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Thread: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

  1. #51
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Sorry...didnt see the other thread...its so very, very simple....

    You didnt need the capspace we had to re-sign HIbbert and Hill....We could be over the cap and still re-sign HIll and Hibbert to the deals we did.
    Yes even I understand that.

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    The point was we couldve signed a max free agent or any other combination of free agents with the capspace we had. Or we couldve made trades just like DAllas did with us. Where they took back more salary than they sent out. We couldve made significant additions to the team while doing pretty much everything else we did. And we didnt. We effectively did not use our capspace that we worked so hard for so many years to get. Then when we didnt use it, and did sign HIll and HIbbert...it all evaporated...

    A tremendous waste. Take the exact same team we have right now. And add Eric Gordon. Or OJ mayo. Or Louis Scola. Or Steve Nash. Or Elton Brand. Or actually a combination of some of these players. Nash was never gonna come here. Thats a given. The point is talent upgrades couldve been made in addition to just the bench fodder. We had the perfect opportunity to upgrade our starters. And didnt. Having it that easy doesnt happen very often. Capspace, flexibility, etc. WE will find out, because going forward were not gonna hve that chance again without major moves....which isnt likely. Just a wasted opportunity. The most inefficient use of capspace of all time. The Barbosa was a perfect example of a great move using capspace. Got a player basically for free. And he expired. Which means we could do it again this offseason. But we knew we had to make big moves before we signed HIll and Hibbert to new deals. Its now apparent that the decision was made that that wasnt gonna happen. Which is most likely why Bird left. Just a shame. The one real chance to add significant assets to the team. And likely be far more competitive in competing for a title. Gone. No matter what happens down the road, this was an opportunity lost.
    What you're actually saying is that we didn't get the players you wanted us to get (Gordon, Mayo, Scola, Brand), not that we didn't spend money.

    I agree that this feels like a bit of a missed opportunity, but I think you're wrong that it was about money, unless you mean going into the luxury tax (which is NOT an option for this team under the new CBA).

    The team was clearly prepared to go over the cap, they just spent a ton of cash.

    Like you said Nash was probably a pipe dream. Gordon was too risky I think. I agree that Brand/Scola are kind of head-scratchers but we don't know the whole story yet.

    Also, we still have the MLE and we have the whole summer to make trades. Remember the West signing didn't happen until pretty late in the off-season last year. I think we might still make one or two smallish moves over the summer.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Signing Ian straight up wouldn't have used all our cap space and wouldn't have stopped any of the other moves. The team could simply move Jones for the 2cd. from NY and find a team wanting a starting pg. At worst you get another 2cd. for DC but I really think you could get a 1st. We'd have the same team and same salary only we'd have 2 future picks.
    Bingo....we wasted players...we wasted capspace...makes no sense....its like a friggen firesale....only lots of activity to try and mask the fact that a fire is actually going on...

  3. #53

    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Signing Ian straight up wouldn't have used all our cap space and wouldn't have stopped any of the other moves. The team could simply move Jones for the 2cd. from NY and find a team wanting a starting pg. At worst you get another 2cd. for DC but I really think you could get a 1st. We'd have the same team and same salary only we'd have 2 future picks.
    So you think the front office knew they could get two easy picks by making a couple of phone calls and decided to trade them together for absolutely nothing instead? (since Mahinimi could be signed straight up). That would be an absurd level of incompetence. Since it's not likely the front office is that incompetent, the simplest answer is that those trades really weren't available.

    Does that mean it wasn't a bad trade? Not at all. The front office could be wrong for valuing cap space over keeping Collison/Jones or trading them somewhere else. But if the front office could have their cake and eaten it too (gotten all the cap space they wanted and gotten picks) they would have done it. The front office clearly understands that getting everything you want in a deal is better than only getting some of what you want.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Yes even I understand that.



    What you're actually saying is that we didn't get the players you wanted us to get (Gordon, Mayo, Scola, Brand), not that we didn't spend money..
    Absolutely positively not...its about maximizing assets. In this case, a huge amount of capspace...I didnt care who they get really. In fact, I can totally understand the argument against Gordon. I also understand the argument for. But you dont just let the capspace evaporate. Not when ur already falling behind the upper echelon as theyre getting better. Im telling you. An opportunity like we had happens very rarely. Especially with the young core we have. And it came at the expense of a lot of tough years. Then to basically **** it all away, well that makes sense. We have been clamoring for years about being able to get a difference makeer. Game changer. Alpha dog. Well guess what...WE had the capspace to do it. We had the young pieces to do it...We have our draft picks to do it. And we did nothing. Nothing.

    Well nothing but add some bench fodder. Is there anyone here who thinks Green, Mahinmi or Augustin will turn into a game changer/alpha dog?

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Signing Mahinmi outright means we dont give away DC and Jones for nothing. No Augustin? Ok....Thats one possibility. Which means we have DC for one more year at about a million and half less than Augustin and most would agree theyre similar one way or the other....so for a team thats watching finances, whats the point. Its not like they signed Augustin to a multi year deal. DC likely couldve beeen traded for a draft pick of some sort at the very least. If one wanted. As for no Green. Thats simply not true. They easily couldve signed Green. Hell they could have signed all of them.

    And youre just flat out wrong on why we arent bidding on BRand and Scola. Has nothing to do with flipping Tyler for Augustin. And it absolutely is because we signed Hibbert and hill too soon. We had the capspace to pursue both Brand and Scola. In fact we couldve conceivably gotten both. But the minute we re-signed HIbbert and Hill, the capspace disappeared. And was no longer and option. But the bottom line is its now quite apparent that we didnt go after either of them or anyone else because we simply didnt want to invest the money....
    Which is exactly what i said. They didn't want to add onto the $65 million payroll. Had they flipped Tyler for Augustin, our payroll would have been lower, they would have been more likely to put in a bid. I know we had space to do it before we resigned Hibbert and Hill. But it didn't matter because of what the payroll would have been with all those players together.

    Any no we couldn't not have signed all those players and kept DC and Jones. We would have been over the luxury tax. No way that is gonna happen dude. And yeah Augustin and DC are similar except for one thing, Augustin can actually pass.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Absolutely positively not...its about maximizing assets. In this case, a huge amount of capspace...I didnt care who they get really. In fact, I can totally understand the argument against Gordon. I also understand the argument for. But you dont just let the capspace evaporate. Not when ur already falling behind the upper echelon as theyre getting better. Im telling you. An opportunity like we had happens very rarely. Especially with the young core we have. And it came at the expense of a lot of tough years. Then to basically **** it all away, well that makes sense. We have been clamoring for years about being able to get a difference makeer. Game changer. Alpha dog. Well guess what...WE had the capspace to do it. We had the young pieces to do it...We have our draft picks to do it. And we did nothing. Nothing.
    like I asked on the last page, what moves would you have made?

  8. #57

    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Signing Mahinmi outright means we dont give away DC and Jones for nothing. No Augustin? Ok....Thats one possibility. Which means we have DC for one more year at about a million and half less than Augustin and most would agree theyre similar one way or the other....so for a team thats watching finances, whats the point. Its not like they signed Augustin to a multi year deal. DC likely couldve beeen traded for a draft pick of some sort at the very least. If one wanted. As for no Green. Thats simply not true. They easily couldve signed Green. Hell they could have signed all of them.

    And youre just flat out wrong on why we arent bidding on BRand and Scola. Has nothing to do with flipping Tyler for Augustin. And it absolutely is because we signed Hibbert and hill too soon. We had the capspace to pursue both Brand and Scola. In fact we couldve conceivably gotten both. But the minute we re-signed HIbbert and Hill, the capspace disappeared. And was no longer and option. But the bottom line is its now quite apparent that we didnt go after either of them or anyone else because we simply didnt want to invest the money....
    The Pacers only had about 5 million or so left before signing Hibbert and Hill. They wouldn't have been able to get Brand and Scola because even with the low bid for Brand, if they won that they would have only even maybe had the minimum bid for Scola. It's possible they wouldn't have even had that much left.

    So essentially that's what the Pacers gave up on. 5 million or so. And reading between the lines with Pritchard's interview, it sounds like there was pressure from Hibbert and Hill's camp to get their deals done, so they were working with a clock. IMO, passing on the last 5 million of the cap is not a sign of failure to invest money in the team. And it's quite possible the number is lower than that.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Cubs231721 View Post
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    So you think the front office knew they could get two easy picks by making a couple of phone calls and decided to trade them together for absolutely nothing instead? (since Mahinimi could be signed straight up). That would be an absurd level of incompetence. Since it's not likely the front office is that incompetent, the simplest answer is that those trades really weren't available.

    Does that mean it wasn't a bad trade? Not at all. The front office could be wrong for valuing cap space over keeping Collison/Jones or trading them somewhere else. But if the front office could have their cake and eaten it too (gotten all the cap space they wanted and gotten picks) they would have done it. The front office clearly understands that getting everything you want in a deal is better than only getting some of what you want.
    Yes, I do think it would have been very easy to move both players. What our front office did in giving away DC alone is very bad business and it is an incompetent move. DC will be the starting pg for the Mavs.
    Do you really think that you couldn't get anything at all for him? We got nothing since Ian could have been signed outright.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Yes, I do think it would have been very easy to move both players. What our front office did in giving away DC alone is very bad business and it is an incompetent move. DC will be the starting pg for the Mavs.
    Do you really think that you couldn't get anything at all for him? We got nothing since Ian could have been signed outright.
    Wait, you mean DC, the only point guard on the Dallas roster, will be the starting point guard? NO WAY!

    Its not like he is starting over someone good lol.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    If anything, DC's stock went up due to his performance in the Miami series.

    For this trade to be a win, Ian is going to have to be a LOT better than I think he is.
    Wait a minute. Is this not something called "the Croshere effect"? We know where that got us. If anything, it has led us to believe that we want to see consistently good performance over a period of time, and not just in a single playoff series, before we start to get all warm and giggly.

    Remember the saying "the sun shines even on a dog's arse one day". The Miami series may very well have been Collison's "one day".

    I was very high on the acquisition of Collison, and I loved Croshere. But sadly neither ever showed us consistently the glimpse of promise that they teased us with in the playoffs.

    I am in the camp that believes that, taken as a whole, our recent acquisitions have served us well to improve our bench while keeping both our total salaries and roster size to a manageable level that will still accommodate additional personnel.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    Wait, you mean DC, the only point guard on the Dallas roster, will be the starting point guard? NO WAY!

    Its not like he is starting over someone good lol.
    So, do you honestly think we couldn't get anything at all for DC?
    We received nothing.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    Yes, I do think it would have been very easy to move both players. What our front office did in giving away DC alone is very bad business and it is an incompetent move. DC will be the starting pg for the Mavs.
    Do you really think that you couldn't get anything at all for him? We got nothing since Ian could have been signed outright.
    I think the Pacers could have moved DC for something, yes. I was unsure before if they could move Jones or not. But if I'm faced with the choice that the front office could either have moved Jones for cap space and chose not to, or they could not move Jones and used DC as the sweetener to entice somebody to take Jones rather than trading DC for a pick somewhere else, I'm forced to choose the latter. The latter one is a highly questionable decision, but the former one just doesn't make any sense.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Pacerized View Post
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    So, do you honestly think we couldn't get anything at all for DC?
    We received nothing.
    only because you twist your idea that Ian Mahinmi is nothing... I really don't know if we could have gotten a first round pick for DC. He's an undersized scoring PG who can't pass or defend. Not the biggest market for players like that.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    only because you twist your idea that Ian Mahinmi is nothing... I really don't know if we could have gotten a first round pick for DC. He's an undersized scoring PG who can't pass or defend. Not the biggest market for players like that.
    LoL....we couldve kept DC and JOnes and signed Mahinmi to the same deal. You do understand this, no?

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    LoL....we couldve kept DC and JOnes and signed Mahinmi to the same deal. You do understand this, no?
    Theoretically, but Mahimni's an FA. We could no more make him sign here than we could Steve Nash.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by iogyhufi View Post
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    Theoretically, but Mahimni's an FA. We could no more make him sign here than we could Steve Nash.
    To be fair, that applies just as much to the sign and trade. Mahimni still works out a contract with Indiana he finds acceptable and agrees to go there. The fact that the way he got there was a little different than most didn't hurt his ability to choose his destination.

    The Mavs and Pacers could have easily separated this into two transactions if they wanted. Signing Mahinmi, and trading Collison/Jones for cap space. Combining the two just let Dallas not send any cash along.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by iogyhufi View Post
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    Theoretically, but Mahimni's an FA. We could no more make him sign here than we could Steve Nash.
    Lol....seriously? I give up.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    LoL....we couldve kept DC and JOnes and signed Mahinmi to the same deal. You do understand this, no?
    LoL...... you do understand if we did that we don't bring in Augustin (who is better than DC) and Green who is better than Jones, no?

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Im sorry if i missed it. Who said something about a cheap owner?

    And btw, shouldnt u be tracking down Roy Hibberts signed offer sheet?

    Oh wait....
    If I had to guess, I would say you did.

    I never said your name, but you felt it necessary to defend yourself. Kind of self explanatory.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    If I had to guess, I would say you did.

    I never said your name, but you felt it necessary to defend yourself. Kind of self explanatory.
    If you guessed me, then u would have again been wrong. And I looked all over and saw noone had said cheap. Hence why i asked. But hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of your perfectly legit strawman argument with yourself.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Sorry, but DC was no where near the player against Miami as you claim him to be, much less the whole season....have you read this thread?
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...e-Miami-series

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by mildlysane View Post
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    Sorry, but DC was no where near the player against Miami as you claim him to be, much less the whole season....have you read this thread?
    http://www.pacersdigest.com/showthre...e-Miami-series
    Wait, you mean DC's 8.7ppg and 1.7apg wasn't the best playoff performance from a player to put on the blue n gold? And his 2 best games, which is why his FG% looks good for the series, we ended up losing? And in those two games he was a combined -18 only better than Barbosa who had a horrific series?

    but i thought his trade value skyrocketed from that performance?

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  27. #73
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    If you guessed me, then u would have again been wrong. And I looked all over and saw noone had said cheap. Hence why i asked. But hey, lets not let the facts get in the way of your perfectly legit strawman argument with yourself.
    seriously dude? I have to post this all again when it's right above this post in the thread? Ok....

    -------------

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Im sorry if i missed it. Who said something about a cheap owner?
    Um....

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    It appears it was all because of having the purse strings held in check.
    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    The offseason has just started...but with HIbbert and Hill now re-signed, most everything that can be done appears to be done. If thats the case....well...its really a pretty massive fail....and yes...it very much appears its totally because of money.
    -------------

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Me thinks you might want to look up the definition of cheap.
    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan
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    from urbandictionary.com:

    1.
    cheap

    A reference to one of the following:
    1. An individual who is extremely careful with money
    -------------

    EDIT: Can you see, just maybe, why some of us thought you were implying that we have a cheap owner?

    Let's move on from the "cheap" thing maybe, ok? I don't even understand what you're arguing.
    Last edited by rabid; 07-14-2012 at 02:01 AM.

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  29. #74
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    EDIT: So what could have been done, that we didn't do, to make us compete for a championship this year?
    Add Brand or Scola.
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    seriously dude? I have to post this all again when it's right above this post in the thread? Ok....

    -------------



    Um....





    -------------





    -------------

    EDIT: Can you see, just maybe, why some of us thought you were implying that we have a cheap owner?

    Let's move on from the "cheap" thing maybe, ok? I don't even understand what you're arguing.
    See...this is the problem...you seem to think Im implying something. Im not...Im saying exactly what I mean. No implication necessary. I said it once and then said it again when you missed it the first time. The franchise had a very rare opportunity to invest in the future of this team. No implication. They had a chance to invest and did not. Does that make them cheap? Personally I dont think so. Like I also said, its the NBA, nothing is cheap. Most importantly, if i wanted to call Herbie cheap, Id call him cheap. Hes got the highest paid CEO in teh country-ie his son...so obviously hes not cheap. But hes definitely failed to not take this rare opportunity to invest in the team with a real chance of actually contending for a title. He chose not too...

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