Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."
makes more sense to keep jones rather than re-sign barbosa, the way i see it...
yes...and instead...we didnt go that direction...we signed a couple small deals instead....instead of making a big move...like i said...we are all sitting around here talking about the pizazze of hopefully some marginal improvements in the bench...
Who knows? exactly the point...no real plausible answer....to a very legitimate question...I mean if we are looking to upgrade the bench...did we talk about Tyler being a weak link more than many other backup slots last season???? But hey, lets just glance right over that one...Also, to be clear, I share a little disappointment that we apparently didn't bid on either of those guys. But who knows what the deal was with that.
capspace? yes...capspace needed to get dj and green? no...and that capspace effectively disappeared when Hibbert and Hill re-signed...again..you wanna talk about the luxury tax...but this is July...not the end of the season that the tax is based on...and its not conjecture to think that a borderline starting pg making 2 million a year on an expiring could be gotten rid of sometime between now and the deadline...but the point is you have a long time before u have to resort to give him away...but hey...if thats a reach, then i find it ironic im the one that just wants to argue...Actually under the argument I'm making, those assets were in fact not for nothing, they were for CAP SPACE, which directly resulted in us being able to get Augustin and Green, which were the replacements for DC and DJ. The net effect for us was essentially trading DJ and DC for Augustin/Green. How many times do people have to say this before you get it. If you accept that we won't go into the tax, and in fact might want a few mil as a cushion to work with this year/next year for trades or using the MLE or whatever while still avoiding the tax, then this is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to make.
You totally missed the concept...Has nothing to do with the player. If the front office is gonna give up 2nd rounders for players like Barbosa...then buy 2nd rounders come draft time....then give away players like Collison and Jones instead of getting 2nd rounders...well...the front office is inept...which is again why I started this thread saying that i dont believe theyre inept, I think they got some cash considerations and chose to keep it quiet for their own reasons...Are you referring to the 2nd round pick we got before free agency was even close to starting? I guess now the front office is supposed to be psychic too?
Oh, the irony....Like I said, interesting possibility but ok, not much else to say.
WE GET IT. YOUR OPINION. You're not moving the needle with me by just repeating this opinion over and over and over and over and over and over again.
Not every case...just these cases...again...borderline starting pg on an expiring 2 million dollar deal....rotation player defensive specialist on an expiring 3 million dollar deal...we picked up something similar and it happens quite often. Now like I said, if we are gonna pay a 2nd rounder when we buy but give away when we sell....that hardly seems like a competent front office..which again leads me to believe they got something...It's conjecture because you're assuming that in every case you can always get those picks from teams, when in fact you have no direct evidence of that. You have no proof, therefore it's conjecture. I see what you're saying, I'm not saying you aren't using any logic or haven't thought this through, I'm just saying it's still a guess on your part that we absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt could get those picks.
Well...guess whatever we paid this last draft for that second rounder doesnt count....i cant tell...does the money only count when its going out and not when its coming in? Im sure Simon would have an interesting take on that....If your whole argument is that we didn't get 2 second round draft picks, then that's not really much is it?
again...not at all...but this case is a prime case....not a stretch by any stretch of anyones imagination...hence why there were outcrys everywhere and many pundits cried what are the pacers doing...but hey...its all conjecture...i get it...I think you're missing the part where that automatically, magically means it can be done in each and every circumstance no matter what. Again, show me a specific trade that we could have made, but didn't, where we end up with the players we wanted PLUS these two super-valuable 2nd round picks you're talking about.
Feel free I can agree to disagree...no problem....I know what the facts are...Im good with that...cant help it if Im not a fan of KoolaidI'm going to stop here, because honestly you're just repeating yourself over and over. We know what you think. It's not a totally crazy opinion but I just happen to disagree with it, as apparently several others do too. You've made your case, you're not going to convince anyone you already haven't convinced at this point. Can we move on to other topics now please?
I'm honestly cool with seeing how this starting 5 does over 82 games, as well as how the face-lifted bench fits in and helps or doesn't help. We still have several assets; if TPTB ever decide this isn't the way to go, theoretically we could still turn 3-4 of these guys into a very good player or two. In theory.
I mean if they just decided to really blow it up, I could see how a package starting with Roy and Paul George could lure a big piece. In theory.
For now, I'm cool with seeing how these 5 do. Especially if Paul or Roy or Hill (or a combination) shows any improvement.
By the way, West's deal is over in a year and Danny's in two, so if we want to reload, there's a way to do it.
Accusing someone with an opposing viewpoint as being a Kool-Aid drinker is a tactic of the weak.
Last edited by rabid; 07-14-2012 at 11:14 PM. Reason: not going to sink to that level
Hicks has explained the logic of these moves. The debate is over. You may or may not be happy with the end result but it was arrived at due to a perfectly reasonable series of decisions, that is; no historically significant ineptitude, no conspiracy theory, no 'could have been handled better by PD's recent chicken little infestation'.
The fact is: we got better, did I hope for more? Always. Am I ecstatic. No. But we are a good team that got better. Im hardly going to complain about that and people need to accept that and move on.
"He's a strong physical presence out there on both ends of the court. He's a man. There's a reason he was an All-Star." -- Vogel on David West
"Nobody wants to play against Tyler Hansbrough NO BODY!" ~ Frank Vogel
"And David put his hand in the bag and took out a stone and slung it. And it struck the Philistine on the head and he fell to the ground. Amen. "
Want your own "Just Say No to Kamen" from @mkroeger pic? http://twitpic.com/a3hmca
to say this summer was now or never is wrong. especially since we would have to make a trade to bring in a superstar. the package we can offer say at the deadline when danny is an expiring will be more attractive than what we could do today. the landscape of the league could be more friendly of trading terms too. like i've been saying, there arent superstars available right now. 2 years is a whole other story.
Btw, I think you had Collison at 3.2 for this year. I think that might be transposed. I wanna say it was 2.3...though not positive. Which begs the question. Collison for 2.3 or DJ for 3.5. If its that tight...and both are for one year only. And backups...well...you see where this is going.
You're right; I did have DC backwards; it's 2.3. So instead of an approximation of a 500k window, it's an approximation of a 1.4m window. Still pretty tight, and still not enough for Brand, given that some numbers are probably a little off (thinking especially the new contracts). Jones was 2.9.
By the way, the year Paul George will need to be re-signed, he'll be restricted just like Roy and George were, and before we re-sign him, depending on what other moves are made before summer '15, we're be looking at about 18+m in capspace even including his 8.2m cap hold. (without the cap hold, about 26.5m w/o the cap hold). And that's with the cap staying at 58.044. It'll likely have gone up once or twice by then. But that's also not counting for the potential re-signings of Danny and David, or otherwise their replacements. But it's not as if we're way up high in salary by then, either. Options are available.
Have to back track a bit. If we keep DC, we don't spend 3.5m on DJ, then we're approx 4.9 under tax. So it's not as clear cut as I first thought. Personally, I like having DJ more than DC, though.
Which makes us better next year? Which makes us better the next couple. All interesting things to consider.