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Thread: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    A couple of your numbers are likely off a little bit-the starting salaries of the new signees...but youve taken the time to do what I simply refused to do....Scola or Brand couldve been added...as Ive said...when they made the dump with Dallas it set the tone for something big. Now...they did nothing big...they signed Green and Dj and left another 4 or 5 million unused...which was the whole point really...

    I said in a thread somewhere....was this really about saving money to sign Barbosa? REally? who would you rather have...and remember who our backup pf is....and David West, Luis Scola or Barbosa....I know who I would select....
    yea, I rounded some numbers up or down, but it is pretty close. I don't know that they have signed Barbosa, but Coach V said he would be back. I would rather have Scola or Brand too, but Barbosa has bird rights and Scola and Brand has to be under the cap. Hibbert and Hill aren't going to wait any more then they did, They are risking 10 of millions for every second that passes by. Accidents can happen and I'd be busting the FO's doors down to get 58 & 40 million signed. Besides it would have been disrespectful to make them wait any longer. And it wasn't the FO's fault that amnesty didn't start earlier. It is what it is. stop trying to lay blame that just isn't there!
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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Again...not true...the Pacers did pay the luxury tax. A number of years. There for a while we had one of the highest payrolls in the league. And, we were competing. And the arena was full...and we were winning....starting to see a correlation? Herb said back then he didnt like it but would do so if it meant they had a shot to win the championship. Appears that has changed. Which means we got as close as we were gonna get for a while last year.
    Disagree, and I'm a critic of Herb's. Nothing's really changed except Herb isn't willing to pay the tax on the present team yet. Thus his 3 year plan. He wants to wait and see if the fans have come back to stay. I think he should have given Bird the green light now, that's where I become the critic, because he's not going to do it in 3 years when every dollar over the tax will cost him 3. Even the Knicks are apparently blinking at that. But like has been said, it is his money.

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  4. #53
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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    makes more sense to keep jones rather than re-sign barbosa, the way i see it...

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    I'm done with this, it's pretty clear at this point you just want to argue. You've totally changed your argument, you weren't talking about guys like Brand/Scola, you were referring to BIG MOVES, like a starter etc.
    yes...and instead...we didnt go that direction...we signed a couple small deals instead....instead of making a big move...like i said...we are all sitting around here talking about the pizazze of hopefully some marginal improvements in the bench...

    Also, to be clear, I share a little disappointment that we apparently didn't bid on either of those guys. But who knows what the deal was with that.
    Who knows? exactly the point...no real plausible answer....to a very legitimate question...I mean if we are looking to upgrade the bench...did we talk about Tyler being a weak link more than many other backup slots last season???? But hey, lets just glance right over that one...



    Actually under the argument I'm making, those assets were in fact not for nothing, they were for CAP SPACE, which directly resulted in us being able to get Augustin and Green, which were the replacements for DC and DJ. The net effect for us was essentially trading DJ and DC for Augustin/Green. How many times do people have to say this before you get it. If you accept that we won't go into the tax, and in fact might want a few mil as a cushion to work with this year/next year for trades or using the MLE or whatever while still avoiding the tax, then this is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to make.
    capspace? yes...capspace needed to get dj and green? no...and that capspace effectively disappeared when Hibbert and Hill re-signed...again..you wanna talk about the luxury tax...but this is July...not the end of the season that the tax is based on...and its not conjecture to think that a borderline starting pg making 2 million a year on an expiring could be gotten rid of sometime between now and the deadline...but the point is you have a long time before u have to resort to give him away...but hey...if thats a reach, then i find it ironic im the one that just wants to argue...



    Are you referring to the 2nd round pick we got before free agency was even close to starting? I guess now the front office is supposed to be psychic too?
    You totally missed the concept...Has nothing to do with the player. If the front office is gonna give up 2nd rounders for players like Barbosa...then buy 2nd rounders come draft time....then give away players like Collison and Jones instead of getting 2nd rounders...well...the front office is inept...which is again why I started this thread saying that i dont believe theyre inept, I think they got some cash considerations and chose to keep it quiet for their own reasons...



    Like I said, interesting possibility but ok, not much else to say.



    WE GET IT. YOUR OPINION. You're not moving the needle with me by just repeating this opinion over and over and over and over and over and over again.
    Oh, the irony....



    It's conjecture because you're assuming that in every case you can always get those picks from teams, when in fact you have no direct evidence of that. You have no proof, therefore it's conjecture. I see what you're saying, I'm not saying you aren't using any logic or haven't thought this through, I'm just saying it's still a guess on your part that we absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt could get those picks.
    Not every case...just these cases...again...borderline starting pg on an expiring 2 million dollar deal....rotation player defensive specialist on an expiring 3 million dollar deal...we picked up something similar and it happens quite often. Now like I said, if we are gonna pay a 2nd rounder when we buy but give away when we sell....that hardly seems like a competent front office..which again leads me to believe they got something...

    If your whole argument is that we didn't get 2 second round draft picks, then that's not really much is it?
    Well...guess whatever we paid this last draft for that second rounder doesnt count....i cant tell...does the money only count when its going out and not when its coming in? Im sure Simon would have an interesting take on that....



    I think you're missing the part where that automatically, magically means it can be done in each and every circumstance no matter what. Again, show me a specific trade that we could have made, but didn't, where we end up with the players we wanted PLUS these two super-valuable 2nd round picks you're talking about.
    again...not at all...but this case is a prime case....not a stretch by any stretch of anyones imagination...hence why there were outcrys everywhere and many pundits cried what are the pacers doing...but hey...its all conjecture...i get it...

    -------------

    I'm going to stop here, because honestly you're just repeating yourself over and over. We know what you think. It's not a totally crazy opinion but I just happen to disagree with it, as apparently several others do too. You've made your case, you're not going to convince anyone you already haven't convinced at this point. Can we move on to other topics now please?
    Feel free I can agree to disagree...no problem....I know what the facts are...Im good with that...cant help it if Im not a fan of Koolaid

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    With the current roster plus the presumed salaries of Plumlee and Johnson (about 875k and 750k respectively), as far as I can tell our team salary sits about about 63.7 million dollars. The luxury tax line is 70.3. That means there's a gap of about 6.6 million left between us and the tax.

    Dahntay Jones was making 2.9m for us. Darren about 3.2m. That's 6.1m right there. Now the gap is down to just 500k, and that's assuming the numbers I have from ShamSports or the ones I've calculated (based on what the new deals of Roy, George, Gerald, and Ian's SHOULD be) are not at all too low. A small error and we're looking at paying the luxury tax if we keep DC and DJones and just sign Ian outright. Combine that with the fact that we likely were okay with giving DC a soft place to land (starting role, great coach/organization, Dirk to play with), as well as the reasonable assumption that if DC were worth a 1st rounder we'd have found that out by now (from a trade having been made to get it), the concept (as seen by how we got Orlando Johnson) that getting a 2nd rounder is reasonably easy to do with cash if you want one, and it becomes clearer why we did this the way that we did. Particularly since being under the tax versus over the tax is the difference between not paying the tax AND GETTING TAX MONEY FROM ALL TAX PAYING TEAMS and paying the tax WHILE GETTING LITTLE OR NONE OF THAT SAME MONEY FROM OTHER TAX PAYERS, which is important to Simon (especially lately; he's taking bad losses this past several years), and it all becomes pretty obvious why this happened.

    Honestly, I'm okay with it. Was it the ONLY WAY to go? No. Is it some God awful, no sense, stupid, terrible decision? HARDLY.

    This may also at least partially help to explain why we didn't try to wait and bid on Brand, by the way. They probably preferred investing on a young athletic center who should at least be an okay backup if he doesn't show any growth rather than a near-retired Elton Brand to backup David West for 15 minutes a game.

    I can understand having a different opinion on how to make these moves, but there's just no denying the way they did choose to go was reasonable and understandable.
    quoting this so it doesn't get lost on the previous page. very good post Hicks, confirms what i thought.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    Disagree, and I'm a critic of Herb's. Nothing's really changed except Herb isn't willing to pay the tax on the present team yet. Thus his 3 year plan. He wants to wait and see if the fans have come back to stay. I think he should have given Bird the green light now, that's where I become the critic, because he's not going to do it in 3 years when every dollar over the tax will cost him 3. Even the Knicks are apparently blinking at that. But like has been said, it is his money.
    Now was the time Will...it was kinda like now or never...because after Hibbert and HIll signed we forever lost the flexibility and capspace...therefore the options will be much more limited...

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    I'm honestly cool with seeing how this starting 5 does over 82 games, as well as how the face-lifted bench fits in and helps or doesn't help. We still have several assets; if TPTB ever decide this isn't the way to go, theoretically we could still turn 3-4 of these guys into a very good player or two. In theory.

    I mean if they just decided to really blow it up, I could see how a package starting with Roy and Paul George could lure a big piece. In theory.

    For now, I'm cool with seeing how these 5 do. Especially if Paul or Roy or Hill (or a combination) shows any improvement.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Now was the time Will...it was kinda like now or never...because after Hibbert and HIll signed we forever lost the flexibility and capspace...therefore the options will be much more limited...
    bull ****. the los angeles lakers prove you are wrong. Kobe will be getting paid close to what Hibbert and Hill make combined.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    By the way, West's deal is over in a year and Danny's in two, so if we want to reload, there's a way to do it.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    cant help it if Im not a fan of Koolaid
    I have bent over backwards to be civil in this conversation with you, even though we disagree, I would hope you'd extend the same courtesy.

    Accusing someone with an opposing viewpoint as being a Kool-Aid drinker is a tactic of the weak.
    Last edited by rabid; 07-14-2012 at 11:14 PM. Reason: not going to sink to that level

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    bull ****. the los angeles lakers prove you are wrong. Kobe will be getting paid close to what Hibbert and Hill make combined.

    Lol....do what?

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Hicks has explained the logic of these moves. The debate is over. You may or may not be happy with the end result but it was arrived at due to a perfectly reasonable series of decisions, that is; no historically significant ineptitude, no conspiracy theory, no 'could have been handled better by PD's recent chicken little infestation'.

    The fact is: we got better, did I hope for more? Always. Am I ecstatic. No. But we are a good team that got better. Im hardly going to complain about that and people need to accept that and move on.
    "He's a strong physical presence out there on both ends of the court. He's a man. There's a reason he was an All-Star." -- Vogel on David West

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Lol....do what?
    have flexibility to make moves even though they are over the cap.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    bull ****. the los angeles lakers prove you are wrong. Kobe will be getting paid close to what Hibbert and Hill make combined.
    Try more than Roy and George combined.
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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    I have bent over backwards to be civil in this conversation with you, even though we disagree, I would hope you'd extend the same courtesy.

    Accusing someone with an opposing viewpoint as being a Kool-Aid drinker is a tactic of the weak.

    Also makes you look a lot like a troll. Just sayin.
    Hey now...I thought you said you were done? Sadly, unless Im misssing something...the closest I see to anyone being called a name is your troll reference. But Im sure You or someone else will certainly point out to me if i somehow missed it.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    By the way, West's deal is over in a year and Danny's in two, so if we want to reload, there's a way to do it.
    and it would make more sense to do it then as our young guys will be entering their primes while Danny and West are at the end of theirs. we get to see what are young guys actually are made of and we get to see what this starting 5 is able to do.

    to say this summer was now or never is wrong. especially since we would have to make a trade to bring in a superstar. the package we can offer say at the deadline when danny is an expiring will be more attractive than what we could do today. the landscape of the league could be more friendly of trading terms too. like i've been saying, there arent superstars available right now. 2 years is a whole other story.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Try more than Roy and George combined.
    i didnt say less :P just close.

    ok i thought this season was less, but turns out its more too.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Hey now...I thought you said you were done? Sadly, unless Im misssing something...the closest I see to anyone being called a name is your troll reference. But Im sure You or someone else will certainly point out to me if i somehow missed it.
    Apologies, that was going to far and I edited my post. Maybe don't call me a Kool-Aid drinker next time, k?

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    By the way, West's deal is over in a year and Danny's in two, so if we want to reload, there's a way to do it.
    Well something has to be done with Paul George. And even more of a concern is West being signed only thru the end of the year and his backup is Tyler. Yikes. Thats why Scola sure woulda come in handy. At a bargain basement price of about 4 million.

    Btw, I think you had Collison at 3.2 for this year. I think that might be transposed. I wanna say it was 2.3...though not positive. Which begs the question. Collison for 2.3 or DJ for 3.5. If its that tight...and both are for one year only. And backups...well...you see where this is going.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I'm honestly cool with seeing how this starting 5 does over 82 games, as well as how the face-lifted bench fits in and helps or doesn't help. We still have several assets; if TPTB ever decide this isn't the way to go, theoretically we could still turn 3-4 of these guys into a very good player or two. In theory.

    I mean if they just decided to really blow it up, I could see how a package starting with Roy and Paul George could lure a big piece. In theory.

    For now, I'm cool with seeing how these 5 do. Especially if Paul or Roy or Hill (or a combination) shows any improvement.
    Got to think too that Danny will get off to a better start than he did last year, plus West is a year removed from surgery, thus they could all improve.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    You're right; I did have DC backwards; it's 2.3. So instead of an approximation of a 500k window, it's an approximation of a 1.4m window. Still pretty tight, and still not enough for Brand, given that some numbers are probably a little off (thinking especially the new contracts). Jones was 2.9.

    By the way, the year Paul George will need to be re-signed, he'll be restricted just like Roy and George were, and before we re-sign him, depending on what other moves are made before summer '15, we're be looking at about 18+m in capspace even including his 8.2m cap hold. (without the cap hold, about 26.5m w/o the cap hold). And that's with the cap staying at 58.044. It'll likely have gone up once or twice by then. But that's also not counting for the potential re-signings of Danny and David, or otherwise their replacements. But it's not as if we're way up high in salary by then, either. Options are available.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Apologies, that was going to far and I edited my post. Maybe don't call me a Kool-Aid drinker next time, k?
    No problem at all...and I wasnt saying you are a Kool-Aid drinker. Only that Im not. Its really quite simple how I feel. Last year was a true joy after all the pain and suffering weve been through. And weve got a wonderful nucleus....and were in a specatacular position to really dramatically improve the team. And instead we are sitting around here discussing marginal bench improvments as if we made dramatic improvements when in reality im of the opinion that if anything, we are further away from winning a title than we were last year after this offseason. And its becoming apparent why. And i really really dont like what i believe that reason is. As ive said....I think its pretty sad and Im disappointed. After 40 plus years I think im entitled to have those feelings. Dont expect everyone to agree. Thats ok. But I also see a common denominator. And his name is Walsh. Who I didnt care for at all his last few years here because I believe he made some monumental blunders that this franchise is still trying to dig out from and now early on Im really not a fan of his most recent moves. I feel theyre much more flash and not nearly enough substance.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Accusing someone with an opposing viewpoint as being a Kool-Aid drinker is a tactic of the weak.
    Totally Agree. Rates right up there with putting words in peoples mouths...

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Have to back track a bit. If we keep DC, we don't spend 3.5m on DJ, then we're approx 4.9 under tax. So it's not as clear cut as I first thought. Personally, I like having DJ more than DC, though.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    Have to back track a bit. If we keep DC, we don't spend 3.5m on DJ, then we're approx 4.9 under tax. So it's not as clear cut as I first thought. Personally, I like having DJ more than DC, though.
    Do you like DJ being the backup this year more than DC and Brand as the pf backup? Or even more tantalizing...Do you like DJ better than having DC as the backup pg plus Luis Scola for the next 3 years at about 4 million per?

    Which makes us better next year? Which makes us better the next couple. All interesting things to consider.

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