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Thread: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

  1. #26
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    I know a little size might help us on the second team. I'm also fine with the trade and I don't think we lost much with Collison gone considering we got Augustin and Green now. But in no uncertain terms, we didn't get that much better. It was negligible. We will need to see some jump in performance from guys like Lance and Paul and our 58M dollar man to see much improvement.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    what gets me is Mahinmi's contract, when we could have just signed him for cheap. i know many people are saying that talent wise, DC/DJ is equal to Augustin/Green, so would it have been better to sign Mahinmi for cheap, and kept the players we already had?

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  4. #28
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    The point is....we didnt have to make a trade to get Mahinmi....we had 20 million in capspace....those chances only come along every blue moon. We had a real chance at making significant upgrades to the roster. A great young core with lots of pieces available for different purposes, etc. And in the end, we did very little that will make any signficant change. And it appears it was all because of having the purse strings held in check. This after a year of a fairly low payroll. Ive been following the Pacers for 40 plus years. Theyve never had this kinda opportunity. Ive never been as disappointed as I am now. Shame on your Herbie...youre a smart businessman. You know there are times you need to invest in the business to get the return youre looking for. You have just made it abundantly clear what sort of return youre looking for.

  5. #29
    I have a Member xBulletproof's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    What kind of a cheap owner only spends 120 million in a week?!! Cheap *******.

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  7. #30
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    what i dont get is if we have cap room left over and were not going to bid on brand or schola than why not keep collison for a trade later. we should have been able to get a first rounder. i think 90% of this board would be okay with the manimhi trade if we got a first rounder back. i think there are arguments both way.. but at the end of the day the OP summarizes how i view it..

    dc dj for green augustin ian

    dissapointed we did not go after brand though. could be other reason many of us are not aware of.. much like most of prob what goes down. if i were an owner and knew the true logistics of things i would not be able to read these boards simply due to the lack of knowledge exhibited..

    neither here nor there. pacers will win some games.. but the nba is becoming the new mlb ... only a few select teams can win the championship.

  8. #31

    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    I cannot get too upset at jettisoning our worst bench playoff performers, upgrading spots 6-10 minus Hans in terms of athleticism, and raising team salary to much closer to the LT than to the cap, all while having very weak attendance and ultra-puny local revenue streams.

    Dunno,

    it just seems like expecting a whole lot more is like a spoiled rich teen expecting a convertible on his/her 16th birthday

    65 million plus in annual payroll isn't chump change.
    Last edited by Slick Pinkham; 07-13-2012 at 07:59 PM.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  9. #32
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by xBulletproof View Post
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    What kind of a cheap owner only spends 120 million in a week?!! Cheap *******.
    Im sorry if i missed it. Who said something about a cheap owner?

    And btw, shouldnt u be tracking down Roy Hibberts signed offer sheet?

    Oh wait....

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Maybe someone should make a thread about all this being a single trade instead of micro-analyzing each individual move. Oh wait
    "Just look at the flowers ........ BANG"

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Im sorry if i missed it. Who said something about a cheap owner?

    And btw, shouldnt u be tracking down Roy Hibberts signed offer sheet?

    Oh wait....

  13. #35
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Im sorry if i missed it. Who said something about a cheap owner?
    Um....

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    It appears it was all because of having the purse strings held in check.
    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    The offseason has just started...but with HIbbert and Hill now re-signed, most everything that can be done appears to be done. If thats the case....well...its really a pretty massive fail....and yes...it very much appears its totally because of money.
    You never answered me in the other thread... how is this about the purse strings being held in check when we just signed like $120 million in contracts over the past couple of days, including the max for Roy and $40 mil/5yrs for Hill? Not a rhetorical question, I feel like I'm missing something here.
    Last edited by rabid; 07-13-2012 at 08:13 PM.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Hoop View Post
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    Maybe someone should make a thread about all this being a single trade instead of micro-analyzing each individual move. Oh wait
    What can I say, I tried.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Um....
    Me thinks you might want to look up the definition of cheap. As I stated...ownership had a once in a blue moon opportunity to invest in their business and potentially reap some significant rewards. They did not. They just flat out didnt use their capspace...zero. They couldve pretty much made every single move if they were over the cap....what a waste...huge waste....Theres nothing about the NBA thats cheap.

  16. #38
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Actually the more I think about the whole picture the more it sucks, I was happy about the trade yesterday because I thought something else was coming next, now we used the whole cap space and are pretty close to what we had before, now we don't even have cap space to make anything else happen so for the mean time we are set until next year.
    The lack of cap space is due to the Hill/Hibbert signings though, not these other moves. People seem to be forgetting that.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Trying to get people to view our offseason moves as if they were one move doesn't work, because they were not one move. The DC/DJ move is being analyzed because it was a useless move. We gained nothing from it. We gave Dallas DC and DJ for free. Just because we picked up Augustin and Green doesn't justify throwing players away for nothing in return.


    Here's an analogy. Image that you get a really good deal on some expensive rims and tires (the D.J Augustin and Gerald Green deals), then slap them on some piece of **** car (Ian Mahinmi trade). As nice as the tires may look, they don't improve the way the car looks. It's still the same piece of ****.



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  19. #40
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by D0NT SH0OT ME View Post
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    Trying to get people to view our offseason moves as if they were one move doesn't work, because they were not one move. The DC/DJ move is being analyzed because it was a useless move. We gained nothing from it. We gave Dallas DC and DJ for free. Just because we picked up Augustin and Green doesn't justify throwing players away for nothing in return.


    Here's an analogy. Image that you get a really good deal on some expensive rims and tires (the D.J Augustin and Gerald Green deals), then slap them on some piece of **** car (Ian Mahinmi trade). As nice as the tires may look, they don't improve the way the car looks. It's still the same piece of ****.


    Now if that car was an old AMC Pacer...oh my....that would be rich....wonder if Magic Rat could make that happen.

  20. #41
    Member rabid's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Me thinks you might want to look up the definition of cheap.
    I asked you a nice honest question, no need to get snarky.

    http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=cheap

    Quote Originally Posted by urbandictionary.com
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    1. cheap

    A reference to one of the following:
    1. An individual who is extremely careful with money
    Is that not the definition you were going for?

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    As I stated...ownership had a once in a blue moon opportunity to invest in their business and potentially reap some significant rewards. They did not. They just flat out didnt use their capspace...zero. They couldve pretty much made every single move if they were over the cap....what a waste...huge waste....Theres nothing about the NBA thats cheap.
    We have like 65 million in salary now right? We DID use our capspace, we used it to re-sign 2/5 of our starting lineup. Were you expecting us to go into the luxury tax?

    I'm still not getting what you're saying, or you're just not communicating it very well.
    Last edited by rabid; 07-13-2012 at 08:28 PM.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Im sorry if i missed it. Who said something about a cheap owner?

    And btw, shouldnt u be tracking down Roy Hibberts signed offer sheet?

    Oh wait....
    holy ****, why is this still being brought up? Someone was wrong about a moot point on the internet?! NO ****ING WAY!

    Signing Mahinmi outright means DC and Jones stay. Which means no Augustin. And likely means no Green. The reason we didn't bid on Brand or Scola isn't cause we signed Hibbert and Hill "too soon" its because we couldn't flip Hansbrough for Augustin. Our payroll is going to be around $65 million, thats quite a bit of money. Signing either would put us dangerously close to the Luxury Tax, something Simon wants to avoid and I can respect that.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by Shade View Post
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    We know that nothing was worked out with Augustin prior to the trade.
    We know he wasn't officially signed, but what have you read that actually indicates that they weren't in any sort of negotiations with him before they pulled the trigger on this deal? Maybe I've missed something, but the fact that the two deals happened within a day of each other makes me think that the Augustin deal was as good as done before the Dallas deal was made.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Me thinks you might want to look up the definition of cheap. As I stated...ownership had a once in a blue moon opportunity to invest in their business and potentially reap some significant rewards. They did not. They just flat out didnt use their capspace...zero. They couldve pretty much made every single move if they were over the cap....what a waste...huge waste....Theres nothing about the NBA thats cheap.
    tell me, which moves could they have made?

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by D0NT SH0OT ME View Post
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    Trying to get people to view our offseason moves as if they were one move doesn't work, because they were not one move. The DC/DJ move is being analyzed because it was a useless move. We gained nothing from it. We gave Dallas DC and DJ for free. Just because we picked up Augustin and Green doesn't justify throwing players away for nothing in return.


    Here's an analogy. Image that you get a really good deal on some expensive rims and tires (the D.J Augustin and Gerald Green deals), then slap them on some piece of **** car (Ian Mahinmi trade). As nice as the tires may look, they don't improve the way the car looks. It's still the same piece of ****.



    Nice car

  26. #46
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by rabidpacersfan View Post
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    Um....





    You never answered me in the other thread... how is this about the purse strings being held in check when we just signed like $120 million in contracts over the past couple of days, including the max for Roy and $40 mil/5yrs for Hill? Not a rhetorical question, I feel like I'm missing something here.
    Sorry...didnt see the other thread...its so very, very simple....

    You didnt need the capspace we had to re-sign HIbbert and Hill....We could be over the cap and still re-sign HIll and Hibbert to the deals we did. The point was we couldve signed a max free agent or any other combination of free agents with the capspace we had. Or we couldve made trades just like DAllas did with us. Where they took back more salary than they sent out. We couldve made significant additions to the team while doing pretty much everything else we did. And we didnt. We effectively did not use our capspace that we worked so hard for so many years to get. Then when we didnt use it, and did sign HIll and HIbbert...it all evaporated...

    A tremendous waste. Take the exact same team we have right now. And add Eric Gordon. Or OJ mayo. Or Louis Scola. Or Steve Nash. Or Elton Brand. Or actually a combination of some of these players. Nash was never gonna come here. Thats a given. The point is talent upgrades couldve been made in addition to just the bench fodder. We had the perfect opportunity to upgrade our starters. And didnt. Having it that easy doesnt happen very often. Capspace, flexibility, etc. WE will find out, because going forward were not gonna hve that chance again without major moves....which isnt likely. Just a wasted opportunity. The most inefficient use of capspace of all time. The Barbosa was a perfect example of a great move using capspace. Got a player basically for free. And he expired. Which means we could do it again this offseason. But we knew we had to make big moves before we signed HIll and Hibbert to new deals. Its now apparent that the decision was made that that wasnt gonna happen. Which is most likely why Bird left. Just a shame. The one real chance to add significant assets to the team. And likely be far more competitive in competing for a title. Gone. No matter what happens down the road, this was an opportunity lost.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    holy ****, why is this still being brought up? Someone was wrong about a moot point on the internet?! NO ****ING WAY!

    Signing Mahinmi outright means DC and Jones stay. Which means no Augustin. And likely means no Green. The reason we didn't bid on Brand or Scola isn't cause we signed Hibbert and Hill "too soon" its because we couldn't flip Hansbrough for Augustin. Our payroll is going to be around $65 million, thats quite a bit of money. Signing either would put us dangerously close to the Luxury Tax, something Simon wants to avoid and I can respect that.
    Signing Ian straight up wouldn't have used all our cap space and wouldn't have stopped any of the other moves. The team could simply move Jones for the 2cd. from NY and find a team wanting a starting pg. At worst you get another 2cd. for DC but I really think you could get a 1st. We'd have the same team and same salary only we'd have 2 future picks.

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Anybody knows how much cap space we have next year?

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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by cinotimz View Post
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    Sorry...didnt see the other thread...its so very, very simple....

    You didnt need the capspace we had to re-sign HIbbert and Hill....We could be over the cap and still re-sign HIll and Hibbert to the deals we did. The point was we couldve signed a max free agent or any other combination of free agents with the capspace we had. Or we couldve made trades just like DAllas did with us. Where they took back more salary than they sent out. We couldve made significant additions to the team while doing pretty much everything else we did. And we didnt. We effectively did not use our capspace that we worked so hard for so many years to get. Then when we didnt use it, and did sign HIll and HIbbert...it all evaporated...

    A tremendous waste. Take the exact same team we have right now. And add Eric Gordon. Or OJ mayo. Or Louis Scola. Or Steve Nash. Or Elton Brand. Or actually a combination of some of these players. Nash was never gonna come here. Thats a given. The point is talent upgrades couldve been made in addition to just the bench fodder. We had the perfect opportunity to upgrade our starters. And didnt. Having it that easy doesnt happen very often. Capspace, flexibility, etc. WE will find out, because going forward were not gonna hve that chance again without major moves....which isnt likely. Just a wasted opportunity. The most inefficient use of capspace of all time. The Barbosa was a perfect example of a great move using capspace. Got a player basically for free. And he expired. Which means we could do it again this offseason. But we knew we had to make big moves before we signed HIll and Hibbert to new deals. Its now apparent that the decision was made that that wasnt gonna happen. Which is most likely why Bird left. Just a shame. The one real chance to add significant assets to the team. And likely be far more competitive in competing for a title. Gone. No matter what happens down the road, this was an opportunity lost.
    Yep we waisted a huge opportunity, I don't think we are having cap space in a long time.

  31. #50
    You can call me Taz cinotimz's Avatar
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    Default Re: If this had been a SINGLE trade...

    Quote Originally Posted by ilive4sports View Post
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    holy ****, why is this still being brought up? Someone was wrong about a moot point on the internet?! NO ****ING WAY!

    Signing Mahinmi outright means DC and Jones stay. Which means no Augustin. And likely means no Green. The reason we didn't bid on Brand or Scola isn't cause we signed Hibbert and Hill "too soon" its because we couldn't flip Hansbrough for Augustin. Our payroll is going to be around $65 million, thats quite a bit of money. Signing either would put us dangerously close to the Luxury Tax, something Simon wants to avoid and I can respect that.
    Signing Mahinmi outright means we dont give away DC and Jones for nothing. No Augustin? Ok....Thats one possibility. Which means we have DC for one more year at about a million and half less than Augustin and most would agree theyre similar one way or the other....so for a team thats watching finances, whats the point. Its not like they signed Augustin to a multi year deal. DC likely couldve beeen traded for a draft pick of some sort at the very least. If one wanted. As for no Green. Thats simply not true. They easily couldve signed Green. Hell they could have signed all of them.

    And youre just flat out wrong on why we arent bidding on BRand and Scola. Has nothing to do with flipping Tyler for Augustin. And it absolutely is because we signed Hibbert and hill too soon. We had the capspace to pursue both Brand and Scola. In fact we couldve conceivably gotten both. But the minute we re-signed HIbbert and Hill, the capspace disappeared. And was no longer and option. But the bottom line is its now quite apparent that we didnt go after either of them or anyone else because we simply didnt want to invest the money....
    Last edited by cinotimz; 07-13-2012 at 08:45 PM.

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