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Thread: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen View Post
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    Wait, have you been here the past 2 weeks?
    You are right, there has been lots of silliness but this one is the most far out of all........ or at least I hope it is......

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by OlBlu View Post
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    You are right, there has been lots of silliness but this one is the most far out of all........ or at least I hope it is......
    At least some people are getting educated to the fact that signing Hibbert and Hill ate up the majority of the cap space the team USED TO HAVE!

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by troyc11a View Post
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    At least some people are getting educated to the fact that signing Hibbert and Hill ate up the majority of the cap space the team USED TO HAVE!
    How could people not know that? There is no doubt where that money went, as it should have in my opinion. The argument that we did not get something in the trade is false also. One may not like the result, but i feel the team is better so I'm happy. I think its time to let sleeping dogs lie and move on.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by SycamoreKen View Post
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    How could people not know that? There is no doubt where that money went, as it should have in my opinion. The argument that we did not get something in the trade is false also. One may not like the result, but i feel the team is better so I'm happy. I think its time to let sleeping dogs lie and move on.
    For the life of me I cannot understand how people did not understand the moves. I can get how some might not understand that there is no longer money under the cap due to signing Hibbert and Hill.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Will Galen View Post
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    We HAD the cap space. Are we under the cap now? No!

    The front office knew we were going to need MORE cap space, thus the REASON they did things the way they did.
    Had the capspace? yes..which is all that mattered..because as we know, re-signing our own free agents wouldnt require capspace.

    Look...when the deal went down I had three basic reactions. 2 very positive and 1 concern.

    1st...Mahinmi...thought he was a very good addition to the bench. And i said so immediately in the thread when most were disenchanted with him.

    2nd....It was a sign and trade instead of an outright signing...when we didnt need to do a sign and trade as we had the capspace to sign him outright as well as quite a bit more...so we were creating additional capspace...which got me excited, because that would likely mean we were setting the table for something bigger...because we had created additional capspace....

    3rd...some concern....because yes we created capspace...but we did so in a fashion that was questionable at best....we gave away 2 players on expiring deals that are definitely rotation players and potential starters....and got nothing in return...that doesnt make a lot of sense....it really doesnt...you can always get something....where else was dallas gonna get a starting caliber pg on a one year deal for 2 million?...and d jones not much different....and yet we just gave them away....well..the rationale would have to be...the end result would justify it...the use of that capspace...would make us forget...

    problem was...we never used that space...at all...we never needed it....didnt need it to sign green or dj....already had enough to do that....

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Counting cap holds and Plumlee's pick our payroll was at ~47.3 million. The cap's 58 million. So we had roughly a bit shy of 11 million to spend. Let's pretend we keep everybody (screw roster spots), no trades, and just sign everyone outright. Add Green's first year salary of 3.1, Mahinmi's 3.7, Augustin's 3.5 and Johnson's assumed ~750k, we're over the cap by a few hundred k. So that doesn't work.

    And then you add the new money from the Hill and Hibbert extensions and we're dangerously close to being in the luxury tax.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    Counting cap holds and Plumlee's pick our payroll was at ~47.3 million. The cap's 58 million. So we had roughly a bit shy of 11 million to spend. Let's pretend we keep everybody (screw roster spots), no trades, and just sign everyone outright. Add Green's first year salary of 3.1, Mahinmi's 3.7, Augustin's 3.5 and Johnson's assumed ~750k, we're over the cap by a few hundred k. So that doesn't work.

    And then you add the new money from the Hill and Hibbert extensions and we're dangerously close to being in the luxury tax.
    DING DING DING....

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    The dude just keeps ignoring the massive raises Hill and Hibbert got.
    sigh...the massive raises had no bearing on the capspace...none...not until they signed....again...you dont have to have capspace to re-sign your own.....now if they wouldve signed Hibbert and HIll before they signed the others...then absolutely...hence why they delayed those two signings....

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Herb Simon DOES NOT WANT TO PAY THE LUXURY TAX.

    Thus, Dahntay and Darren had to be moved for us to get DJ and Green.
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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    sigh...the massive raises had no bearing on the capspace...none...not until they signed....again...you dont have to have capspace to re-sign your own.....now if they wouldve signed Hibbert and HIll before they signed the others...then absolutely...hence why they delayed those two signings....
    yeah but you can't act like you aren't going to have two big contracts to add. Sure they aren't officially on the cap, but they may as well be.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    yeah but you can't act like you aren't going to have two big contracts to add. Sure they aren't officially on the cap, but they may as well be.
    Not true at all.

    They both are assigned 'cap holds'...until we re-sign them or renounce them...if i recall Hibberts was a little over 6 million and Hills was a little under 4. The two combined were right at 10 million. So you dont pretend. They have numbers...and in this case, low numbers right? Since they signed for 20plus....see how that works then? Thats the window you have until you actually sign them....thats why you wait to sign them until youre done with everything else.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandman21 View Post
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    Herb Simon DOES NOT WANT TO PAY THE LUXURY TAX.

    Thus, Dahntay and Darren had to be moved for us to get DJ and Green.
    Thats a really bad reason for giving players away. Thats bad business. Especially since the Luxury Tax is done on the year end salary and not July of the offseason. Theres no way those players couldnt have garnered at least a 2nd rounder each....none...maybe not now...though Collison almost assuredly could have now....D Jones? probably so by the trade deadline. We gave a 2nd for Barbosa. Thats why I tend to believe we got something. Just not a pick...a bit of cash. And under the current situation with Simon probably sensitive to the fact that rumors have it that Bird left because he wasnt willing to spend money....well they chose to keep that cash quiet. Which is certainly their prerogative.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Thats a really bad reason for giving players away. Thats bad business. Especially since the Luxury Tax is done on the year end salary and not July of the offseason. Theres no way those players couldnt have garnered at least a 2nd rounder each....none...maybe not now...though Collison almost assuredly could have now....D Jones? probably so by the trade deadline. We gave a 2nd for Barbosa. Thats why I tend to believe we got something. Just not a pick...a bit of cash. And under the current situation with Simon probably sensitive to the fact that rumors have it that Bird left because he wasnt willing to spend money....well they chose to keep that cash quiet. Which is certainly their prerogative.
    really easy to say when its not your money. Even the knicks are looking to avoid the luxury tax as much as possible.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Thats a really bad reason for giving players away. Thats bad business. Especially since the Luxury Tax is done on the year end salary and not July of the offseason. Theres no way those players couldnt have garnered at least a 2nd rounder each....none...maybe not now...though Collison almost assuredly could have now....D Jones? probably so by the trade deadline. We gave a 2nd for Barbosa. Thats why I tend to believe we got something. Just not a pick...a bit of cash. And under the current situation with Simon probably sensitive to the fact that rumors have it that Bird left because he wasnt willing to spend money....well they chose to keep that cash quiet. Which is certainly their prerogative.
    We just bought a low second round pick for cash. Why should anyone care if we could have possibly gotten a second round pick by assuming risk? The cash savings on theses guys is enough to purchase said pick.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    really easy to say when its not your money. Even the knicks are looking to avoid the luxury tax as much as possible.
    Lol...excuse me? First of all....They werent going to be in the Luxury Tax. Second of all, if they dont start doing a better job of managing their assets, theyre gonna continue to struggle financially. Lastly, Ive attended somewhere between 500 and 1000 Pacer games in my life and probably one of only a few that was in Florida for playoff games in both Orlando and Miami. So...maybe I do feel like Im entitled to a bit of an opinion on an internet message board. As for it being easy to say...Well apparently just as easy as it is for Simon to say Im not willing to do what is necessary to compete for a title.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by spazzxb View Post
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    We just bought a low second round pick for cash. Why should anyone care if we could have possibly gotten a second round pick by assuming risk? The cash savings on theses guys is enough to purchase said pick.
    Thanks for making my point. We just bought a pick. And we just gave away two players that we realistically shouldve gotten a pick each back for....see how that works? If we manage the assets better we come up with 2 more picks and next time we dont have to buy a pick.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    its not the only way to compete for a title. its not how they competed for a title with Reggie and its not how we are going to compete for a title now. you may not like it, but you damn sure better be used to it after attending 1000 pacers games.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Thats a really bad reason for giving players away. Thats bad business.
    Especially since the Luxury Tax is done on the year end salary and not July of the offseason. Theres no way those players couldnt have garnered at least a 2nd rounder each....none...maybe not now...though Collison almost assuredly could have now....D Jones? probably so by the trade deadline.
    Your opinion, and an interesting one, but nothing more, unless you have evidence of specific trades we could have made with those guys and didn't. After following this team for 25+years it's my opinion, and that of many others I think, that Simon is not the type of guy who would take the risk of getting stuck over the luxury tax this year, on the chance that we couldn't unload those guys before the trade deadline.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    We gave a 2nd for Barbosa. Thats why I tend to believe we got something. Just not a pick...a bit of cash. And under the current situation with Simon probably sensitive to the fact that rumors have it that Bird left because he wasnt willing to spend money....well they chose to keep that cash quiet. Which is certainly their prerogative.
    Again, your opinion, and a somewhat interesting one, but it's purely conjecture on your part and is has no effect on the team's cap situation so who cares really?

    I think the larger point is that many of us are pointing out Simon's aversion to the luxury tax as the reason we didn't do more with our cap space this year. Which is relevant to the argument you keep making over and over in multiple threads in the past few days.

    If you don't get it already, we aren't a huge-market team like the Knicks that can afford to absorb major luxury tax losses. The Pacers also have that damn ABA TV contract money they have to pay out each year, and we were 29th in attendance last year, etc. I am NOT trying to make excuses, as I agree sometimes it's frustrating not to be able to go out and sign big-name free agents (I was personally hoping for Nash this year) but this is the Pacers' reality and has been for some time.

    Which is why so many of us were hoping to get more parity-related changes out of the CBA negotiations during the lockout...
    Last edited by rabid; 07-14-2012 at 10:10 PM.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    its not the only way to compete for a title. its not how they competed for a title with Reggie and its not how we are going to compete for a title now. you may not like it, but you damn sure better be used to it after attending 1000 pacers games.
    Again...not true...the Pacers did pay the luxury tax. A number of years. There for a while we had one of the highest payrolls in the league. And, we were competing. And the arena was full...and we were winning....starting to see a correlation? Herb said back then he didnt like it but would do so if it meant they had a shot to win the championship. Appears that has changed. Which means we got as close as we were gonna get for a while last year.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Your opinion, and an interesting one, but nothing more, unless you have evidence of specific trades we could have made with those guys and didn't. After following this team for 25+years it's my opinion, and that of many others I think, that Simon is not the type of guy who would take the risk of getting stuck over the luxury tax this year, on the chance that we couldn't unload those guys before the trade deadline.



    Again, your opinion, and a somewhat interesting one, but it's purely conjecture on your part and is has no effect on the team's cap situation so who cares really?

    I think the larger point is that many of us are pointing out Simon's aversion to the luxury tax as the reason we didn't do more with our cap space this year. Which is relevant to the argument you keep making over and over in multiple threads in the past few days.

    If you don't get it already, we aren't a huge-market team like the Knicks that can afford to absorb major luxury tax losses. The Pacers also have that damn ABA TV contract money they have to pay out each year, and we were 29th in attendance last year, etc. I am NOT trying to make excuses, as I agree sometimes it's frustrating not to be able to go out and sign big-name free agents (I was personally hoping for Nash this year) but this is the Pacers' reality and has been for some time.

    Which is why so many of us were hoping to get more out of the CBA negotiations out of the lockout...
    Except it wouldnt have necessarily required going into luxury tax world. Getting Brand or Scola wouldnt have mean the luxury tax. And lets be very, very clear. If youre going to take the attitude youre suggesting Simon is now taking, then you damn sure better be maximizing every single asset you have...and giving assets away for no return is not doing that. When you then are also buying 2nd rounders that would appear to be highly inefficient and borderline inept...which is again why i suggested they probably got something in the form of cash in return. Because surely if theyre gonna take this tight approach they certainly wouldnt give away assets when its quite clear someting could have been gotten in return. And thats not conjecture...It happens all the time. As stated, we gave up a 2nd for Barbosa...then went out and bought a 2nd at the draft...then failed to get one when we should have in this latest travesty of a deal. You think thats conjecture? How so? Please...tell me. Did we or did we not give a 2nd rounder in exchange for Barbosa???? Did we or did we not get zero 2nd rounders for Collison and D. Jones? Did we or did we not pay for a 2nd rounder in the draft? Exactly.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Again...not true...the Pacers did pay the luxury tax. A number of years. There for a while we had one of the highest payrolls in the league. And, we were competing. And the arena was full...and we were winning....starting to see a correlation? Herb said back then he didnt like it but would do so if it meant they had a shot to win the championship. Appears that has changed. Which means we got as close as we were gonna get for a while last year.
    Hey man, hopefully this will help you out!

    Renounce Barbosa, Foster, Amundson, Price, Fez

    Granger 13m
    West 10m
    Hibbert 6.5m
    Hill 3.9m
    Hansbrough 3m
    George 2.5m
    Pendergraph 1.5m
    Plumlee 1m
    Stephenson 1m
    Johnson 900K
    Jones 2.9m
    Collison 2.3m

    48.5m + incoming
    Augustin 3.5m
    Green 3.6m
    = 55.6m
    Trade - outgoing
    Collison 2.3
    Jones 2.9
    = 50.4m
    + incoming
    Mahimni 3.8m
    = 54.2m
    Cap is 58m
    = 3.8m in cap space is left if Hill and Hibbert isn't signed yet.

    With Hibbert and Hill signed

    Granger 13m
    West 10m
    Hibbert 14.5m
    Hill 8m
    Hansbrough 3m
    George 2.5m
    Pendergraph 1.5m
    Plumlee 1m
    Stephenson 1m
    Johnson 900k
    Mahinmi 4m
    Green 3.6m
    Augustin 3.5

    66.5 mil in total salary + signing Barbosa to whatever.

    luxury tax is 70.3m
    - 66.5m
    = 3.8m from luxury tax

    Now there was 3.8m under cap before Hibbert and Hill signed
    But there is 3.8m from luxury tax after Hibbert and Hill was signed.

    Again, if you add Barbosa to this, we'll call it 3m for the heck of it. The Pacers are approx. 500k under Luxury Tax. And would have been 500k under the cap.

    So as KP said on 1070 the fan after the press conference "Amnesty wasn't a reality."

    Unless Hansbrough was traded! Of course the FO isn't going to tell you this in the media now are they.

    Also, I do believe that Barbosa might have already been signed cause his cap hold is 11.4m and I have never heard of the Pacers renouncing it. So, in order for the cap hold to disappear, he must have already been signed. Just a hunch!
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 07-14-2012 at 10:26 PM.
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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    With the current roster plus the presumed salaries of Plumlee and Johnson (about 875k and 750k respectively), as far as I can tell our team salary sits about about 63.7 million dollars. The luxury tax line is 70.3. That means there's a gap of about 6.6 million left between us and the tax.

    Dahntay Jones was making 2.9m for us. Darren about 3.2m. That's 6.1m right there. Now the gap is down to just 500k, and that's assuming the numbers I have from ShamSports or the ones I've calculated (based on what the new deals of Roy, George, Gerald, and Ian's SHOULD be) are not at all too low. A small error and we're looking at paying the luxury tax if we keep DC and DJones and just sign Ian outright. Combine that with the fact that we likely were okay with giving DC a soft place to land (starting role, great coach/organization, Dirk to play with), as well as the reasonable assumption that if DC were worth a 1st rounder we'd have found that out by now (from a trade having been made to get it), the concept (as seen by how we got Orlando Johnson) that getting a 2nd rounder is reasonably easy to do with cash if you want one, and it becomes clearer why we did this the way that we did. Particularly since being under the tax versus over the tax is the difference between not paying the tax AND GETTING TAX MONEY FROM ALL TAX PAYING TEAMS and paying the tax WHILE GETTING LITTLE OR NONE OF THAT SAME MONEY FROM OTHER TAX PAYERS, which is important to Simon (especially lately; he's taking bad losses this past several years), and it all becomes pretty obvious why this happened.

    Honestly, I'm okay with it. Was it the ONLY WAY to go? No. Is it some God awful, no sense, stupid, terrible decision? HARDLY.

    This may also at least partially help to explain why we didn't try to wait and bid on Brand, by the way. They probably preferred investing on a young athletic center who should at least be an okay backup if he doesn't show any growth rather than a near-retired Elton Brand to backup David West for 15 minutes a game.

    I can understand having a different opinion on how to make these moves, but there's just no denying the way they did choose to go was reasonable and understandable.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Actually, now that I've done that math, I don't see them bringing Barbosa back, even if he was willing to sign for peanuts and be the 3rd string SG; unless my numbers are too high, there's just not enough room to avoid the tax.

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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    Hey man, hopefully this will help you out!

    Renounce Barbosa, Foster, Amundson, Price, Fez

    Granger 13m
    West 10m
    Hibbert 6.5m
    Hill 3.9m
    Hansbrough 3m
    George 2.5m
    Pendergraph 1.5m
    Plumlee 1m
    Stephenson 1m
    Johnson 900K
    Jones 2.9m
    Collison 2.3m

    48.5m + incoming
    Augustin 3.5m
    Green 3.6m
    = 55.6m
    Trade - outgoing
    Collison 2.3
    Jones 2.9
    = 50.4m
    + incoming
    Mahimni 3.8m
    = 54.2m
    Cap is 58m
    = 3.8m in cap space is left if Hill and Hibbert isn't signed yet.

    With Hibbert and Hill signed

    Granger 13m
    West 10m
    Hibbert 14.5m
    Hill 8m
    Hansbrough 3m
    George 2.5m
    Pendergraph 1.5m
    Plumlee 1m
    Stephenson 1m
    Johnson 900k
    Mahinmi 4m
    Green 3.5m
    Augustin 3.5

    66.4 mil in total salary + signing Barbosa to whatever.

    luxury tax is 70.3m
    - 66.4m
    = 3.9m from luxury tax

    Now there was 3.8m under cap before Hibbert and Hill signed
    But there is 3.9m from luxury tax after Hibbert and Hill was signed.

    Again, if you add Barbosa to this, we'll call it 3m for the heck of it. The Pacers are approx. 600k under Luxury Tax. And would have been 500k under the cap.

    So as KP said on 1070 the fan after the press conference "Amnesty wasn't a reality."

    Unless Hansbrough was traded! Of course the FO isn't going to tell you this in the media now are they.

    Also, I do believe that Barbosa might have already been signed cause his cap hold is 11.4m and I have never heard of the Pacers renouncing it. So, in order for the cap hold to disappear, he must have already been signed. Just a hunch!
    A couple of your numbers are likely off a little bit-the starting salaries of the new signees...but youve taken the time to do what I simply refused to do....Scola or Brand couldve been added...as Ive said...when they made the dump with Dallas it set the tone for something big. Now...they did nothing big...they signed Green and Dj and left another 4 or 5 million unused...which was the whole point really...

    I said in a thread somewhere....was this really about saving money to sign Barbosa? REally? who would you rather have...and remember who our backup pf is....and David West, Luis Scola or Barbosa....I know who I would select....

  35. #50
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    Default Re: Cash Considerations kept quiet in the Mahinmi/Dallas deal??

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Except it wouldnt have necessarily required going into luxury tax world. Getting Brand or Scola wouldnt have mean the luxury tax.
    I'm done with this, it's pretty clear at this point you just want to argue. You've totally changed your argument, you weren't talking about guys like Brand/Scola, you were referring to BIG MOVES, like a starter etc.

    Also, to be clear, I share a little disappointment that we apparently didn't bid on either of those guys. But who knows what the deal was with that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    And lets be very, very clear. If youre going to take the attitude youre suggesting Simon is now taking, then you damn sure better be maximizing every single asset you have...and giving assets away for no return is not doing that.
    Actually under the argument I'm making, those assets were in fact not for nothing, they were for CAP SPACE, which directly resulted in us being able to get Augustin and Green, which were the replacements for DC and DJ. The net effect for us was essentially trading DJ and DC for Augustin/Green. How many times do people have to say this before you get it. If you accept that we won't go into the tax, and in fact might want a few mil as a cushion to work with this year/next year for trades or using the MLE or whatever while still avoiding the tax, then this is a perfectly reasonable conclusion to make.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    When you then are also buying 2nd rounders that would appear to be highly inefficient and borderline inept...
    Are you referring to the 2nd round pick we got before free agency was even close to starting? I guess now the front office is supposed to be psychic too?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    which is again why i suggested they probably got something in the form of cash in return.
    Like I said, interesting possibility but ok, not much else to say.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Because surely if theyre gonna take this tight approach they certainly wouldnt give away assets when its quite clear someting could have been gotten in return.
    WE GET IT. YOUR OPINION. You're not moving the needle with me by just repeating this opinion over and over and over and over and over and over again.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    And thats not conjecture...It happens all the time. As stated, we gave up a 2nd for Barbosa...then went out and bought a 2nd at the draft...then failed to get one when we should have in this latest travesty of a deal. You think thats conjecture? How so? Please...tell me.
    It's conjecture because you're assuming that in every case you can always get those picks from teams, when in fact you have no direct evidence of that. You have no proof, therefore it's conjecture. I see what you're saying, I'm not saying you aren't using any logic or haven't thought this through, I'm just saying it's still a guess on your part that we absolutely, positively, without a shadow of a doubt could get those picks.

    If your whole argument is that we didn't get 2 second round draft picks, then that's not really much is it?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Did we or did we not give a 2nd rounder in exchange for Barbosa???? Did we or did we not get zero 2nd rounders for Collison and D. Jones? Did we or did we not pay for a 2nd rounder in the draft? Exactly.
    I think you're missing the part where that automatically, magically means it can be done in each and every circumstance no matter what. Again, show me a specific trade that we could have made, but didn't, where we end up with the players we wanted PLUS these two super-valuable 2nd round picks you're talking about.

    -------------

    I'm going to stop here, because honestly you're just repeating yourself over and over. We know what you think. It's not a totally crazy opinion but I just happen to disagree with it, as apparently several others do too. You've made your case, you're not going to convince anyone you already haven't convinced at this point. Can we move on to other topics now please?
    Last edited by rabid; 07-14-2012 at 10:34 PM.

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