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Thread: Off season report cards (insider request)

  1. #1
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    Default Off season report cards (insider request)

    Could anyone with insider post the details of this?
    http://insider.espn.go.com/nba/story...des-every-team

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    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Pacers... D-....wouldve been much higher if not for the fact they had 20 million in capspace....all the moves they made were that of a team over the cap. They simply didnt use their capspace, at all....

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    INDIANA PACERS
    Key additions: Roy Hibbert (re-sign), George Hill (re-sign), D.J. Augustin (FA), Gerald Green (FA), Ian Mahinmi (sign-and-trade), Miles Plumlee (draft), Orlando Johnson (draft), Donnie Walsh (team president), Kevin Pritchard (GM)

    Key subtractions: Darren Collison, Dahntay Jones, Larry Bird (team president), David Morway (GM)

    After experiencing a level of success that even they couldn't predict last season, the Pacers' goal this offseason was to bring back their starting five and strengthen their bench.

    The Pacers achieved their first goal. The team was hit with a huge four-year, $58 million offer sheet from the Blazers for Hibbert on July 1. Hibbert has been a key part of the rebuilding effort, but virtually everyone agrees that $58 million is a lot for him. The Pacers wisely agreed to pay Hibbert, but it cost them. In the meantime, the team overreacted a bit and threw a whopping $40 million at Hill. I'm a Hill fan and think he has upside, but again, the contract seemed a tad excessive.

    Whether they achieved the second goal is debatable. The decision to trade Collison, who led the team in playoff PER, for the right to give $16 million to Mahinmi is a head-scratcher. Considering the Pacers could have signed Mahinmi straight up as an unrestricted free agent for probably half the cost -- he wasn't getting two years, $8 million from anyone else -- it's completely unclear why they had to give away Collison to do it. Did they really need to get Jones' $2.9 million off the books that badly?

    Mahinmi does give the Pacers a credible backup 5 when Hibbert is out of the game, but the cost, both in dollars and lost assets, was unusually high.

    The Pacers quickly countered Collison's loss by signing Augustin to a one-year, $3.5 million deal. Collison was statistically superior to Augustin by virtually every metric but one -- pure point guard rating. Augustin is a better passer than Collison, which was a need for the Pacers. Hill isn't a pure point guard, and Augustin's specialty is getting everyone involved. But when you factor in that Augustin can't guard anyone and that they're paying him $1.3 million more than they were Collison, I'm not sure this is an upgrade.

    Offensively, Green is an upgrade over Jones. He put up some big numbers for the fledgling Nets last season. However, he lacks the defensive toughness or maturity that Jones brought to the table.

    Finally, the Pacers' draft night call on Plumlee felt a little off. Plumlee had wowed scouts (and apparently Bird) in workouts with his freakish athletic ability, but he rarely showed it during his four years at Duke. Workout wonders infiltrate the first round virtually every year. They rarely pan out.

    None of these smaller moves should keep the Pacers from being a top-four team in the East, but the difference between good teams and great teams often is in the details. The Pacers, for the first time in a while, seemed to smudge them this summer.

    GRADE: B-

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    Grow some nuts Heisenberg's Avatar
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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Pacers... D-....wouldve been much higher if not for the fact they had 20 million in capspace....all the moves they made were that of a team over the cap. They simply didnt use their capspace, at all....
    except to, y'know, re-sign Hill and Hibbert

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacerPenguins View Post
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    I really do not get this. So Simon goes over the cap and is nearly 5M away from the Luxury Tax. Then why would Bird leave.. maybe there was a difference in opinion on how to use the cap room. I dont think it could have come down to only Gordon. Maybe Bird wanted to push it right to the Tax limit. I give props to Simon for being willing to spend over the cap.

    I do have to agree that we overpaid for Hill. and the author makes another valid point with overpaying Mahanami.. although centers are overly valued.

    Im really not sure to make of all this. Pacers improved a little i believe, but it could have been so much more.

    i want to break down each move individually:

    re-signing Hibbert - A
    re-siginging Hill - B (overpaid about a 1M per season but for a hometwon kid w his pedigree im good with it)

    DC DJ trade for backup center and paying him too much and not maximizing DC's value - D
    signing Augustin and Green - B

    Plumlee - tbd
    letting barbosa lou fez walk - B

    overall

    solid B but should have been an A. offseason is not over and i want to add one more thing.

    Hansbrough i liked for awhile until last year and he sucked. i expect him to rebound bigtime.. he needs to be automatic from 12 feet. if he can get that shot down and play stronger defense than im good with keeping him. this is def a make or break year for him.

    im wondering if it had to do with bad chemistry b/t lou and hansbrough. hansbrough always played solid next to Jeff Foster.
    Last edited by PacersPride; 07-13-2012 at 08:25 PM.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    I really do not get this. So Simon goes over the cap and is nearly 5M away from the Luxury Tax. Then why would Bird leave.. maybe there was a difference in opinion on how to use the cap room. I dont think it could have come down to only Gordon. Maybe Bird wanted to push it right to the Tax limit. I give props to Simon for being willing to spend over the cap.

    I do have to agree that we overpaid for Hill. and the author makes another valid point with overpaying Mahanami.. although centers are overly valued.

    Im really not sure to make of all this. Pacers improved a little i believe, but it could have been so much more.

    i want to break down each move individually:

    re-signing Hibbert - A
    re-siginging Hill - B (overpaid about a 1M per season but for a hometwon kid w his pedigree im good with it)

    DC DJ trade for backup center and paying him too much and not maximizing DC's value - D
    signing Augustin and Green - B

    Plumlee - tbd
    letting barbosa lou fez walk - B

    overall

    solid B but should have been an A. offseason is not over and i want to add one more thing.

    Hansbrough i liked for awhile until last year and he sucked. i expect him to rebound bigtime.. he needs to be automatic from 12 feet. if he can get that shot down and play stronger defense than im good with keeping him. this is def a make or break year for him.

    im wondering if it had to do with bad chemistry b/t lou and hansbrough. hansbrough always played solid next to Jeff Foster.
    Chad Ford is just butt hurt that we got rid of his boyfriend (Morway)

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    I think a B- is too generous considering what we could have achieved. I think Bird would have handled this much better, he certainly did last year.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    I still think a lot of people are stuck in the optimistic pre-offseason phase where they don't realize this team did the best it could this offseason and there was no way we were getting Gordon, Williams, or Nash.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Heisenberg View Post
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    except to, y'know, re-sign Hill and Hibbert
    Nope....couldve done exactly what we did...including re-signing Hill and Hibbert..if over the cap...

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Nope....couldve done exactly what we did...including re-signing Hill and Hibbert..if over the cap...
    the two cost us a combined 4 million or so last year. next year they'll cost us 18ish. if you expected to spend 20 million of capspace AND re-sign them then you're just rooting for the wrong team.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    I still think a lot of people are stuck in the optimistic pre-offseason phase where they don't realize this team did the best it could this offseason and there was no way we were getting Gordon, Williams, or Nash.
    I think everyone understands the part about Gordon, Williams and Nash.
    For me it's about not bringing in Kaman when we could have afforded it. Followed by making bad business moves in giving away 2 assets to Cuban for nothing and not managing the signing of Hibbert Hill in a manner where they could have went after Scola.
    We got a little better, but without these mistakes could have been better for the money that was spent.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    why the hell would we have spent 8 million to bring Kaman in for play back up C?

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    It's so easy to spend other people's money.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    why the hell would we have spent 8 million to bring Kaman in for play back up C?
    You wouldn't, Kaman is too good for that. You'd give him 30 min. playing all the backup C minutes and some backup pf minutes. Yes, he can play the 4.
    We'd have an advantage over every front court in the east.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersHomer View Post
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    It's so easy to spend other people's money.
    But why even go over the cap? As long as the team stays inside the LT and is on the path to title contender I think Simon should spend. If the team is sub 500, don't spend. At some point you need to go all in or stay all out. No one, including myself is saying that Simon is cheap but getting close to the LT is what it takes to go after a title.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    You wouldn't, Kaman is too good for that. You'd give him 30 min. playing all the backup C minutes and some backup pf minutes. Yes, he can play the 4.
    We'd have an advantage over every front court in the east.
    Right now we have one of the best front courts in the league though. I dont see Kaman drastically improving this team. We wouldn't beat Miami with Kaman. And we would then still have DC and Jones instead of Augustin and Green.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    But why even go over the cap? As long as the team stays inside the LT and is on the path to title contender I think Simon should spend. If the team is sub 500, don't spend. At some point you need to go all in or stay all out. No one, including myself is saying that Simon is cheap but getting close to the LT is what it takes to go after a title.
    We're over the cap right now I believe. Also Kaman would have never wanted to backup an All-Star when he could start alongside Dirk. Indiana is not a desirable place for a number of reasons. The Pacers can't be spending a lot of money on injury-prone guys right now. The Pacers are going about this the right way, fine-tuning the issues on a good team and setting themselves up to where they will always have some cap flexibility. Signing Kaman long term would have ruined that flexibility.

  27. #18

    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    We did not pursue my number one priority (G. Dragic), but I am not going to whine. I think I am more pleased than the average member of this board with our off season.

    We surprised everybody with our performance this past season.

    The first goal for the off season was to do no harm. We succeeded. Our concluding and most successful starting five from last year (G. Hill, P. George, D. Granger, D. West, and R. Hibbert are all back, and three of them (Hill, George, Hibbert) are young enough and dedicated enough that we can expect improvement.

    The second goal of the off season was to improve our second five, which was what held us back at the end of last season when we hit tough competition. I believe

    that D.J. Augustin is an improvement over D. Collison,

    that G. Green is an improvement over both D. Jones and L. Barbosa,

    that I. Mahinmi is an improvement over L. Amundson,

    that Miles Plumlee will likely be or before the end of the year become an improvement over T. Hansbrough (and, if not, at this point we still have Hansbrough who just might improve on himself, plus we also still have J. Pendergraph about whom we have heard much better things than we have yet seen, implying that the better things could yet happen.

    As a third option at both PG and SG, we have an improving and a maturing Lance Stephenson with the potential to have a breakout year.

    And, of course, Hill is still an option to pick up some quality time at SG.

    As a fifth option at SG, we have O. Johnson, who has real potential. Although he did not display it well in Summer League, I believe that it will come with practice time with the team and learning his role. He could turn out great.

    This has filled 13 of our 15 slots. If we want to fill the last slots, I would recommend some eager, hard-working players from our summer league team who would help us in practice and develop their readiness to play--say J. Mavunga and C. Kramer.

    If that is not significant improvement over last year, I will be very surprised.

    I would not be surprised to see a trade or two yet, but, by and large, I offer congratulations to our front office.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by PacersPride View Post
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    I really do not get this. So Simon goes over the cap and is nearly 5M away from the Luxury Tax. Then why would Bird leave..
    Maybe the reasons he gave were they truth after all.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by johndozark View Post
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    As a fifth option at SG, we have O. Johnson, who has real potential. Although he did not display it well in Summer League, I believe that it will come with practice time with the team and learning his role. He could turn out great.
    His game at UCSB tended to be very efficient. I think he got it in his head that he should try to assert himself and show that he's more than a role player rather than just play his game. The results were disastrous during the SL. He's known as being a good teammate and an unselfish player. He can hit from outside. I know for a fact that he is capable of hitting those shots he constantly bricked in SL. He hit like 43% from 3 last year. He just needs to settle down and stop trying to be something he's not. Hopefully the coaches and veterans take him aside and help him get it together.

  32. #21
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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    I started typing this yesterday evening but I ran out of time to get it posted. Wife pulling the arm! LOL

    I was sold on the DC and DJ for Mahimni trade when it took place. So I don't have to look at the big picture for myself. However, I have said to others that over the whole haul we did very well.

    Mahimni is 25 yrs. old that has a fantastic build. He can do many of the things that you want a big to do. He's fast, strong, can jump, has a fantastic wing span. He has a solid 15 foot shot and is understanding the game very well. He has all the upside. Pacers have him for 4 years and Ian and Roy could be the best 1-2 punch in the league. I put him in the Jordan, Ibaka area with a better shot. He will be a force coming off the bench. I wanted him before the FA started and I got my wish.

    Green and Augustin are both solid pick ups. I have no ill's on these 2 fellas.

    As far as losing DC, I have no problem with this, I knew they had something else lined up. You don't trade a value pg and not get one back when you need it. I am a DC fan as many of you know, but to get Jones out of here to get another asset in Green is flippin awsome.

    I give the FO an A- for the fact they have brought everyone back that needed to be except Hans, but they tried and I'm sure still trying. They got rid of Price, Lou, Jones and Fez which I am so happy that I don't have to see them on the floor anymore (thank you KP). I'm sure Barbosa will be back with Pacers having bird rights and being over the cap. It's really a no brainer unless a trade is made really soon or a team gives him a heck of a deal (which I doubt).

    I'll give the FO an A+ if they can pull off a trade like Hans to Warriors, Patterson to Pacers and Rockets receive a future 1st from Pacers and a future 2nd from Warriors...Warriors could use a backup PF (they are showing interest in Blair) and this would get Rockets more picks.

    I'd also like to see a trade for Pendergraph...maybe Pend's for CJ Miles. May need a 3rd team cause I don't think Jazz would be interested in Pend's, In fact, I don't think anyone would be interested in Pend"s. I know I'm not!

    Hibbert / Mahimni / Plumlee
    West / Patterson / Plumlee
    Granger / Green / Miles
    George / Barbosa / Johnson
    Hill / Augustin / Stephenson
    Last edited by Pacer Fan; 07-14-2012 at 03:15 PM.
    .

    Frank Vogel says "Killer instinct, start strong, build a lead and then step on their throats."

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacer Fan View Post
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    I started typing this yesterday evening but I ran out of time to get it posted. Wife pulling the arm! LOL

    I was sold on the DC and DJ for Mahimni trade when it took place. So I don't have to look at the big picture for myself. However, I have said to others that over the whole haul we did very well.

    Mahimni is 25 yrs. old that has a fantastic build. He can do many of the things that you want a big to do. He's fast, strong, can jump, has a fantastic wing span. He has a solid 15 foot shot and is understanding the game very well. He has all the upside. Pacers have him for 4 years and Ian and Roy could be the best 1-2 punch in the league. I put him in the Jordan, Ibaka area with a better shot. He will be a force coming off the bench. I wanted him before the FA started and I got my wish.

    Green and Augustin are both solid pick ups. I have no ill's on these 2 fellas.

    As far as losing DC, I have no problem with this, I knew they had something else lined up. You don't trade a value pg and not get one back when you need it. I am a DC fan as many of you know, but to get Jones out of here to get another asset in Green is flippin awsome.

    I give the FO an A- for the fact they have brought everyone back that needed to be except Hans, but they tried and I'm sure still trying. They got rid of Price, Lou, Jones and Fez which I am so happy that I don't have to see them on the floor anymore (thank you KP). I'm sure Barbosa will be back with Pacers having bird rights and being over the cap. It's really a no brainer unless a trade is made really soon or a team gives him a heck of a deal (which I doubt).

    I'll give the FO an A+ if they can pull off a trade like Hans to Warriors, Patterson to Pacers and Rockets receive a future 1st from Pacers and a future 2nd from Warriors...Warriors could use a backup PF (they are showing interest in Blair) and this would get Rockets more picks.

    I'd also like to see a trade for Pendergraph...maybe Pend's for CJ Miles. May need a 3rd team cause I don't think Jazz would be interested in Pend's, In fact, I don't think anyone would be interested in Pend"s. I know I'm not!

    Hibbert / Mahimni / Plumlee
    West / Patterson / Plumlee
    Granger / Green / Miles
    George / Barbosa / Johnson
    Hill / Augustin / Stephenson
    You took all the points I wanted to make lol. But to add to what you said, this team is now a lot more athletic and versatile. We can play big or small; and can match up with any team in the league. Our wings all all 6'8 and can shoot and slash. We're one more 3pt shooter from being as complete of a team as can be.

    People have to be realistic about the ways we can build this team. We won't be able to just sign guys, we have to build off players that WANT to play here and though we overplayed for Hill a little bit, I'm pretty happy with our offseason.

    solid B.

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    Default Re: Off season report cards (insider request)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ace E.Anderson View Post
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    You took all the points I wanted to make lol. But to add to what you said, this team is now a lot more athletic and versatile. We can play big or small; and can match up with any team in the league. Our wings all all 6'8 and can shoot and slash. We're one more 3pt shooter from being as complete of a team as can be.

    People have to be realistic about the ways we can build this team. We won't be able to just sign guys, we have to build off players that WANT to play here and though we overplayed for Hill a little bit, I'm pretty happy with our offseason.

    solid B.
    Really wish we'd have gotten in on that Korver trade, although the Bulls likely wouldn't try to help us any.

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