Page 5 of 7 FirstFirst 1234567 LastLast
Results 101 to 125 of 154

Thread: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

  1. #101
    yawn cgg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL
    Age
    30
    Posts
    2,841

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    "Our starters did fine against Miami starters", this has to be one of PD's biggest myths, the more people repeat it the more it becomes reality, it's almost as good as the "DC is becoming a great point guard" myth.
    I watched most of the games multiple times. It is reality because it is reality. I say it because it is reality.

  2. #102
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    How is it a myth? Watch the games. Look at the stats. The starters got us leads, more often than not. The bench would fritter it away, more often than not. The weak point of every loss was late 1st / early 2nd and late 3rd/ early 4th where the bench could not keep up.
    Yes I got to watch the games and I got to see that Lebron was eating Danny Granger for breakfast, not only that but Danny made it easy for Lebron on D by jacking up shots from the 3 point line, who was guarding Lebron for 30+ minutes a game? Barbosa? No, Lou? No, Tyler? no, it was Danny Granger.

    I also got to watch West getting out rebounded and out hustle by Battie, West was Batties b**** on that series, he couldn't do s*** but is ok let's blame the bench for that.

    Roy was also abused by JA and Turiaf, he was not able to get in position and was not able to score, his D was good in the first few games but once they figured out that his weakness(together with Hill and Paul) was the pick and roll they took him out of the game.

    Again, go ahead and ignore all this and lets keep blaming the bench, I'm not saying that the bench doesn't need an improvement(still), but saying that the bench lost the series is ridiculous.

  3. #103
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Uh Detroit. Rip, Chauncey, Sheed, Big Ben, Tayshaun all made their names because they won rings. None of them are superstars. They all were All-Star bench players who played on the same team, you know, kinda like Roy and Danny. When you're on a top team in the East, you'll get players selected to the All-Star game, and that's how it happened with Detroit.
    They were five stars in their prime at the same time, Danny and West are past their prime,not only that but at least 3 of those players in their prime are better than anything we have now, so is not even close.

  4. #104
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yes I got to watch the games and I got to see that Lebron was eating Danny Granger for breakfast, not only that but Danny made it easy for Lebron on D by jacking up shots from the 3 point line, who was guarding Lebron for 30+ minutes a game? Barbosa? No, Lou? No, Tyler? no, it was Danny Granger.

    I also got to watch West getting out rebounded and out hustle by Battie, West was Batties b**** on that series, he couldn't do s*** but is ok let's blame the bench for that.

    Roy was also abused by JA and Turiaf, he was not able to get in position and was not able to score, his D was good in the first few games but once they figured out that his weakness(together with Hill and Paul) was the pick and roll they took him out of the game.

    Again, go ahead and ignore all this and lets keep blaming the bench, I'm not saying that the bench doesn't need an improvement(still), but saying that the bench lost the series is ridiculous.

    And yet the Pacers starters still managed to outscore the Heat starters.

  5. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:


  6. #105
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    54
    Posts
    10,650

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yes I got to watch the games and I got to see that Lebron was eating Danny Granger for breakfast, not only that but Danny made it easy for Lebron on D by jacking up shots from the 3 point line, who was guarding Lebron for 30+ minutes a game? Barbosa? No, Lou? No, Tyler? no, it was Danny Granger.
    So I'd guess you're going with "because the Heat really didn't care in the first quarter" for the reason we jumped out to a lead so many times?

    Contrary to Board Wisdom, there IS a medium point between "got abused by" and "were better than". Our starters were not able to keep up with the Heat's starters in the long run, but that doesn't mean the Heat ate us all for breakfast every possession of every game. If that was the case it either should have been over in 4 games or LeBron and Wade should have played FEWER minutes in games where they won - after all, if LeBron could score at will every time he had the ball why didn't they have 120 points in regulation every game?

    Granger isn't LeBron but he isn't Johnny McScrub either.

    I DO agree that Granger not making LBJ work on defense had a lot to do with LeBron's ability to find that extra kick at the end of many of the games.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  7. #106
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And yet the Pacers starters still managed to outscore the Heat starters.
    I guess this is the only argument you have, OK go ahead and play the starters for 46 minutes and watch the same result.

  8. #107
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I guess this is the only argument you have, OK go ahead and play the starters for 46 minutes and watch the same result.

    That's the only argument I need. The whole entire point of the game of basketball is to outscore your opponents.

    West getting out hustled doesn't magically take two points off the board.

  9. #108
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    So I'd guess you're going with "because the Heat really didn't care in the first quarter" for the reason we jumped out to a lead so many times?

    Contrary to Board Wisdom, there IS a medium point between "got abused by" and "were better than". Our starters were not able to keep up with the Heat's starters in the long run, but that doesn't mean the Heat ate us all for breakfast every possession of every game. If that was the case it either should have been over in 4 games or LeBron and Wade should have played FEWER minutes in games where they won - after all, if LeBron could score at will every time he had the ball why didn't they have 120 points in regulation every game?

    Granger isn't LeBron but he isn't Johnny McScrub either.

    I DO agree that Granger not making LBJ work on defense had a lot to do with LeBron's ability to find that extra kick at the end of many of the games.
    Just because the Pacers got a lead in the first quarter doesn't mean they were better than Miami's starters, there is a reason why they play 4th quarters, as you know superstars sometimes take it easy until the last quarter, Dwade was the one guy doing that, dissapeared for 3 and showed up in the 4th.

    And Lebron didn't score 120 but he got to score over 40 points per game if I'm not mistaken.

  10. #109
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    That's the only argument I need. The whole entire point of the game of basketball is to outscore your opponents.

    West getting out hustled doesn't magically take two points off the board.
    Again, bring San Antonio's bench and we still have the same result, bench players only play so much, at the end of the day your starters are the ones closing the game and finishing the game, you can only play five people at the same time, go ahead and have the best bench in the NBA but at the end of the day your starters play against their starters and the best starters win every time.

  11. #110
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    NBA but at the end of the day your starters play against their starters and the best starters win every time.
    And yet somehow the Heat managed to find a way to play their starters against the woefully awful Pacers bench, and make their runs then.

  12. #111
    Running with the Big Boys BillS's Avatar
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Danberry
    Age
    54
    Posts
    10,650

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Just because the Pacers got a lead in the first quarter doesn't mean they were better than Miami's starters
    You do realize that's what I have been saying as well, right?

    What I'm saying is that just because we weren't as good doesn't mean we were Teh Suxxors. However, I also don't think we're going to get better than Miami's starters by upgrading our starters.

    What we need is a bench that can at least keep things from falling apart and force the Miami starters to put in these huge minutes while our top guys stay as fresh as possible. I think our starters ARE comparable to TIRED Miami starters, if used correctly.
    BillS

    "Every time I pitched it was like throwing gasoline on a fire. Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw! Pkkw!"
    - Ebby Calvin "Nuke" LaLoosh

  13. The Following 2 Users Say Thank You to BillS For This Useful Post:


  14. #112
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    4,031

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by cgg View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Our starters got out to a lead at the start of every game. They did fine against Miami's starters.
    It's not the size that matters..... it's the mo--- wait that's not right....

    It's not how you start; it's the motion in the ocean.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  15. The Following User Says Thank You to Kid Minneapolis For This Useful Post:


  16. #113
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    And yet somehow the Heat managed to find a way to play their starters against the woefully awful Pacers bench, and make their runs then.
    Yep those 14 minutes by Tyler and the bench in a 48 minutes game killed us.....

    Why the team with the best bench in the NBA did not win the championship is a mystery, and why the team with one of the worse benches won? I guess we would never know.. Or pretend that we don't know...

  17. #114
    Pacer Pride, Colts Strong Kid Minneapolis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    4,031

    Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You do realize that's what I have been saying as well, right?

    What I'm saying is that just because we weren't as good doesn't mean we were Teh Suxxors. However, I also don't think we're going to get better than Miami's starters by upgrading our starters.

    What we need is a bench that can at least keep things from falling apart and force the Miami starters to put in these huge minutes while our top guys stay as fresh as possible. I think our starters ARE comparable to TIRED Miami starters, if used correctly.

    No one said Indy's starters sucked. They just didn't hold their own against Miami's, particularly in the last 3 games. We aren't going to win if our starters and our bench both lose their matchups. Believe it or not, our bench didn't get toasted in those last 3 games as opposed to the first 3 games in which Indy either won, or we almost won. The last 3 when our bench held up --- our starters lost it. Which goes completely against the argument that our bench was the reason we lost. We were completely "in" that series in the 1st 3 games, in which our bench got murdered --- we even won two of those games. This series was decided in the last 3 games, in which our starters lost their mojo, and the bench actually somewhat found it.

    What happened in those last 3 games was a combination of factors, but namely --- we couldn't produce points against their defense. That was because we had no one on offense capable of 1) creating their own shot, and 2) stirring the offense to create holes in the defense. We're a bunch of stand-around, pop off screen guys who have to catch and shoot. Hibbert can produce in the post, but they weren't capable of getting him the ball, which goes back to the beginning of this same point.

    The main focus of this off-season should have been landing an offensive facilitator, particularly at the point, who can bust that defense and get our guys opportunities. Doesn't matter how much we beef up our bench, if our starters get into the same position again, we're just not going to generate enough points.

    Another factor, going back two paragraphs, is that we couldn't find a f'n way to stop LeBron's f'n g'd 100% accurate floaters in the paint that he seemed to magically learn how to do in about 1 quarter.
    Last edited by Kid Minneapolis; 07-18-2012 at 11:37 AM.
    There are two types of quarterbacks in the league: Those whom over time, the league figures out ... and those who figure out the league.

  18. The Following User Says Thank You to Kid Minneapolis For This Useful Post:


  19. #115
    yawn cgg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL
    Age
    30
    Posts
    2,841

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yep those 14 minutes by Tyler and the bench in a 48 minutes game killed us.....
    Yes. They did actually. I spent an entire replay of games watching only Tyler.

  20. The Following User Says Thank You to cgg For This Useful Post:


  21. #116
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by BillS View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    You do realize that's what I have been saying as well, right?

    What I'm saying is that just because we weren't as good doesn't mean we were Teh Suxxors. However, I also don't think we're going to get better than Miami's starters by upgrading our starters.

    What we need is a bench that can at least keep things from falling apart and force the Miami starters to put in these huge minutes while our top guys stay as fresh as possible. I think our starters ARE comparable to TIRED Miami starters, if used correctly.
    No bench in the NBA is going to stop Lebron or Dwade tired or not, that's the point , with this new CBA is even harder to have a good bench, just look at what the Pacers did this offseason, having a deep bench that can compete with super stars for 15 minutes a game is a dream, specially when those super stars are Lebron and Dwade.

  22. #117
    Member Since86's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Muncie
    Posts
    19,887

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Yep those 14 minutes by Tyler and the bench in a 48 minutes game killed us.....
    Bench players had a -40 for the entire series, while starters have a positive +/- and you're telling us that it wasn't the bench, but rather the starters.

    Like you said, keep repeating it enough and you might just start convincing some people.

  23. The Following User Says Thank You to Since86 For This Useful Post:


  24. #118
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jul 2008
    Location
    Indianapolis
    Age
    32
    Posts
    28,142

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Bench players had a -40 for the entire series, while starters have a positive +/- and you're telling us that it wasn't the bench, but rather the starters.

    Like you said, keep repeating it enough and you might just start convincing some people.
    Of course the +/- stats .... how did I forget about those? .......

  25. #119
    Professional Beachcomber mildlysane's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Port Charlotte, Florida
    Age
    43
    Posts
    1,256
    Mood

    Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo Sports Logo

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    I think what lost the series for us was our interior defense and our PnR defense, regardless of who was on the floor. If we improve upon that, we have a chance to beat anyone. We need more/better coaching to accomplish that.

  26. #120

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    I don't want a 5,6,7-man deep bench to try compete with super stars for 15 minutes a game. In the playoffs I want 5 guys playing 36-40 minutes and 3 very versatile and nearly equally talented guys playing 16-20 minutes, such that they can together beat the other team, however they divide up their minutes.
    The poster "pacertom" since this forum began (and before!). I changed my name here to "Slick Pinkham" in honor of the imaginary player That Bobby "Slick" Leonard picked late in the 1971 ABA draft (true story!)

  27. The Following User Says Thank You to Slick Pinkham For This Useful Post:


  28. #121
    yawn cgg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL
    Age
    30
    Posts
    2,841

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by mildlysane View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    I think what lost the series for us was our interior defense and our PnR defense, regardless of who was on the floor. If we improve upon that, we have a chance to beat anyone. We need more/better coaching to accomplish that.
    Mahinmi has better PnR defense numbers than any of our other players, so there's some hope there. Not a huge sample size, but he seemed quick with the trap and then recovering back to his man.

  29. The Following User Says Thank You to cgg For This Useful Post:


  30. #122
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,613

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Bench players had a -40 for the entire series, while starters have a positive +/- and you're telling us that it wasn't the bench, but rather the starters.

    Like you said, keep repeating it enough and you might just start convincing some people.
    Of course the response will be "the score is a misleading stat"...because the +/- stat is THE SCORE, not some combination of 3 times the rebounds per 36 + 2.5 times the assists per 20 - 5 times TOs divided by points minus FG missed.

    You are on the floor, your team goes up 5, you are off the floor, your team goes down 10. I don't give a F if it was blind luck or you're a wizard who can mentally makes the other team miss shots, whatever you were doing WAS NOT LOSING THE GAME. It's math, and the most basic, simple math there is.

    I realize that a combo of factors goes into +/-, but as I've yelled about for years THIS IS TRUE FOR ALL STATS. Lebron's PPG has everything to do with whether Wade, Bosh, Mike Miller or whomever is on the court, who's defending him, what type of plays they are running and what type of defense the other team is running.

    People act like +/- is the only stat that's impacted by who the other 9 guys on the court are. Those people are dumb as a post, period.

    I'm tired of cutting slack on this issue. Get a grip on what stats mean. They all have caveats, they ALL are affected by a lot more than just the individual attributed to them, and over the long haul they all tend to show repeatable trends. Few guys go from 40% FG for 5 years to suddenly hitting 55% FG. This is why we look at them and this is why +/- is just as valuable as assists (a subjectively recorded stat btw) or rebounds (a subjectively recorded stat also).


    Sheesh. I love the whole "math and science are evil, black magic trickery" angle people take when presented with facts. Any given +/- certainly can be misleading....just like every other f-bombing thing in the box score, advanced or otherwise.

    Someone posts the +/- and it kicks off discussion of how those numbers came to be and what other factors might have been in play. People show other stats to expand or debate the point. That's normal, healthy and interesting.

    And then someone goes "+/- is a BS stat". The score. They call the score a BS stat. Think about that.
    Last edited by Naptown_Seth; 07-18-2012 at 11:58 AM.

  31. The Following 3 Users Say Thank You to Naptown_Seth For This Useful Post:


  32. #123
    yawn cgg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL
    Age
    30
    Posts
    2,841

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
    This quote is hidden because you are ignoring this member. Show Quote
    Of course the response will be "the score is a misleading stat"...because the +/- stat is THE SCORE, not some combination of 3 times the rebounds per 36 + 2.5 times the assists per 20 - 5 times TOs divided by points minus FG missed.

    You are on the floor, your team goes up 5, you are off the floor, your team goes down 10. I don't give a F if it was blind luck or you're a wizard who can mentally makes the other team miss shots, whatever you were doing WAS NOT LOSING THE GAME. It's math, and the most basic, simple math there is.

    I realize that a combo of factors goes into +/-, but as I've yelled about for years THIS IS TRUE FOR ALL STATS. Lebron's PPG has everything to do with whether Wade, Bosh, Mike Miller or whomever is on the court, who's defending him, what type of plays they are running and what type of defense the other team is running.

    People act like +/- is the only stat that's impacted by who the other 9 guys on the court are. Those people are dumb as a post, period.

    I'm tired of cutting slack on this issue. Get a grip on what stats mean. They all have caveats, they ALL are affected by a lot more than just the individual attributed to them, and over the long haul they all tend to show repeatable trends. Few guys go from 40% FG for 5 years to suddenly hitting 55% FG. This is why we look at them and this is why +/- is just as valuable as assists (a subjectively recorded stat btw) or rebounds (a subjectively recorded stat also).


    Sheesh. I love the whole "math and science are evil, black magic trickery" angle people take when presented with facts. Any given +/- certainly can be misleading....just like every other f-bombing thing in the box score, advanced or otherwise.

    Someone posts the +/- and it kicks off discussion of how those numbers came to be and what other factors might have been in play. People show other stats to expand or debate the point. That's normal, healthy and interesting.

    And then someone goes "+/- is a BS stat". The score. They call the score a BS stat. Think about that.
    Plus it's backed up by...watching the tape. Watch it again without the emotion of it being live and look for specific things. Pause and rewind and rewatch in slow motion.

  33. #124
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Downtown baby
    Posts
    12,613

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Miami ended the year with the top 3 +/- guys being
    James
    Wade
    Bosh
    And they were the ONLY HEAT in the net positive (production - 82games.com).

    and guys at the bottom like
    Pittman
    Harris
    Cole
    Howard
    Curry

    Sure sign this stat is crap. I mean what can I really say looking at this? Do I really think Lebron is better than Cole? Come on, this is so misleading. I've seen Cole play and my eyes say that he's worlds better than Lebron, and how could my eyes tell me something that a +/- stat says isn't true?

    When in doubt, I always go with my gut feeling about the truthiness, not with a truth built on the lies of facts/stats. Cole was robbed for MVP.

  34. #125
    yawn cgg's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    Delray Beach, FL
    Age
    30
    Posts
    2,841

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Sarcasm aside, Cole is really bad. Worse than I even thought before I started paying attention. I don't think our team even grasped how bad his defense is until Collison suddenly realized it one game and started to destroy him.

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-05-2012, 03:10 PM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 05-02-2011, 09:10 PM
  3. Marc Stein: Rating the great point-guard play, series by series [ESPN]
    By RoboHicks in forum NBA Headlines (RSS Feeds)
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-27-2009, 01:31 PM
  4. Five-man plus/minus
    By ChicagoJ in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-11-2004, 01:42 PM
  5. plus minus
    By wintermute in forum Indiana Pacers
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-03-2004, 09:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •