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Thread: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

  1. #26
    Intuition over Integers McKeyFan's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    His #'s look much more in line with the other starters versus Orlando, and why would I assume Brand or Scola is better than West? I don't. They're all close, I suppose.
    Come to think of it, didn't he play a good bit of 5 with the second unit? If so, the would explain some things.
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  3. #27

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    When I was making this argument right after the Heat series, a certain poster told me that it was still the starters problem, because they didn't outscore the Heat by enough to make up for the bench play...
    Well, in their defense, if our starters were comprised of LeBron, Wade, and Bosh, it wouldn't matter how bad our bench played...

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Wow. And, if I had to guess (and based off of five-man-unit stats), I would think West's PM is so low because he was in there with Tyler and Lou on occasion.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Its actually kind of surprising that Granger is still +14. He played just about the same amount of minutes as West and was stuck out there with the bench guys often too. Our starting 5 was damn efficient against the Heat. Glad the numbers show that too. I do think our moves will help this. Mahinmi will be nice to have in the middle over Lou. I like Lou, but he wasn't that great when people were attacking the basket, especially when paired with Tyler.
    Last edited by ilive4sports; 07-13-2012 at 05:06 PM.

  8. #30

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Two things Vogel needs to work on this offseason

    1 - Teach the guys how to run the zone, basically lets copy what Carlisle did against them
    2 - Teach the bench not to give up huge runs. Be efficient slow the game down

    If we can work on those and if the guys we have who should improve, 6 out of the first 8 off the bench, then we might have a chance against the Heat. I mean historically Wade or Bosh will be hurt next playoffs. We stand a chance.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    What is wrong with you?

    People like to toss around the 'troll' label at others, and they never pulled this kind of a stunt.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    What is wrong with you?
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    Nothing.

  13. #33

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    For those who cant get the links to work:

    Pacers +/- vs. Miami

    1 Roy Hibbert +26
    2 Paul George +24
    3 George Hill +20
    4 Danny Granger +14
    5 David West -2
    6 Jeff Pendergraph -5
    7 A.J. Price -5
    8 Lance Stephenson-13
    9 Dahntay Jones -34
    10 Louis Amundson -41

    11 Tyler Hansbrough -44
    12 Darren Collison -65
    13 Leandro Barbosa -70


    Pacers +/- in the playoffs, with minutes played >12.1
    1 George Hill +79
    2 David West +76
    3 Paul George +61
    4 Danny Granger +58
    5 Roy Hibbert +51
    6 Tyler Hansbrough -27
    7 Dahntay Jones -35
    8 Louis Amundson -47
    9 Leandro Barbosa -52
    10 Darren Collison -57


    Bold = gone or presumed gone (Barbosa)
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    im only guessing but a Brand Ian front court would be maybe the biggest defensive turn around in one off season possible from Hans and Lou(thus the + - of our bench would of really improved. Plus no more West at C). Our bench defense would of been outstanding and Brand can still PnR would of been a great fit with DJ on offense.

    2.1 just makes me cringe given away.

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  16. #35
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    The reason why West's +/- was negative in the Miami series is he played bad.

    Predictably he produced his usual below average rebounding and defense, but the real issue was when he wasn't able to score. For 3 games out of the series the Heat were able to leave SF Battier on West which completely nullified his offense. There is no way a team should get away with putting Battier on a PF who can supposedly score the ball. The Heat didn't even have to put LBJ on West anymore.

    That's just the truth by the way. I know I'm going to get a lot of venom spewed my way for the simple fact that there is a quite a few people on this board who believe West is one of the top three players on the Pacers (no) or he's the MVP of the Pacers. (uh NO.)

    West is a great leader who taught this team how to win. But when it comes to making the next step or winning in the playoffs, talent and performance is always paramount. Had we never had West I'm quite certain this team would have struggled to learn how to turn into a winning ball club. However, once they've figured that out, West's most valuable attribute somewhat become meaningless. Because now? The Pacers need a powerforward who can rebound, who can matchup with opposing powerforwards, not be a liability defensively, and help protect the rim. West can't do any of that.

    For the record, West is one of my favorite players and always will be. Just being realistic about what he brings to this club right now.
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  18. #36
    NaptownSeth is all feel Naptown_Seth's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Wow. Think this was part of the thought process?

    http://bkref.com/tiny/Zn48C
    I don't get it. What's the problem?






    Those stats just punched me in the crotch and setback years of therapy. Not that we didn't know it, but the reminder in hard black and white...well it was just mean of you really.

  19. #37
    George Hill Apologist mattie's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    One last point: We all know this team needs some additional scoring. We can't just look at the starts plus/minus and think a simple upgrade of the bench will do it.

    You have to consider that the Pacers played a completely different team than the Celtics or Thunder played. Bosh was out against the Pacers and completely changed that team. Wade/LBJ had to completely learn how to adapt to not having Bosh spread the defense, and that was just one more glaring hole in their starting lineup. It really took them all of the Pacers series and half of the Boston series to figure out how to account for Bosh's loss.

    You have to realize that Miami at full strength would have probably done a much better job against Indiana's starters.
    Find me on the internets @mattiecolin

    Read it and weep:

    When George Hill is above 15% usage we won 73.5% of games. Below 15% usage we won 61.9%

  20. #38
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those numbers would mean getting Brand or Scola would have also helped quite a bit, as West was the glaring issue on the starting unit.
    I don't know if that is a fair conclusion. "glaring issue" that is. West had to cover a lot of roles as Hibbert was, in some games, in foul trouble and held out. Plus he had to cover for Tyler who was ineffectual meaning West found himself coming in with the bench players, which dragged down his +/-. West played more minutes than anyone else on the team in that series, including Danny. 26 minutes (> 4 min/game) more than Roy.

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  22. #39
    The Last Great Pacer BlueNGold's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Those numbers aligned almost exactly with my thoughts weeks ago. I'm only surprised Roy's numbers aren't higher. I said in another thread that it was a layup drill when Roy sat.

    I must say I have enjoyed the last year of sanity. The team is making smart moves. No, we are not blessed with superstar talent, but TPTB are doing the best they can with the assets available.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    His #'s look much more in line with the other starters versus Orlando, and why would I assume Brand or Scola is better than West? I don't. They're all close, I suppose.
    I don't see how bringing Brand or Scola in would make for good team cohesiveness considering neither of them seem ready to settle for a role off the bench. I don't think West wants to make that move either.

    By the way, thanks for the post. Interesting numbers.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by mattie View Post
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    One last point: We all know this team needs some additional scoring. We can't just look at the starts plus/minus and think a simple upgrade of the bench will do it.

    You have to consider that the Pacers played a completely different team than the Celtics or Thunder played. Bosh was out against the Pacers and completely changed that team. Wade/LBJ had to completely learn how to adapt to not having Bosh spread the defense, and that was just one more glaring hole in their starting lineup. It really took them all of the Pacers series and half of the Boston series to figure out how to account for Bosh's loss.

    You have to realize that Miami at full strength would have probably done a much better job against Indiana's starters.
    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we leading the whole game till Bosh's injury?

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  27. #42

    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    (My first post hi )
    Barbosa was a black hole on offense and defense during the series

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by vnzla81 View Post
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    Nothing.
    It was completely out of line.

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  30. #44
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we leading the whole game till Bosh's injury?
    Yep. We were up by 5 at the half I believe.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Anyone who is surprised by this should rewatch the games. That's my only response anymore to anyone who disagrees with the obvious.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by pogi View Post
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    Correct me if I'm wrong, but weren't we leading the whole game till Bosh's injury?
    Yup, them having Bosh would not have made a difference, if anything it would have helped us.


    Anyways I put the majority of the negatives on the shoulders of Barbosa. If it wasn't for Barbosa all of the starters (except for George obviously) would have had at least another +10 or more. He was the worst player in the series who got significant minutes. It wasn't likely that the bench was going to be in the positive constantly playing against either Wade or LeBron or both, but it wouldn't have been as bad if it wasn't for Barbosa.

  33. #47
    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Naptown_Seth View Post
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    Those stats just punched me in the crotch and setback years of therapy. Not that we didn't know it
    Yeah, like others have said, anybody watching the series saw the same thing. But it was so obvious in the moment that I didn't bother checking the numbers. Looking at them again after all this time just drives home the point that we really were seeing what we thought we were seeing.
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  34. #48
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Slick Pinkham View Post
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    For those who cant get the links to work:
    Thanks man! I meant to come back and post that once it became clear the links were buggy, but I've not been online since then.

    I've chosen to believe that the lack of working links is what vnzla was referring to in his impressively succinct post. Not sure what's up with bbref's tiny url engine, but like I said they worked when I posted 'em.

    EDIT: And actually, they're working for me now. Weird.
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  35. #49
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those numbers would mean getting Brand or Scola would have also helped quite a bit, as West was the glaring issue on the starting unit.
    No the glaring issue is that we didn't have any big men to come in and contribute so West had to play a lot of minutes. He was gassed in the Heat series.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Eleazar View Post
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    Yup, them having Bosh would not have made a difference, if anything it would have helped us.


    Anyways I put the majority of the negatives on the shoulders of Barbosa. If it wasn't for Barbosa all of the starters (except for George obviously) would have had at least another +10 or more. He was the worst player in the series who got significant minutes. It wasn't likely that the bench was going to be in the positive constantly playing against either Wade or LeBron or both, but it wouldn't have been as bad if it wasn't for Barbosa.
    The Heat not having Bosh would have helped the Pacers. More utter nonsense...... If they have Bosh they win in five games......

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