a certain set of statistics is worth in the league, as well as an idea of what level of salary makes it impossible for that player to be off the deep bench.

    Considering so many payrolls out there, I have absolutely NO idea where these values come from. If a guy is going to be your main rotation b/u big, is he worth $4M? If someone else was going to pay him that amount, is he worth $4M? Is the worth absolute or is it relative to the cap? If he isn't worth $4M in a cap space of $58M, is he worth it in a cap space of $62M? $65M? $70M?

    I just don't think it is as cut-and-dried as so many seem to that there's a fixed retail price where anyone who offers more is foolish.
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  2. #27

    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    You might as well save your breath. All some people on here see is that you are questioning the brass of the Pacers. That your not fully on board with all their moves. These moves should be questioned. They make no sense IN SOME CASES. Hill was way overpaid, was not going to get that anywhere other than here. The Mahinimi deal is absurd. Nobody was going to give him anywhere near that deal let alone what we gave Dallas in return. We are giving away valuable assests and as a small market, we can't afford to do that.

    You are right. I'm just wasting my time. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. Some can't see the forest for the trees due to their tunnel vision.

    I totally hope I'm wrong, but if Mahinmi doesn't pan out, I wonder how many on this board will be griping that Mahinmi's contract is keeping the Pacers from getting another player.

  3. #28
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Tyme View Post
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    You are right. I'm just wasting my time. You can lead a horse to water, but you can't force it to drink. Some can't see the forest for the trees due to their tunnel vision.

    I totally hope I'm wrong, but if Mahinmi doesn't pan out, I wonder how many on this board will be griping that Mahinmi's contract is keeping the Pacers from getting another player.
    If being over the cap by $4M is all that is keeping us from getting another player then we have lots of ways to flex it around. That is why the amount is important. This isn't a Troy Murphy or Mike Dunleavy contract albatross.
    BillS

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  4. #29

    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by Mad-Mad-Mario View Post
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    I don't get the hate for the Mahinmi deal, if the guy can just work on his fouling hes totally worth the money. Much less improve the other aspects of his game.

    Plus IIRC hes improved his fouling per 36 every single year hes been in the league.

    The word hate on this board is so over used. Hate is applied to anyone or their feelings who disagrees or has a different view than others have.

    I hate liver, lima beans, and cooked turnips, yuk. I "disagree" with my mother having made me eat them as a child.

    Just b/c I disagree with something doesn't mean I hate it. I disagree with Donnie Walsh, but I don't hate him. I don't know Walsh well enough to hate him. I just disagree with some of his decisions. I can honestly and truthfully say I don't hate anyone in this world even when there are those that have caused me great pain and much anger in my life.

    Just b/c I disagree with the dog on a habit it has that annoys me doesn't mean I hate it. If I could hate it, it would have been gone yeeeears ago. We just try to co-exist with each other until I trip over it. LOL!

    Disagreeing isn't hate or being a hater.

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  6. #30
    Get well PG! QuickRelease's Avatar
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by BRushWithDeath View Post
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    4 years is a probably a little longer than ideal, especially when you just used a first round pick on a guy who is supposed to fill the same role, but Mahinmi's deal is not even close to the biggest mistake by our front office this offseason.
    Hansbrough and Amundson are limited at best. Mahinmi is hardly an overkill pickup just because of the Plumlee pick. Oh wow, I didn't realize Amundson was a free agent. Picking up Mahinmi looks even better.

  7. #31
    Artificial Intelligence wintermute's Avatar
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
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    It's also nowhere near JO level in terms of $$$.
    I know this isn't your main point, but JO's first non-rookie deal was for 4 years/$24m. He signed that while still buried on Portland's bunch and averaging 10 minutes a game. We inherited that contract when we traded for him, and we only gave him a max contract after back-to-back 20 and 10 seasons.

    Which is not to say we should expect Mahinmi to turn into a 20 and 10 guy. However, 4 years commitment is a bit unusual for a backup big who only played 18 mpg last season. Pacers must think that he has some potential, or else that the fit with the team is incredibly good. If he's just another guy (i.e. replaceable) then we may well want to replace him pretty soon, so it won't make sense to offer a 4 year contract.

    More interestingly, between Hibbert and Mahinmi, we have the center position locked up for the next 4 years to the tune of $18m a year, which is nearly 1/3 of the salary cap. Now Hibbert alone takes a quarter of the cap, so there is that, but spending for a quality backup in addition seems to be not the most efficient use of resources. Or maybe the FO thinks Mahinmi can play PF too, thus getting more bang for the buck.

    Another oddity is that we've just handed out a bunch of contracts of different lengths - of 5, 4, 4, 3, and 1 year/s. Normally teams would arrange for all their large contracts to come off the cap at the same time, to have massive cap space for potential rebuilding. But we seem to be making an effort to stagger our contracts so that we're dealing with at most 1 or 2 important FAs each year. This approach has its good points but it does mean that we're not a team that can make major changes quickly (as if we can be anything else with Walsh in charge, eh?).

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  9. #32
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    You might as well save your breath. All some people on here see is that you are questioning the brass of the Pacers. That your not fully on board with all their moves. These moves should be questioned. They make no sense IN SOME CASES. Hill was way overpaid, was not going to get that anywhere other than here. The Mahinimi deal is absurd. Nobody was going to give him anywhere near that deal let alone what we gave Dallas in return. We are giving away valuable assests and as a small market, we can't afford to do that.
    It is funny, there is a thread on the board calling fans unbelievable for criticizing front office moves, then their are plenty of posts such as this insinuating many fans here are just sheeps of the Pacers.

  10. #33
    I have a Member xBulletproof's Avatar
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by doctor-h View Post
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    You might as well save your breath. All some people on here see is that you are questioning the brass of the Pacers. That your not fully on board with all their moves. These moves should be questioned. They make no sense IN SOME CASES. Hill was way overpaid, was not going to get that anywhere other than here. The Mahinimi deal is absurd. Nobody was going to give him anywhere near that deal let alone what we gave Dallas in return. We are giving away valuable assests and as a small market, we can't afford to do that.
    What you're neglecting here is the existence of the group of people who are never satisfied. It most certainly exists as well.

    I fail to see what 'valuable assets' we gave away. Darren Collison is a walking mismatch on defense, and simply a bad decision maker on fast breaks at least. Everyone in the NBA has seen that by now. He's not that valuable. Dahntay is a lowly paid 4th wing on a good team. He's not very valuable and easily replaced. I would bet some of these people complaining are the very same people who were bagging on Collison and Dahntay during their stay here. Yet, as soon as they were traded, they were suddenly uber valuable and we just got fleeced.

    The difference is you assume that you know what goes on behind the scenes. You assume Mahinimi and Hill wouldn't get that elsewhere. You assume the Pacers didn't try to trade Collison or Dahntay in some other deals, and just 'gave them away' without trying. If I walked around questioning everything and assuming that everyone else is a moron, then I would probably be miserable. I like to go on the assumption that these guys aren't morons most of the time. There are some exceptions obviously (Kahn!). I really hated the Plumlee pick, and overlapping him with 4 years of Mahinimi seems silly, but it's a minor thing.

    You really have to put these things in perspective. Some things are minor issues, and some are major. I have yet to see any major ones come out of this front office unless Hibbert ends up being like Greg Oden. That would be a huge problem. Even if Mahinimi becomes like Greg Oden and plays 82 games over the next 4 years, how much does that TRULY hinder the franchise? It's like a difference between a bruise and a broken arm. I can deal with bruises.

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  12. #34
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    The thing I don't quite get is people are made we gave Mahinmi 4 million per year because of his numbers.

    Look, we paid him to be a rim protector and grab rebounds while Roy is out of the game. His role is not to make back to the basket moves and have an offensive post presence.

    If he can rebound his position and contest shots at the rim for 18 minutes a night the money is more than worth it.

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  14. #35

    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    The thing I don't quite get is people are made we gave Mahinmi 4 million per year because of his numbers.

    Look, we paid him to be a rim protector and grab rebounds while Roy is out of the game. His role is not to make back to the basket moves and have an offensive post presence.

    If he can rebound his position and contest shots at the rim for 18 minutes a night the money is more than worth it.
    EXACTLY THANK YOU. Hes there so that when Roy is out the Heat don't completely beast on us. Him, Augustin and Greens job is to do one thing and thats prevent easy buckets by the Heat and to score. Preventing the Heat from going on those 12-0 runs that killed us so many times when our starters were out.

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  16. #36
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    The thing I don't quite get is people are made we gave Mahinmi 4 million per year because of his numbers.

    Look, we paid him to be a rim protector and grab rebounds while Roy is out of the game. His role is not to make back to the basket moves and have an offensive post presence.

    If he can rebound his position and contest shots at the rim for 18 minutes a night the money is more than worth it.
    Im hoping its for closer to to 25-30 minutes a night. With any luck we dont need much more than He, Hibbert, and West to fill the minutes at PF/C

  17. #37

    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    What you're neglecting here is the existence of the group of people who are never satisfied. It most certainly exists as well.

    I fail to see what 'valuable assets' we gave away. Darren Collison is a walking mismatch on defense, and simply a bad decision maker on fast breaks at least. Everyone in the NBA has seen that by now. He's not that valuable. Dahntay is a lowly paid 4th wing on a good team. He's not very valuable and easily replaced. I would bet some of these people complaining are the very same people who were bagging on Collison and Dahntay during their stay here. Yet, as soon as they were traded, they were suddenly uber valuable and we just got fleeced.

    The difference is you assume that you know what goes on behind the scenes. You assume Mahinimi and Hill wouldn't get that elsewhere. You assume the Pacers didn't try to trade Collison or Dahntay in some other deals, and just 'gave them away' without trying. If I walked around questioning everything and assuming that everyone else is a moron, then I would probably be miserable. I like to go on the assumption that these guys aren't morons most of the time. There are some exceptions obviously (Kahn!). I really hated the Plumlee pick, and overlapping him with 4 years of Mahinimi seems silly, but it's a minor thing.

    You really have to put these things in perspective. Some things are minor issues, and some are major. I have yet to see any major ones come out of this front office unless Hibbert ends up being like Greg Oden. That would be a huge problem. Even if Mahinimi becomes like Greg Oden and plays 82 games over the next 4 years, how much does that TRULY hinder the franchise? It's like a difference between a bruise and a broken arm. I can deal with bruises.
    You are making the exact same assumptions. If Collison is a starter on a team on pace to win 50 games in an 82 game season he has got to be worth something. All I know is by all accounts Dallas is thrilled to get him especially for what they gave up. Which was nothing. They weren't even going to resign him. If we only got a second round draft pick at least you got something. Maybe you get lucky with the pick. Its a longshot but who knows it has happened. Dahntay was a starter on a western conference finalist just a few short years ago. He is a very good defender, an adequate scorer and a good locker room guy. That gives him some value also. Nobody is expecting lottery picks just get something. If they had done that then the Mahinimi contract doesn't look that bad.

  18. #38

    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Im hoping its for closer to to 25-30 minutes a night. With any luck we dont need much more than He, Hibbert, and West to fill the minutes at PF/C
    This is what I expect out of Ian. At least during the playoffs. Pacers should run your basic 10 man regular season lineup, but during the playoffs, expect them to cut it to 8. 2 PG's, 3 wings and 3 bigs. Ian [and Gerald Green], [hopefully], gives them a 30 mpg guy they can count on. If that is the case, both of them could end up being bargains.

  19. #39
    Member joew8302's Avatar
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    Default Re: Green and Mahinmi deals flat, no options

    25-30 mins a night? Do you see him playing 10 minutes at PF?

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