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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Wow. Think this was part of the thought process?

    http://bkref.com/tiny/Zn48C
    Last edited by Anthem; 07-14-2012 at 07:54 PM.
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    White and Nerdy Anthem's Avatar
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Definitely says something about the "The starters are the problem" meme.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Definitely says something about the "The starters are the problem" meme.
    When I was making this argument right after the Heat series, a certain poster told me that it was still the starters problem, because they didn't outscore the Heat by enough to make up for the bench play...

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    This had been an issue all season, by most metrics our starters were really good. Our bench has been crap.

    When people said we had good depth that was a misnomer, we had good 'balance". There is a difference. Hopefully with the roster additions we can now say we have depth as well.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Infinite MAN_force View Post
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    This had been an issue all season, by most metrics our starters were really good. Our bench has been crap.

    When people said we had good depth that was a misnomer, we had good 'balance". There is a difference. Hopefully with the roster additions we can now say we have depth as well.
    To be fair most of that "we have a good bench" was when Hill was on the 2nd unit and before we picked up Barbosa.

    Barbosa appeared to be a good pickup, but I don't think he turned out that way.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Since86 View Post
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    When I was making this argument right after the Heat series, a certain poster told me that it was still the starters problem, because they didn't outscore the Heat by enough to make up for the bench play...
    Well, in their defense, if our starters were comprised of LeBron, Wade, and Bosh, it wouldn't matter how bad our bench played...

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Good stuff. Granted this is just one series, so I wouldn't read a ton into it.

    That said it is pretty obvious the bench needs to be improved.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    Good stuff. Granted this is just one series, so I wouldn't read a ton into it.
    Here's both rounds 1 and 2... Magic and Heat. I had it hide everybody who played 12 or fewer minutes, so Lance/AJ/Penderwall are out.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/ZXBIo

    Pretty striking.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Here's both rounds 1 and 2... Magic and Heat. I had it hide everybody who played 12 or fewer minutes, so Lance/AJ/Penderwall are out.

    http://bkref.com/tiny/ZXBIo

    Pretty striking.
    I get it. Our bench stinks. That said, I am not sure about Vogel putting them all in at one time for the most part. That certainly did not help the cause.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by joew8302 View Post
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    I get it. Our bench stinks. That said, I am not sure about Vogel putting them all in at one time for the most part. That certainly did not help the cause.
    That worked until we went against Miami, and Vogal was slow to adjust.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    That's partly where the series was lost. Vogel substituted like it was the regular season. Spoes made subs like a Riley clone playing only the number necessary 6-7 players per game.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Wow. Think this was part of the thought process?

    http://bkref.com/tiny/Zn48C
    Yeah some relevance, everyone could see Barbosa was killing us when he was in the game, not only was his shot not going down, but he was playing horrible defense against Wade, also a lot of our bench was in when Barbosa was in so that also alters the stats for them a little as well.
    Why so SERIOUS

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Those numbers would mean getting Brand or Scola would have also helped quite a bit, as West was the glaring issue on the starting unit.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those numbers would mean getting Brand or Scola would have also helped quite a bit, as West was the glaring issue on the starting unit.
    His #'s look much more in line with the other starters versus Orlando, and why would I assume Brand or Scola is better than West? I don't. They're all close, I suppose.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    I imagine part of the problem with West's # is he spends some of his time as a backup C playing with Tyler.
    Yup, which is reflected in the minutes played. West played 24.7 more minutes than Hibbert in the series, which almost perfectly corresponds to Lou and Tyler's playing time (Tyler played 20.8 minutes more than Lou did).

    The Pacers 5 bench players in the rotation (Collison, Barbosa, Hansbrough, Amundson, Jones) played 405.4 minutes in the series. They were a combined -254 plus/minus.

    To think about it another way, if the whole team had played at the pace the bench did the Pacers would have lost by 30.07 points per game.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    His #'s look much more in line with the other starters versus Orlando, and why would I assume Brand or Scola is better than West? I don't. They're all close, I suppose.
    Come to think of it, didn't he play a good bit of 5 with the second unit? If so, the would explain some things.
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Hicks View Post
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    His #'s look much more in line with the other starters versus Orlando, and why would I assume Brand or Scola is better than West? I don't. They're all close, I suppose.
    I don't see how bringing Brand or Scola in would make for good team cohesiveness considering neither of them seem ready to settle for a role off the bench. I don't think West wants to make that move either.

    By the way, thanks for the post. Interesting numbers.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those numbers would mean getting Brand or Scola would have also helped quite a bit, as West was the glaring issue on the starting unit.
    I don't know if that is a fair conclusion. "glaring issue" that is. West had to cover a lot of roles as Hibbert was, in some games, in foul trouble and held out. Plus he had to cover for Tyler who was ineffectual meaning West found himself coming in with the bench players, which dragged down his +/-. West played more minutes than anyone else on the team in that series, including Danny. 26 minutes (> 4 min/game) more than Roy.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by McKeyFan View Post
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    Those numbers would mean getting Brand or Scola would have also helped quite a bit, as West was the glaring issue on the starting unit.
    No the glaring issue is that we didn't have any big men to come in and contribute so West had to play a lot of minutes. He was gassed in the Heat series.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Major Cold View Post
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    No the glaring issue is that we didn't have any big men to come in and contribute so West had to play a lot of minutes. He was gassed in the Heat series.
    I'm thinking if we would have had a healthy Foster things would have been a lot different.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Link not working for me, whats it say?

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Link not working for me, whats it say?
    Four Pacers starters ended up with positive plus minus for the series including three of them with +20 or better (Hibbert, George, and Hill). West was the only negative, and he was -2. The bench players were all negative, and the two bench players who played over 80 minutes in the series (Collison and Barbosa) had a -65 and a -70.

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Speed View Post
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    Link not working for me, whats it say?
    Weird, now it's not working for me either. It worked when I posted it.

    Here, try it for yourself.

    http://www.basketball-reference.com/...nus_finder.cgi
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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by Anthem View Post
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    Wow. Think this was part of the thought process?

    http://bkref.com/tiny/Zn48C
    I thought Hollibags over at ESPN said DC had the HIGHEST playoff per average of PG's
    Sittin on top of the world!

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    Default Re: Have you seen the plus-minus from the Miami series?

    Quote Originally Posted by 90'sNBARocked View Post
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    I thought Hollibags over at ESPN said DC had the HIGHEST playoff per average of PG's
    Have you seen Chad Ford's off season grades for the Pacers? He writes more about the team than any other team in the league, but it mostly is about overpaying for players and bad moves on the bench.

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